Can Gays. Bi's, Lesbians and Transgenders go to Heaven?

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    Dec 19, 2008 4:50 AM GMT
    I was appalled when I recently read where certain Bible verses have been modified by Christian publishers. I was raised as a very strict Southern protestant. While growing up, my siblings and I were required by our parents to go to Church every Sunday regardless. Although many contemporary commentaries and interpretative versions of the Bible have been published, biblical readings and lessons in a majority of churches are typically based on the original King James Version of the Bible. However, the following article really upset me. I can't believe that anyone would actually have the audacity to change the Holy Bible based on prejudice or personal beliefs. Now I am uncertain about the content of the King James Bible. What else has been changed by authors and publishers since it was orginally written? Based on this, then do you think Gays, Bi''s, Lesbians and Transgenders can go to Heaven? Or will it be Hell, nowhere or somewhere else? icon_eek.gif :

    Ann Arbor, MI; June 10, 2008 [/b] A gay man has filed suit against two Christian publishers over claims they altered passages in the Bible to depict homosexuality as sinful.[b/] by Ann Turner.

    Author Bradley Fowler is seeking $60 million in damages from Zondervan Corp. and $10 million from Thomas Nelson Publishing, charging that the publishers are guilty of malice, negligence and violation of his civil rights. Fowler filed suit in the Eastern District Federal Court of Ann Arbor, MI on July 7, claiming Zondervan Corp. misled consumers and Christian Bible readers into believing “homosexuals would not inherit the kingdom of God,” according to a press statement released by Fowler on Wednesday. Fowler filed an earlier suit against publisher Thomas Nelson and its New King James Bible in June over similar accusations of language alteration in the text.

    While conducting research for a book he was writing, Fowler says he “grow concerned about the variation of scriptures from one bible to the next.” According to Fowler, he was “flabbergast to find out this Christian publisher had imposed its own opinions upon religious sectors, by fraudulently implementing the terminology -homosexual- to its Bible; them removed the term from its 1994 Holy Bible—without informing the general public.” One of the text alterations Fowler attributes to Thomas Nelson Publishing comes from Corinthians 6:9. In the text from a 1976 Bible version by Thomas Nelson, Fowler claims the passage reads: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.” In the text from a 1982 version by Thomas Nelson, Fowler claims the passage has been changed to: “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodimites.”

    Finally, in a 2001 version, Fowler claims the passage was changed yet again to read: “Surely you know that the people who do wrong will not inherit God's kingdom. Do not be fooled, those who sin sexually, worship idols, take part in adultery, those who are male prostitutes, or men who have sexual relations with other men, those who steal, are greedy, get drunk, lie about others, or rob these people will not inherit God's kingdom.” In a statement released to the press,

    Fowler says that imposing terminology that “conveys a message of hate and discrimination towards a particular sector or group of individuals, solely based on bias opinions” has caused countless homosexuals to be “assaulted, discriminated against, and or, even murdered.” Fowler claims that Christian’s historically believe biblical scriptures are the “authentic word of god” and that the alterations of passages by Bible publishers to depict homosexuality as a sin is a willful manipulation of society into “mistreating homosexuals.” In a press statement reported by NewsMax.com, Zondervan Corp. wrote that the company relies “on the scholarly judgment of the highly respected and credible translation committees behind each translation and never alter the text of the translations we are licensed to publish… We only publish credible translations produced by credible Biblical scholars.” Company spokesperson Tara Powers told The Christian Post: "Since Zondervan does not translate the Bible or own the copyright for any of the translations we publish, we are not in a position to comment on the merits of how a word should or should not be translated.” The U.S. District Judge presiding over Fowler’s case against Thomas Nelson Publishing, Julian Abele Cook Jr., has stated the court “has some very genuine concerns about the nature and efficacy of [Fowler’s] claims.” The court has refused to appoint a lawyer for his suit against Thomas Nelson, according to The Grand Rapids Press. The author, who is currently working on publi
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    Jan 11, 2009 11:12 AM GMT
    I'm not going to read your entire post (sorry) but I will say this:

    Most, if not all, christians do not practice their religion as it pertains to the bible or at least their own religion. Think about it. If we are in the end of days as the christians believe and revelations is happening then where do you think the anti-christ would be?

