For Auto Unions in South, Is Chattanooga Waterloo?

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    Feb 20, 2014 10:04 PM GMT
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-19/for-auto-unions-in-south-is-chattanooga-waterloo-.html

    As many of you already know, this was a very interesting organizing drive, because the company was for it. Volkswagen AG wanted to set up a German-style works council, which apparently can’t be done under U.S. labor law unless there’s a union, lest it be deemed an illegal “company union.” So the UAW came in and Volkswagen politely declined to contest.

    The union lost anyway. There have been some fitful attempts to blame this on Republican legislators who launched a public-relations war against the union drive (a big union in the state would presumably divert some of those union dues to campaigning for Democrats). This is weak tea -- weaker even than complaints that companies “sabotage” union drives because they are allowed to argue to employees, within tight legal constraints, that the union might not be so great.

    If the UAW can’t win in the South when the company basically invites them in, then it can’t win in the South, where all the new auto plants are. Is the problem native anti-union sentiment among Southerners? Did the events of 2008 convince workers that a union would be nothing but trouble? This is a fascinating, and unresolvable, academic debate. It doesn’t change the outcome, which is that the UAW lost when it had things stacked in its favor.
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    Feb 20, 2014 10:59 PM GMT
    This is misleading. They didn't exactly lose a fair election. The workers were lied to by Tennessee legislators, claiming that VW had said they would not open a second plant (or add a second assembly line) for SUVs if the union was certified; in fact, VW not only said no such thing, but in fact the head of the German VW Workers' Council said yesterday that they may not locate a new plant anywhere in the US that is anti-union. So the Tennessee lawmaker/liars have most likely shot themselves in the foot. For a change.
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    Feb 20, 2014 11:58 PM GMT
    Sharkira saidThis is misleading. They didn't exactly lose a fair election. The workers were lied to by Tennessee legislators, claiming that VW had said they would not open a second plant (or add a second assembly line) for SUVs if the union was certified; in fact, VW not only said no such thing, but in fact the head of the German VW Workers' Council said yesterday that they may not locate a new plant anywhere in the US that is anti-union. So the Tennessee lawmaker/liars have most likely shot themselves in the foot. For a change.


    Oh how you're such a predictable unthinking shill. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Feb 21, 2014 12:01 AM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Sharkira saidThis is misleading. They didn't exactly lose a fair election. The workers were lied to by Tennessee legislators, claiming that VW had said they would not open a second plant (or add a second assembly line) for SUVs if the union was certified; in fact, VW not only said no such thing, but in fact the head of the German VW Workers' Council said yesterday that they may not locate a new plant anywhere in the US that is anti-union. So the Tennessee lawmaker/liars have most likely shot themselves in the foot. For a change.


    Oh how you're such a predictable unthinking shill. icon_rolleyes.gif

    You're not entitled to your own facts.
    Everything I wrote (and more) has been written about in the press. The lies have been documented and contradicted by the company itself. The remark from the head of the Workers' Council was publicized yesterday on actual (non-Fox) news sites.

    You're projecting because you're the shill. And you're dishonest. Notwithstanding your own cravenness, the facts are the facts.
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    Feb 21, 2014 1:24 AM GMT
    Sharkira said
    riddler78 said
    Sharkira saidThis is misleading. They didn't exactly lose a fair election. The workers were lied to by Tennessee legislators, claiming that VW had said they would not open a second plant (or add a second assembly line) for SUVs if the union was certified; in fact, VW not only said no such thing, but in fact the head of the German VW Workers' Council said yesterday that they may not locate a new plant anywhere in the US that is anti-union. So the Tennessee lawmaker/liars have most likely shot themselves in the foot. For a change.


    Oh how you're such a predictable unthinking shill. icon_rolleyes.gif

    You're not entitled to your own facts.
    Everything I wrote (and more) has been written about in the press. The lies have been documented and contradicted by the company itself. The remark from the head of the Workers' Council was publicized yesterday on actual (non-Fox) news sites.

    You're projecting because you're the shill. And you're dishonest. Notwithstanding your own cravenness, the facts are the facts.


    You're correct. You aren't entitled to your own facts. The facts are pretty simple here and have been fully documented - as your baldfaced lies.

    The facts *are* the facts.
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Feb 21, 2014 2:43 AM GMT
    Unions have a lot of power in Australia thanks to the Labor Party incumbency for six years. The whole party is almost exclusively run by unionists and it really shows.

    Anything that a union touches will be out of the country and sold to foreign ownership and jobs will go overseas. Of course, they whinge and complain about the government 'abandoning' workers because they refuse to bail them out like the Socialist Labor Party would.

    I don't know as much about American unions, but suffice it to say, that seeing for six years the entrenchment of union power from a corrupt government, I do not trust almost anything a union says. They are unconstructive, anti-production, parasitic and HIGHLY corrupt (at least here).

