What is your opinion on patriotism and nationalism?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 09, 2014 3:25 PM GMT
    Is it awesome and wonderful or stupid and pointless?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 09, 2014 4:54 PM GMT
    Xavier92 saidIs it awesome and wonderful or stupid and pointless?


    Elements of all four.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 4433

    Feb 09, 2014 7:09 PM GMT
    I think it is a tool used by people in power to create followers. It is drilled into our heads from such a young age that it becomes part of your hard-wiring and hard to escape from. Much like religion. Now I don't have a problem with loyalty, but loyalty with responsibilities like using your brain and conscience to keep the group to which you feel loyal acting in an honorable fashion. And having the presence of mind to dissociate from people or a group acting dishonorably. When Republicans blather "Freedom isn't free," they are right but unfortunately it is meant as a call for mindless following, as in the Bush/Cheney years. Or the Hitler years. What it should mean is risking the warmth and security of association with a group by advocating a different path when necessary. And risking membership.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 09, 2014 7:15 PM GMT
    4Will said
    Xavier92 saidIs it awesome and wonderful or stupid and pointless?


    Elements of all four.


    This. A state without some basic unifying factors has no support, no loyalty, and is on the brink of civil war, if no there already. A state (or individuals) that go overboard with nationalism is abusive and sets the stage for racial discrimination and manipulation of what it means to be a citizen.
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    Feb 09, 2014 7:28 PM GMT
    It has its good and bad points, like everything.
  • HottJoe

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    Feb 09, 2014 8:54 PM GMT
    It's a marketing campaign to sell hotdogs and pop.
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    Feb 09, 2014 9:06 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidIt's a marketing campaign to sell hotdogs and pop.
    And American flags that are made in China. icon_lol.gif

    Republican%2Bflag.jpg
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    Feb 09, 2014 11:00 PM GMT
    Funny how the English are on this matter.

    They adore the Queen and the rest of the Royal Family, and up to a million individuals can cram onto the Mall, leading up to Buckingham Palace, whenever the Firm celebrates a special occasion. On Her Majesty's Diamond Jubilee in 2012, huge crowds stood for hours in the pouring rain to watch the pageant on the Thames (even though Her Maj did not seem to enjoy the experience due to the cold and wet weather.)

    As for our Government, our Cabinet consist of The Old Boys - ex public school attendees, such as Eton, attended by our current Prime Minister who, along with the Exchequer, were members of the notorious Bullington Club of Oxford University. Yet a large percentage of the English population adore them and are ready to vote them back in at the next General Election in 2015.

    As with the above posts, all this is tied in with the rigid class system, with many of the working class causing violence in the football (soccer) stands and street clashes, particularly with the English Defence League, who want to see all non-caucasians to leave the country, a manifesto also held by the British National Party, a large proportion from the white working class.

    To me, nationalism is just a convenient way of expressing hypocrisy, yet where the monarchy is concerned, does unite the nation. Ironic but true.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Feb 09, 2014 11:01 PM GMT
    xrichx said
    HottJoe saidIt's a marketing campaign to sell hotdogs and pop.
    And American flags that are made in China. icon_lol.gif

    Republican%2Bflag.jpg


    Not to mention Chinese flags made in America.
    a.baa-Chinas-flag-made-in-USA.jpg
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    Feb 09, 2014 11:02 PM GMT
    DCEric said
    xrichx said
    HottJoe saidIt's a marketing campaign to sell hotdogs and pop.
    And American flags that are made in China. icon_lol.gif

    Republican%2Bflag.jpg


    Not to mention Chinese flags made in America.
    a.baa-Chinas-flag-made-in-USA.jpg
    LOL. That's awesome. icon_lol.gif
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    Feb 10, 2014 6:22 AM GMT
    Destinharbor saidI think it is a tool used by people in power to create followers. It is drilled into our heads from such a young age that it becomes part of your hard-wiring and hard to escape from. Much like religion. Now I don't have a problem with loyalty, but loyalty with responsibilities like using your brain and conscience to keep the group to which you feel loyal acting in an honorable fashion. And having the presence of mind to dissociate from people or a group acting dishonorably. When Republicans blather "Freedom isn't free," they are right but unfortunately it is meant as a call for mindless following, as in the Bush/Cheney years. Or the Hitler years. What it should mean is risking the warmth and security of association with a group by advocating a different path when necessary. And risking membership.