    That might be why we see so much hatred from religion and virtually nothing good. For instance Prop. 8. Couldn't all that money been better spent on something more beneficial than stopping gay marriage?

    And also when the scriptures were found the different religions looked over them and picked and chose what they wanted. That's why there are missing books from the bible and some similarities between them. One of them is supposed to talk about jesus as a child and how he grew up.

    Changing bible passages isn't anything new. Heck, the church at one point didn't want anyone to be able to read because of it. Then you have the different translations... Since the church is responsible for most of the torture devices I'm surprised anyone still follows it.

    Anyway if god is almighty, knows everything, created everything then ask yourself this question. Why would an entity that created and knows everything put the concept of sodomy in the world if he didn't approve if it?

    Also at the beginning of the bible it says that god created man in his image. Some versions even say 'spirit of god'. I'm sure that god doesn't have a physical form. Why a religion based on spirituality can't see past the physical form is beyond me.

    So to answer your question:

    Yes, gays, bi's, lesbians, and transgenders can go to heaven.
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    Jan 11, 2009 11:41 AM GMT
    COLORED TEXT GOES HERE
    If you Love God, and do right by people...Well Heaven will be waiting for you, but those who judge, and are malicious, and yous religion to hate...Well we all know what happens to them...
    --John
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    Jan 11, 2009 11:50 AM GMT
    The ones who hate will stand in envy at heaven's gate
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    Jan 11, 2009 12:04 PM GMT
    God, I hope not. Not hell either.

    I bet there isn't even sex in heaven... unless it's with houris.
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    Jan 11, 2009 12:56 PM GMT
    My father is a minister so I know his views as to me and heaven. I have told him, my mother and other family memebers that I am ok. Im a good person, still go to church (when I can) and I will be in heaven right along side them. I tell dont pray for me to be straight, pray for me to be happy.
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    Jan 11, 2009 2:23 PM GMT
    "Can Gays. Bi's, Lesbians and Transgenders go to Heaven?"

    No, but we can go to Key West, and SF Pride.
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    Jan 11, 2009 2:57 PM GMT
    seriously who wants to?? everyone knows all the cool people went to hell!! do you really want to be sitting up there with a bunch of puritanical tight asses while al the cool people are running around the airconditioned malls and theaters and all the other fun stuff down in hell?
  • CAtoFL

    Posts: 834

    Jan 11, 2009 3:09 PM GMT
    gymguy1 saidMy father is a minister so I know his views as to me and heaven .... I tell [them] dont pray for me to be straight, pray for me to be happy.


    That is a beautiful sentiment well said!

  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Jan 11, 2009 3:18 PM GMT
    There are over 1300 translations with variations to the Bible. He won't win because of two key points:

    1) He won't be able to show that he was physically or mentally injured by the changes

    2) The Bible is not an authority on civil law and therefore can be dismissed by any reader.
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    Jan 11, 2009 3:26 PM GMT
    He should be sued for wasting the courts time! Really!icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jan 11, 2009 3:30 PM GMT
    Hotatlgreatguy wroteI can't believe that anyone would actually have the audacity to change the Holy Bible based on prejudice or personal beliefs. Now I am uncertain about the content of the King James Bible. What else has been changed by authors and publishers since it was orginally written?

    andOne of the text alterations Fowler attributes to Thomas Nelson Publishing comes from Corinthians 6:9. In the text from a 1976 Bible version by Thomas Nelson, Fowler claims the passage reads: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.”


    There is no translation that perfectly conveys the meaning and substance of one language in another. Every translation project raises questions that a translator is forced to answer based on his or her interpretation of the meaning.

    Here's an example from the Corinthian's passage you quoted. In the Vulgate, Jerome uses the words "molles" and "masculorum concubitores" and these are rendered as "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind" in the 1976 version. Bear in mind, Jerome was translating from Greek, so his text is also an interpretation.

    "Molles" is an adjective which is being used as a noun here. Think of it like the word "meek" in "The meek shall inherit the Earth". Like many words in Latin, "molles" has several meanings: easily moveable, pliant, flexible, supple, soft, tender, delicate, gentle, mild, and pleasant. The traditional choice of "effeminate" probably reflects Jerome's use of the word elsewhere, or the original Greek, or some other contemporary usage.