    Because I am unfamiliar with the story of the thread, I can't make any final judgements, but I would be willing to bet that the union cannot be trusted, especially when they start exclusively blaming either the employer or any conservative government. They love Leftist governments because, being the Socialists they are, they will just hand over the money.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14371

    Feb 21, 2014 2:50 AM GMT
    PolitiNerd saidUnions have a lot of power in Australia thanks to the Labor Party incumbency for six years. The whole party is almost exclusively run by unionists and it really shows.

    Anything that a union touches will be out of the country and sold to foreign ownership and jobs will go overseas. Of course, they whinge and complain about the government 'abandoning' workers because they refuse to bail them out like the Socialist Labor Party would.

    I don't know as much about American unions, but suffice it to say, that seeing for six years the entrenchment of union power from a corrupt government, I do not trust almost anything a union says. They are unconstructive, anti-production, parasitic and HIGHLY corrupt (at least here).

    Because I am unfamiliar with the story of the thread, I can't make any final judgements, but I would be willing to bet that the union cannot be trusted, especially when they start exclusively blaming either the employer or any conservative government. They love Leftist governments because, being the Socialists they are, they will just hand over the money.
    Many of the labor unions in the US have gotten to be the same way over the past several decades. Especially the public employee labor unions, they are a greedy, corrupt bunch that don't give a shit what the taxpayers can afford, they want their big annual raises no matter what the situation. That is why I am a big fan of Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder. He stood up to those corrupt public employee unions and forced them to do without their generous raises and he has forced numerous cities in Michigan to get their financial houses in order especially Detroit and Flint. Most of these unionized public employees feel that they are rightfully entitled to a big wage increase every year. I feel that they are not entitled, they should be forced to earn it.
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    Feb 21, 2014 3:03 AM GMT
    riddler78 saidThe facts *are* the facts.

    Mine have been documented in many places.
    Yours are weird fantasy derived from bizarro-world right-wing echo chambers. Nonetheless, it's quite easy to prove you wrong. The Google is all you need.
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    Feb 21, 2014 3:00 PM GMT
    YourName2000 said
    Sharkira said
    riddler78 saidThe facts *are* the facts.

    Mine have been documented in many places.
    Yours are weird fantasy derived from bizarro-world right-wing echo chambers. Nonetheless, it's quite easy to prove you wrong. The Google is all you need.

    Your facts are correct, Sharkie. This is everywhere. Once again, Riddler doesn't have a clue what he's talking about (or more accurately is just spinning more dumb lies).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/19/us-vw-usplant-idUSBREA1I0S820140219

    https://www.politicususa.com/2014/02/20/republican-vw-union-busting-victory-turns-major-defeat-gop.html

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2014/0219/Anti-union-vote-at-Tennessee-VW-plant-biggest-election-of-2014-or-duh-video

    I could go on and on and on, but really I don't know why anyone replied to this in the first place. Riddler's threads have gotten so bat-shit crazy they simply don't warrant any attention at all. At this point, you can pretty much guarantee that he's misrepresenting the truth. Had this simply been left to die on the vine, it would have been buried under a dozen more important (and more honestly presented) stories.

    Would you talk to a crazy person on the street, with a tinfoil hat, muttering that aliens took his dog? No? --then why are you trying to have a conversation with Clement?


    You're so easy to fisk that I have to wonder if you even bother thinking before writing your views. I clicked on the first link. Hmmmm... it just summarizes the labor chief's views. Where are the "facts"?

    You can choose not to reply - and you really don't need to but the only one who comes out as bat shit crazy are those like yourself and Aristoshark who have such a demonstrably flexible relationship with reality.

    Fact is, any vote that you don't agree with you think is "unfair". The unions lost a major battle in the south despite the fact the company had encouraged them in. You and Aristoshark find it so offensive that these workers voted not only for their own pocket books but the greater good to give the heave ho to the UAW speaks volumes as to what the both of you really believe when it comes to things like free speech, workers' rights and democracy.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 21, 2014 3:16 PM GMT
    Sorry, you're just an idiot. And one with no compunctions about lying, misrepresentation, and deceit. I have no further use for you. Your entire persona on here is a lie, as I discovered.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 21, 2014 3:19 PM GMT
    Sharkira saidSorry, you're just an idiot. And one with no compunctions about lying, misrepresentation, and deceit. I have no further use for you. Your entire persona on here is a lie, as I discovered.


    Thank you for proving my point. The irony is that even Sarah Palin has more substance than you'll ever have. I imagine that's what makes you so bitter and lonely - but at least you have your stupidity to give you solace sweetiepoo. icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 21, 2014 3:21 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Sharkira saidSorry, you're just an idiot. And one with no compunctions about lying, misrepresentation, and deceit. I have no further use for you. Your entire persona on here is a lie, as I discovered.


