In Cali: Domestic Partnerships = Gay Marriage?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 20, 2008 8:00 PM GMT
    I have been e-mailing a "troll" who joined a pro gay marriage group on facebook. He stated that gays already have equal rights since gays have the same rights as str8s when they enter domestic partnerships. He said gay couples in domestic partnerships have the same rights as str8 married couples.

    He wrote:

    "No, I'm for equal rights. I'm just sick of gays pointing the finger, saying that I hate them because my view of equality is different than theirs. They have equal rights, they're just trying to force us to accept their actions as "normal." I'm fine with their actions being seen as normal, I just don't feel like I have to bend backwards to accept their lifestyle.

    I found my information through research on the internet. I simply typed in California law and domestic partnerships and it brought me to that law in California.

    I went on those boards to both educate AND to troll. It just makes me sick seeing people get together to bash on religions because of what they believe in, and then at the same time call THEM bigots. When people like these guys get together, they just compound the hate and build on each others misconceptions and then belittle anyone who stands against them.

    A decade ago it was domestic partnerships. That isn't good enough now, so this year it's marriages. When will that not be good enough? At the rate we're going, we'll eventually have a genderless society. Yes, both sexes are equal in that we should all have equal rights and we should all have the same capabilities, but we are NOT equal. Men and women and naturally different. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just the way we're genetically programmed. I don't think it's a good thing to think that a man and a woman are "interchangeable." We're not, and that's the direction the gay movement is taking us. It's actually kind of scary.

    California Family Code § 297.5. Yes, getting into and out of domestic partnerships are different, but once in, they have the same rights. I guess it takes a bit more paperwork on both ends of domestic partnerships, but the fact remains that they give the same rights.

    297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,
    protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
    responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
    derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
    government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
    of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses."


    Back to me:
    I haven't researched it yet, but everything I know tells me that something is missing. I have been told domestic partnerships are not equal to marriage. Have i been fooled?
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    Dec 20, 2008 9:14 PM GMT
    Not all states have domestic partnerships, recognize domestic partnerships, nor do all countries have/recognize them. Within California, getting a domestic partnership does provide for some of rights, but none of the federal rights come with it. Federal taxes, though domestically partnered, are filed as unmarried/single. Immigration, nope. Not certain which other federal ones are out there that domestic partnerships don't cover.

    As for the idea of us being seen as equal and the difference between men and women, I'm a little puzzled about your comments. I like to think of the inherent individuality that is within each of us, and making notions up of how men are, what women are, how men act, how women are different than men, creates these "natural" differences. I don't see any person, regardless of gender, as "interchangeable" for each person brings something new and unique to your life.

    The issue of gay marriage brings this notion of coupling, that we can be with someone, a specific, unique, and wonderful someone, that makes us feel less alone in this world. It isn't that gender is interchangeable for allowing same sex marriage, but that in erasing the gendered language you have more freedom to find the right person that you want with you in your life. Gay marriage opens the meaning of marriage beyond what men and women should do with each other to our choice to find love, and risk our lives getting to open our heart to another.

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    Dec 20, 2008 9:34 PM GMT
    Brady527 said

    As for the idea of us being seen as equal and the difference between men and women, I'm a little puzzled about your comments.


    No no... those weren't my comments; those were the comments of the guy I was debating with lol maybe I should claify that
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 20, 2008 9:45 PM GMT
    Gotcha.

    HRC has tons of info about what rights are out there, what counties offer domestic partnership registry (which leaving those counties voids the partnership) and tons of other good stuff. Hope that helps.
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    Dec 20, 2008 10:02 PM GMT
    There are over 1,000 benefits derived from federal law that heterosexual married people are entitled to that CA's registered domestic partnership law does not cover. One of the biggest of these is Social Security survivor's benefits. For example, my parents have been married for 45 years. My mother has not worked outside the home since they married. Alone, she is not entitled to Social Security benefits because she did not pay into the system. If my dad dies before she does though, she'll receive survivor's benefits that are tied to his income and earnings. If this were a gay couple, the surviving domestic partner would not be entitled to any survivor's benefits.

    Another big one is that if I were to put my hypothetical registered domestic partner on to my health insurance at work, federal law requires that I be taxed on the value of that insurance. Straight married couples are not taxed on the value of insurance benefits for their spouse.

    There are some additional requirements under the CA domestic partnership law that heterosexual married people don't have to observe -- namely, that you have to be living together for a period of time prior to registering your domestic partnership. This doesn't sound like it's a big deal, but what if you wanted to "marry" someone who was about to be deployed in the military or was going to be separated from you geographically for education or work and you hadn't lived together yet? Imagine the Christian right if they were forced to live together before they could marry like registered domestic partnerships have to do.

    Bottom line -- it's not the same. In CA, it's close but it's not the same. Separate isn't and never has been equal.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 21, 2008 12:06 AM GMT
    Go to the source. Read the CA supreme court decision on gay marriage.

    http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/S147999.PDF

    This should be required reading for every gay man.

    I'll be harsh here: discussions that don't include this decision as background information are a waste of time.
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    Dec 21, 2008 5:40 AM GMT
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to Justice everywhere." MLK
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Dec 21, 2008 2:12 PM GMT
    cjcscuba1984 saidI have been e-mailing a "troll" who joined a pro gay marriage group on facebook. He stated that gays already have equal rights since gays have the same rights as str8s when they enter domestic partnerships. He said gay couples in domestic partnerships have the same rights as str8 married couples.