    This.
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    Feb 10, 2014 6:28 AM GMT
    people having education and self discovery are less likely to go over board on the patriotism and or nationalism

  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Feb 10, 2014 6:28 AM GMT
    shortbutsweet said
    Destinharbor saidI think it is a tool used by people in power to create followers. It is drilled into our heads from such a young age that it becomes part of your hard-wiring and hard to escape from. Much like religion. Now I don't have a problem with loyalty, but loyalty with responsibilities like using your brain and conscience to keep the group to which you feel loyal acting in an honorable fashion. And having the presence of mind to dissociate from people or a group acting dishonorably. When Republicans blather "Freedom isn't free," they are right but unfortunately it is meant as a call for mindless following, as in the Bush/Cheney years. Or the Hitler years. What it should mean is risking the warmth and security of association with a group by advocating a different path when necessary. And risking membership.

    This.

    Agreed.
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Feb 10, 2014 7:10 AM GMT
    It's sort of like football and rooting for the home team
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    Feb 10, 2014 7:37 AM GMT
    Well, we all need cannon-fodder from time to time. Retards who will march into machine gun nests, just so George Bush and Billy Graham can achieve orgasm.
  • Fokko

    Posts: 49

    Feb 10, 2014 8:33 AM GMT
    It's really strange to me how people use both terms as synonyms, they are quite diffrent. It's like to compare romantic sex and rape. Well, they sure both involve humping, but are quite different in their nature.
    Patriotism is about love for your country and society you came from, it's to want to do something that will make your country a better place. It's a good thing. Nationalist also kind of loves their country, but it's the love that is obsesive and destructive.
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    Feb 10, 2014 2:47 PM GMT
    Destinharbor saidI think it is a tool used by people in power to create followers. It is drilled into our heads from such a young age that it becomes part of your hard-wiring and hard to escape from. Much like religion. Now I don't have a problem with loyalty, but loyalty with responsibilities like using your brain and conscience to keep the group to which you feel loyal acting in an honorable fashion. And having the presence of mind to dissociate from people or a group acting dishonorably. When Republicans blather "Freedom isn't free," they are right but unfortunately it is meant as a call for mindless following, as in the Bush/Cheney years. Or the Hitler years. What it should mean is risking the warmth and security of association with a group by advocating a different path when necessary. And risking membership.




    Good points.
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    Feb 10, 2014 2:54 PM GMT
    when i was in grade school, I opted out of saying the Pledge of Allegiance EVERY DAY and wanted to cry watching all those kids being indoctrinated into that fake line of bullshit
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    Feb 10, 2014 4:11 PM GMT
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/World_government

    For I dipt into the future, far as human eye could see,
    Saw a Vision of the world, and all the wonder that would be;
    ...
    Till the war-drum throbb’d no longer, and
    the battle-flags were furled
    In the Parliament of man, the Federation of the world.
    There the common sense of most shall hold
    a fretful realm in awe,
    And the kindly earth shall slumber, lapt in universal law.
    ~~Alfred, Lord Tennyson, Locksley Hall, 1842

    I advocate world government because I am convinced that there is no other possible way of eliminating the most terrible danger in which man has ever found himself. The objective of avoiding total destruction must have priority over any other objective.~~Albert Einstein, 1947

    In my opinion the only salvation for civilization and the human race lies in the creation of a world government, with security of nations founded upon law. As long as sovereign states continue to have separate armaments and armament secrets, new world wars will be inevitable.~~Albert Einstein

    There is no salvation for civilization, or even the human race, other than the creation of a world government.~~Albert Einstein

    It will be just as easy for nations to get along in a republic of the world as it is for you to get along in the republic of the United States. [If] Kansas and Colorado have a quarrel over the water in the Arkansas river they don't call out the national guard in each state and go to war over it. They bring suit in the Supreme Court of the United States and abide by the decision. There isn't a reason in the world why we can't do that internationally.~~Harry S. Truman

    I believe at some future day, the nations of the earth will agree on some sort of congress which will take cognizance of international questions of difficulty and whose decisions will be as binding as the decisions of the Supreme Court are upon us.~~Ulysses S. Grant
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    Feb 10, 2014 4:35 PM GMT
    Countries and ethnicity are largely artificial constructs used to control the masses as has been stated here... as someone said in another thread recently, in order to have an "us" you need to have a "them".