    Thank you for proving my point. The irony is that even Sarah Palin has more substance than you'll ever have. I imagine that's what makes you so bitter and lonely - but at least you have your stupidity to give you solace sweetiepoo. icon_wink.gif

    Very droll. Coming from the straight guy who comes here to troll gay men. Why don't you go bother some woman instead of displaying your foolishness here? Oh, right---because no one would have you, male or female.
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    Feb 21, 2014 3:24 PM GMT
    Sharkira said
    riddler78 said
    Sharkira saidSorry, you're just an idiot. And one with no compunctions about lying, misrepresentation, and deceit. I have no further use for you. Your entire persona on here is a lie, as I discovered.


    Thank you for proving my point. The irony is that even Sarah Palin has more substance than you'll ever have. I imagine that's what makes you so bitter and lonely - but at least you have your stupidity to give you solace sweetiepoo. icon_wink.gif

    Very droll. Coming from the straight guy who comes here to troll gay men. Why don't you go bother some woman instead of displaying your foolishness here? Oh, right---because no one would have you, male or female.


    Lol - um, well - sorry to give lie to your claim. There are probably 20+ RJ'ers in Toronto and elsewhere who I know in real life who know otherwise (even a couple I've dated). Then again, whatever fantasies keep you comfortable in your lonely sad existence honey. icon_wink.gif
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    Feb 21, 2014 5:17 PM GMT
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 21, 2014 7:54 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Sharkira said
    riddler78 said
    Sharkira saidSorry, you're just an idiot. And one with no compunctions about lying, misrepresentation, and deceit. I have no further use for you. Your entire persona on here is a lie, as I discovered.


    Thank you for proving my point. The irony is that even Sarah Palin has more substance than you'll ever have. I imagine that's what makes you so bitter and lonely - but at least you have your stupidity to give you solace sweetiepoo. icon_wink.gif

    Very droll. Coming from the straight guy who comes here to troll gay men. Why don't you go bother some woman instead of displaying your foolishness here? Oh, right---because no one would have you, male or female.


    Lol - um, well - sorry to give lie to your claim. There are probably 20+ RJ'ers in Toronto and elsewhere who I know in real life who know otherwise (even a couple I've dated). Then again, whatever fantasies keep you comfortable in your lonely sad existence honey. icon_wink.gif


    "even a couple I've dated"

    Does that make it a 3-way?
    icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 25, 2014 3:34 AM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    riddler78 said
    Sharkira said
    riddler78 said
    Sharkira saidSorry, you're just an idiot. And one with no compunctions about lying, misrepresentation, and deceit. I have no further use for you. Your entire persona on here is a lie, as I discovered.


    Thank you for proving my point. The irony is that even Sarah Palin has more substance than you'll ever have. I imagine that's what makes you so bitter and lonely - but at least you have your stupidity to give you solace sweetiepoo. icon_wink.gif

    Very droll. Coming from the straight guy who comes here to troll gay men. Why don't you go bother some woman instead of displaying your foolishness here? Oh, right---because no one would have you, male or female.


    Lol - um, well - sorry to give lie to your claim. There are probably 20+ RJ'ers in Toronto and elsewhere who I know in real life who know otherwise (even a couple I've dated). Then again, whatever fantasies keep you comfortable in your lonely sad existence honey. icon_wink.gif


    "even a couple I've dated"

    Does that make it a 3-way?
    icon_wink.gif


    Haha, nope. Not that I have a problem with that... I've learned it's not quite for me icon_smile.gif.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 25, 2014 3:42 AM GMT
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/22/us-autos-uaw-election-analysis-idUSBREA1L13220140222

    Norquist said the strategy of the Center for Worker Freedom, an affiliate of his Washington group, was to focus on the community and not just the workers at the plant. Volkswagen had barred anti-union groups from campaigning on company premises.

    The Center for Worker Freedom bought up every available billboard it could find in town - 13 in all, he said.

    "The various billboards weren't just to make sure that everyone driving to the plant would see them but also so that everybody in town would see them," said Norquist.

    One billboard linked the UAW to Democratic President Barack Obama, whose national approval ratings are dismally low, and another to the demise of auto hub Detroit, which filed the biggest municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history last July.

    While the UAW has focused much of its post-election ire on Corker, anti-union activists say a key player in their effort in Chattanooga was Patterson, a little-known Norquist lieutenant who heads the Center for Worker Freedom.

    Patterson began laying the anti-union groundwork in Chattanooga last spring, while still working for the Competitive Enterprise Institute. He began writing a series of opinion pieces for newspapers and helped organize local events.