    He wrote:

    "No, I'm for equal rights. I'm just sick of gays pointing the finger, saying that I hate them because my view of equality is different than theirs. They have equal rights, they're just trying to force us to accept their actions as "normal." I'm fine with their actions being seen as normal, I just don't feel like I have to bend backwards to accept their lifestyle.

    I found my information through research on the internet. I simply typed in California law and domestic partnerships and it brought me to that law in California.

    I went on those boards to both educate AND to troll. It just makes me sick seeing people get together to bash on religions because of what they believe in, and then at the same time call THEM bigots. When people like these guys get together, they just compound the hate and build on each others misconceptions and then belittle anyone who stands against them.

    I don't think this guy you are emailing is gay, or very confused. Looks like someone who is disguising himself as gay, to argue about gay marriage.

    A decade ago it was domestic partnerships. That isn't good enough now, so this year it's marriages. When will that not be good enough? At the rate we're going, we'll eventually have a genderless society. Yes, both sexes are equal in that we should all have equal rights and we should all have the same capabilities, but we are NOT equal. Men and women and naturally different. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just the way we're genetically programmed. I don't think it's a good thing to think that a man and a woman are "interchangeable." We're not, and that's the direction the gay movement is taking us. It's actually kind of scary.

    California Family Code § 297.5. Yes, getting into and out of domestic partnerships are different, but once in, they have the same rights. I guess it takes a bit more paperwork on both ends of domestic partnerships, but the fact remains that they give the same rights.

    297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,
    protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
    responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
    derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
    government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
    of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses."


    Back to me:
    I haven't researched it yet, but everything I know tells me that something is missing. I have been told domestic partnerships are not equal to marriage. Have i been fooled?


    I don' think they guy you are emailing is gay, or very confused. Probably disguising himself as gay, to argue against gay marriage. I am in a CA domestic partnership. It is equal in rights as marriage in CA, but not in Federal Law.


  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Dec 21, 2008 2:17 PM GMT
    iguanaSF saidGo to the source. Read the CA supreme court decision on gay marriage.

    http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/S147999.PDF

    This should be required reading for every gay man.

    I'll be harsh here: discussions that don't include this decision as background information are a waste of time.


    Is there an abbreviated version somewhere, that us lay people can understand?
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    Dec 21, 2008 2:38 PM GMT
    Koaa2 said
    iguanaSF saidGo to the source. Read the CA supreme court decision on gay marriage.

    http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/S147999.PDF

    This should be required reading for every gay man.

    I'll be harsh here: discussions that don't include this decision as background information are a waste of time.


    Is there an abbreviated version somewhere, that us lay people can understand?


    HAHA that's what I was thinking. I don't havethe time to read a 172 page document JUST to prove a point to some guy who claims to be for gay rights yet has his own bias towards them. I need something clear and concise... dumbed-down if you will. Yet abbreviated version concern me because topics like that are very complicated and detailed. Dumbing down something complicated may leave out important details and may be influenced by the person who abbreates the document.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 21, 2008 3:18 PM GMT
    A domestic partnership does not have the same legal rights or social acceptance as marriage in CA. It offers piecemeal protections that often require extra legal fees to have them reinforced - hospital visitation rights, power of attorney (medical/financial), last will/estate, which still do not carry the same legal strength as marriage if challenged in court - by an out of state relative, e.g. A domestic partnership is a protected cohabitation, provided the partners maintain a common residence after meeting residence requirements. There are no abandonment protections - no legal obligation to support the partner if one walks away or to divide property fairly. A domestic partnership, whether for straights or gays, does not have to be recognized out-of-state. It lacks the dignity of equal status that married couples, and by extension families, enjoy because it is deliberately not marriage. How insulting is that to two people who perform the work of marriage but are denied it? Separate is not equal. Recently I asked my friends Stephanie & Maurice if they considered their DP to be the same as marriage. They laughed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 21, 2008 3:30 PM GMT
    Koaa2 said
    iguanaSF saidGo to the source. Read the CA supreme court decision on gay marriage.

    http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/S147999.PDF

    This should be required reading for every gay man.

    I'll be harsh here: discussions that don't include this decision as background information are a waste of time.


    Is there an abbreviated version somewhere, that us lay people can understand?


    The first ~ten pages provide a good overview. Look also at footnote 2 on page 2 and footnote 24 on pp. 42-44.

    Since civil unions/domestic partnerships aren't recognized at the federal level, I suspect that many federal rights, privileges and benefits would not apply. Civil marriage, on the other hand, is recognized at the federal level, and presumably would convey federal rights, privileges and benefits to same sex couples.
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    Dec 22, 2008 1:49 AM GMT
    Koaa2 saidIs there an abbreviated version somewhere, that us lay people can understand?


    The meat is 121 pages, and 1/4 of it is footnotes you can skip. You can also skip references to other cases you're not familiar with. They summarize most of the ones that really matter and tell you why. It really is readable and understandable in the main by your average person who can post on Realjock.com.

    This is the bible of the gay marriage issue. It has already, and will continue to be used as a reference in every court case on the topic. Not reading it, or at least attempting to tackle the first 10 pages, as ruck_us suggests, is like arguing about the bible without ever having read it. Interesting, but in the end, just so much cocktail chatter.

    It takes an hour. Give it a try!

    I'll give you some Cliff Notes: The key rationale involves a parallel to a 1948 decision that struck down the law prohibiting interracial marriage. Other keys: the equal protection clause of the California State Constitution, and a parallel to the "separate but equal" defense of segregation laws.

    The Supremes have really thought about this issue in all its facets logically and we should all stand on their tall shoulders in our arguments, and not wader around blind. Our case will be much stronger if we do.

    Schoolmarmishly,

    Ig