    "Concubitores masculorum" in English is "bedfellows of men." The Douai-Rheims version translates that as "liers with mankind."

    Notice also that "fornicators" are included in that list. Nowadays, that's anyone who has sex outside of marriage (i.e., practically the whole world). In Jerome's time, it was people who slept with prostitutes.

    Translation matters aside, the greater question is whether Paul's opinion should still guide the way we live in light of what we have learned about human nature in the last 1900 years.
  • Delivis

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    Jan 11, 2009 3:33 PM GMT
    Nope, they can not get into heaven. No one can. We all go down the river Stix.
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    Jan 11, 2009 3:58 PM GMT
    The idea that the Bible can't be mistranslated or used for political reasons is ridiculous. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that the Bible was used to justify slavery.

    Many books that were left out of the bible because they tell a very different story, such as the Gospel of Judas or the Gospel of Thomas.

    Here are two quotes from the Gospel of Thomas:Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

    22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."

    They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"

    Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom].


    Wikipedia has a good entry on Thomas and here's a good quote:In the Thomas gospel, Jesus is a spiritual teacher, and he is offering everyone the opportunity to live (Saying 4) a life that goes beyond death (Saying 1), to become the ruler of their own lives (Saying 2) and thus to know themselves (Saying 3) and their legacy of being the children of "the living Father" (Saying 3). These goals are presented in the image of "entering the Kingdom" by the methodology of insight that goes beyond duality. (Saying 22). The Gospel of Thomas shows no concern for doctrines such as "God", "original sin", "Christ", "divinity," etc.

    The Gospel of Thomas is mystical and emphasizes a direct and unmediated experience of the truth of life. In Thomas v.108, Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become as I am; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him." Furthermore, salvation is personal and found through spiritual (psychological) introspection. In Thomas v.70, Jesus says, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not bring it forth, what you do not have within you will kill you." As such, this form of salvation is idiosyncratic and without literal explanation unless read from a psychological perspective related to Self vs. ego. In Thomas v.3, Jesus says,[24]

    ...the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty.


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    Jan 11, 2009 5:01 PM GMT
    gymguy1 saidMy father is a minister so I know his views as to me and heaven. I have told him, my mother and other family memebers that I am ok. Im a good person, still go to church (when I can) and I will be in heaven right along side them. I tell dont pray for me to be straight, pray for me to be happy.


    I'm with you on that...similar situation, and same points of view.

    As others have posted, I'm with them and the Bible when it comes to who gets into Heaven. Good people get a good result in good time.
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    Jan 11, 2009 5:04 PM GMT
    cartoonsyear_10.jpg

    oh, the irony.
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    Jan 11, 2009 5:13 PM GMT
    chungo44 saidseriously who wants to?? everyone knows all the cool people went to hell!! do you really want to be sitting up there with a bunch of puritanical tight asses while al the cool people are running around the airconditioned malls and theaters and all the other fun stuff down in hell?


    Haha too true man.

    If this is really a concern... take it up with you're priest or whatever, maybe he'll bend you over and tell you "no, homo's don't go to heaven," while doing you up the ass.

    For me, I can't love a "God" who doesn't love me. If the piece of shit Bible that everyone is living by says that there is a huge collective group of people that God thinks is not worthy of a divine destination after death... then fuck God for even putting us on earth.

    People defining the Bible as a way of life is the sole reason why I am becoming athiest... it's all bull shit anyways.

    Belief is not determined by people that lived thousnds of years ago... Live your life NOW and you won't have to worry about here you go when you die. And if you are still worried, Hell isn't such a bad place after living with vile people on Earth...
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    Jan 11, 2009 5:33 PM GMT
    What Christians seem to fail to EVER recall is that God is not a respecter of persons. He doesn't care whether you're gay, straight, g0y, bi, transgenders or other. The only thing He cares about (according to Jesus Christ) is whether we 1. Love Him and 2. Love His people. (And love, according to Jesus Christ, works no ill towards another)

    That's it. Two commandments, not however many Falwell claims there are.

    Then you die and Jesus does his ultimate sacrifice thing for you and you're good to go.

    By this standard the question should really be, can fundamentalist really get into Heaven? With so much focused hatred on their fellow man?
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Jan 11, 2009 5:43 PM GMT
    This is kind of ridiculous.