    I always liked this quote from Chess:

    "Let men's petty nations tear themselves apart
    My land's only borders lie around my heart"
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    Feb 10, 2014 4:37 PM GMT
    Best used in wartime. Otherwise not of much benefit.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Feb 10, 2014 4:38 PM GMT
    somersault saidwhen i was in grade school, I opted out of saying the Pledge of Allegiance EVERY DAY and wanted to cry watching all those kids being indoctrinated into that fake line of bullshit

    Aww, that's kind of adorable. I picture you making this face:icon_mad.gif
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 4433

    Feb 10, 2014 4:39 PM GMT
    theantijock saidhttp://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/World_government

    For I dipt into the future, far as human eye could see,
    Saw a Vision of the world, and all the wonder that would be;
    ...
    Till the war-drum throbb’d no longer, and
    the battle-flags were furled
    In the Parliament of man, the Federation of the world.
    There the common sense of most shall hold
    a fretful realm in awe,
    And the kindly earth shall slumber, lapt in universal law.
    ~~Alfred, Lord Tennyson, Locksley Hall, 1842

    I advocate world government because I am convinced that there is no other possible way of eliminating the most terrible danger in which man has ever found himself. The objective of avoiding total destruction must have priority over any other objective.~~Albert Einstein, 1947

    In my opinion the only salvation for civilization and the human race lies in the creation of a world government, with security of nations founded upon law. As long as sovereign states continue to have separate armaments and armament secrets, new world wars will be inevitable.~~Albert Einstein

    There is no salvation for civilization, or even the human race, other than the creation of a world government.~~Albert Einstein

    It will be just as easy for nations to get along in a republic of the world as it is for you to get along in the republic of the United States. [If] Kansas and Colorado have a quarrel over the water in the Arkansas river they don't call out the national guard in each state and go to war over it. They bring suit in the Supreme Court of the United States and abide by the decision. There isn't a reason in the world why we can't do that internationally.~~Harry S. Truman

    I believe at some future day, the nations of the earth will agree on some sort of congress which will take cognizance of international questions of difficulty and whose decisions will be as binding as the decisions of the Supreme Court are upon us.~~Ulysses S. Grant

    Interesting and good stuff. But I'm afraid the one issue that makes all this impossible is religion. Because it hard wires people to irrationality and creates mindless followers. Intelligence and reason can't compete once the indoctrination is complete usually by about age thirteen.
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    Feb 10, 2014 6:15 PM GMT
    theantijock saidhttp://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/World_government

    For I dipt into the future, far as human eye could see,
    Saw a Vision of the world, and all the wonder that would be;
    ...
    Till the war-drum throbb’d no longer, and
    the battle-flags were furled
    In the Parliament of man, the Federation of the world.
    There the common sense of most shall hold
    a fretful realm in awe,
    And the kindly earth shall slumber, lapt in universal law.
    ~~Alfred, Lord Tennyson, Locksley Hall, 1842

    I advocate world government because I am convinced that there is no other possible way of eliminating the most terrible danger in which man has ever found himself. The objective of avoiding total destruction must have priority over any other objective.~~Albert Einstein, 1947

    In my opinion the only salvation for civilization and the human race lies in the creation of a world government, with security of nations founded upon law. As long as sovereign states continue to have separate armaments and armament secrets, new world wars will be inevitable.~~Albert Einstein

    There is no salvation for civilization, or even the human race, other than the creation of a world government.~~Albert Einstein

    It will be just as easy for nations to get along in a republic of the world as it is for you to get along in the republic of the United States. [If] Kansas and Colorado have a quarrel over the water in the Arkansas river they don't call out the national guard in each state and go to war over it. They bring suit in the Supreme Court of the United States and abide by the decision. There isn't a reason in the world why we can't do that internationally.~~Harry S. Truman

    I believe at some future day, the nations of the earth will agree on some sort of congress which will take cognizance of international questions of difficulty and whose decisions will be as binding as the decisions of the Supreme Court are upon us.~~Ulysses S. Grant



    Are talking about a new world order?