    "I thought if the UAW was going to have a victory in the South, then this was going to be the place where they had the best chance," Patterson said in an interview.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 25, 2014 10:30 PM GMT
    http://ideas.time.com/2014/02/25/uaw/#ixzz2uLqA7BcM

    The post-bankruptcy restructuring of the Big Three slashed UAW wages to levels comparable to those at foreign transplants. And the union can no longer insist on lavish health care benefits without signing the death warrant of auto companies given Obamacare’s 40 percent excise tax on gold-plated health care plans. Moreover, transplant workers are rarely ever laid off, so union membership does not buy any more job security.

    What’s more, Southern states have actively marketed themselves as union-free zones. This strategy has made Tennessee the South’s auto hub with three foreign automakers located there. By contrast, Michigan has attracted not one, despite its highly trained workforce.

    All of this is not lost on Southern workers who are strongly protective of their anti-union heritage. The UAW has tried various degrees of organizing drives at Nissan, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota and Mercedes-Benz without success. Indeed, at a Nissan plant in Canton, Mississippi, which might be the UAW’s next target, anti-union workers have taken to wearing T-shirts saying, “If you want a union, move to Detroit.”

    General Motors and Chrysler’s bankruptcy has forced even Northern states to shed their union shackles. Indiana, and even more remarkably Michigan, are now right-to-work states, something scarcely imaginable five years ago. It is hardly likely that Southern workers will embrace unionization just when Northern states are de-unionizing, especially given the new competitive pressures emerging from low-wage Mexico and China.

    Given all this, Republicans needn’t panic as the UAW puts its unionization drive in the south into high gear. Southern workers are not knaves and fools. They are perfectly capable of watching out for their own interests — and, regardless of what happens in Chattanooga, it doesn’t lie with the unions.
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    Mar 04, 2014 9:38 PM GMT
    VW Boss–Unionize or Else!
    http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/01/vw-boss-unionize-or-else/
    The United Auto Workers, having lost their big vote at VW’s Chattanooga factory, have filed an “unfair labor practice” complaint with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB). It’s not a high-percentage shot–the UAW’s main complaint is that Republican Tennessee politicians (including Sen. Corker) threatened loss of tax breaks, and said that VW would bring more work to the plant if the union was rejected. But Corker and the other politicians aren’t VW officials or employees–the parties the NLRB traditionally regulates.

    Bernd Osterloh, on the other hand, is a VW official. He’s a labor leader who sits on the supervisory board that approves new investments by the company. And after the vote, he quite forcefully declared that Chattanooga might lose out on future investments because it rejected the UAW.

    If management made that kind of threat to keep out a union, there’d be trouble with the feds. Can it be an “unfair labor practice” for management to threaten retaliation if its workers don’t unionize?**
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    Mar 05, 2014 1:52 AM GMT
    How amusing. When I told you that about Osterloh some weeks ago you implied that I was making it up.

    You're really something. icon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif
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    Mar 05, 2014 11:04 AM GMT
    Shark_cuterie saidHow amusing. When I told you that about Osterloh some weeks ago you implied that I was making it up.

    You're really something. icon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif


    Yes - I rejected your premise that it was an unfair vote - and second, the labor leader is in fact part of VW and is able to block new plants. I'm sorry that you have such a problem with literacy, but please don't blame it on me.
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    Mar 05, 2014 1:02 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Shark_cuterie saidHow amusing. When I told you that about Osterloh some weeks ago you implied that I was making it up.

    You're really something. icon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif


    Yes - I rejected your premise that it was an unfair vote - and second, the labor leader is in fact part of VW and is able to block new plants. I'm sorry that you have such a problem with literacy, but please don't blame it on me.

    Lying and spinning again. Well, I guess we all need hobbies. And what with email, stamp collecting isn't very fulfilling nowadays.
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    Mar 05, 2014 1:04 PM GMT
    Shark_cuterie said
    riddler78 said
    Shark_cuterie saidHow amusing. When I told you that about Osterloh some weeks ago you implied that I was making it up.

    You're really something. icon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif


    Yes - I rejected your premise that it was an unfair vote - and second, the labor leader is in fact part of VW and is able to block new plants. I'm sorry that you have such a problem with literacy, but please don't blame it on me.

    Lying and spinning again. Well, I guess we all need hobbies. And what with email, stamp collecting isn't very fulfilling nowadays.


    Except anyone who can actually read, can see the lying and spinning isn't being done by me. But thank you again for demonstrating what an illiterate fool you are sweetie icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 05, 2014 1:25 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Except anyone who can actually read, can see the lying and spinning isn't being done by me. But thank you again for demonstrating what an illiterate fool you are sweetie icon_wink.gif

    Even your retorts are lame, straight boy.
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    Mar 05, 2014 1:45 PM GMT
    Shark_cuterie said
    riddler78 said
    Except anyone who can actually read, can see the lying and spinning isn't being done by me. But thank you again for demonstrating what an illiterate fool you are sweetie icon_wink.gif

    Even your retorts are lame, straight boy.


    If you say so sweetie icon_wink.gif