    Language is constantly changing, and there are always cultural differences regarding the use of language. The concept for homosexuality as a defined orientation and lifestyle did not exist in ancient times, and as a result, there is no word in Biblical Greek or Hebrew for "homosexual" or "homosexuality." In fact, the idea of "sodomy" referring to a heinous sexual act did not occur until many centuries after the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was first recorded.

    The Bible has been an evolution of poor translations and changed meanings from one generation to the next. Today, nearly one hundred and fifty different versions exist of the "Word of God" - and that's not even including sets of books like the Catholic Apocrypha, the Gospel of Thomas, the Second Gospel of Mark, and other "non-inspired" books that make "outrageous" statements.

    Why have certain books and translations been chosen by men? Some do have historical reasons. But many are simply ignored because they're against organized religion. Not very profitable if you're a "church" relying on a stable cash flow. Or they do things like trace the lineage of Christ and Mary Magdelene forward. Not very helpful if your church is pro-chastity and against ministers having children.

    Which books have been chosen and how items have been translated have always been subject to the interpretation of the translator.

    Is it really necessary to have a lawsuit over this though?
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    Jan 11, 2009 5:54 PM GMT
    The Church has been manipulating the contents of the Bible to fit their current agenda and cultural views since the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

    Even the KJV, (which I only read a couple of years ago since English is my second language icon_razz.gif) was designed in the 17th Century to better match the current attitudes, moral code and dogma of the Church of England.
    Go back in time and you'll find out that even texts we use as originals, like the Septuagint and the Vulgata are also translations and reproductions.
    The Bible is a very good collection of individual books written in different time periods for different audiences, but nowadays it's stupid to try and pick up literal meanings from texts that have undergone so many different interpretations.

    Oh, and as to your initial question... Sorry, my man.
    The cake is a lie.
    There is no cake.
    icon_razz.gif
    j/k

    jinx_portal_the-cake-is-a-lie.jpg
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    Jan 11, 2009 5:59 PM GMT
    styrgan said

    Is it really necessary to have a lawsuit over this though?


    Yes, because mistranslated Bible verses like this are what continue to justify (at least in Christian minds) violence towards GLBT people.

    Like someone else said, it's comparable to how Southerners used the Bible to justify slavery. This time it's using the Bible to justify hate crimes.

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    Jan 11, 2009 6:00 PM GMT
    Hell the better question might be can Gays, G0ys, Bi's, Lesbians and Transgenders even really freaking live together anywhere? (or go anywhere together for that matter, afterlife or otherwise)
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    Jan 11, 2009 8:59 PM GMT
    My first boyfriend was a fundamentalist Christian who didn't want to be gay. I would argue with him about the bible and his fundamentalist beliefs (such as babies going to hell because they weren't baptized or didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour before they died). Whenever he couldn't argue with me, he'd just say, "That's the devil talking through you."
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    Jan 11, 2009 9:07 PM GMT
    Try reading the Koran, it's the same message only more blatant LOL!

    Thing is, none of us can really know who gets into heaven without getting on the big, red telephone to have a direct conversation with God. So far, no one's really been able to figure out how that's accomplished beyond closing your eyes in what's more or less a séance, which of course we all know to be bullshit unless it's wrapped in Jesus. Go figure.
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    Jan 11, 2009 9:11 PM GMT
    Golly, I thought Joel Olsteen, Creflo Dollar, and The Mormons, had a big red telephone to the big guy in the sky.

    s_red-telephone-box.jpg

    Actually, in all seriousness, this is the down side with false belief systems. Not just the belief in something without any basis, but, also the shame and guilt associated with the belief of a day.

    My take on this is that IF a deity exists (which I honestly don't - I think it's malarkey), IT does not require worship, IT is not punitive, and hateful, and IT does not care who I fuck, and IT sure as heck doesn't want me going around hating others, or myself, because of any of that doo doo.

    For me, it's a huge stretch to sign on to even a wee bit of these false belief systems (pick your flavor).

    Having grown up on a cattle ranch and in the heart of Nature, I know full well that homo, bi, and hetro sexuality are alive and well all over in Nature.

    I can't imagine that some Intelligent Design would have fucked up so badly.

    From where I've been, nothing could be more natural than variance.