Germany's second-largest city, Hamburg Sets Out to Become a Car-Free City in 20 Years

  • metta

    Posts: 39089

    Feb 22, 2014 7:01 AM GMT
    Hamburg Sets Out to Become a Car-Free City in 20 Years

    http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2014/02/hamburg-sets-out-to-become-a-carfree-city-in-20-years.html?m=1
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Feb 22, 2014 11:54 AM GMT
    One word:

    FANTASY
  • frogman89

    Posts: 418

    Feb 22, 2014 12:12 PM GMT
    PolitiNerd saidOne word:

    FANTASY

    Why? You don't need cars in big cities. Public transport is easily accessible and get you everywhere.
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Feb 22, 2014 12:21 PM GMT
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd saidOne word:

    FANTASY

    Why? You don't need cars in big cities. Public transport is easily accessible and get you everywhere.


    People want to get where they want on their own time. Public transport is handy, but on an all-the-time basis? I don't have my license, so I rely on public transport. When you have things like waiting times, track work, coordination of getting things done, predetermined dates, changes to the public transport, things ate almost impossible to do well.

    That's why people have personal transportation. To go where they Wang when they want. Circumstances allowing, of course.

    So, again; everyone in Hamburg without a car in 20 years?

    FANTASY

    EDIT: Also, public transport doesn't get you everywhere. Even in a city like Sydney, you can be getting trains and buses and still be kilometers away from where you actually need to be.
  • frogman89

    Posts: 418

    Feb 22, 2014 12:27 PM GMT
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd saidOne word:

    FANTASY

    Why? You don't need cars in big cities. Public transport is easily accessible and get you everywhere.


    People want to get where they want on their own time. Public transport is handy, but on an all-the-time basis? I don't have my license, so I rely on public transport. When you have things like waiting times, track work, coordination of getting things done, predetermined dates, changes to the public transport, things ate almost impossible to do well.

    That's why people have personal transportation. To go where they Wang when they want. Circumstances allowing, of course.

    So, again; everyone in Hamburg without a car in 20 years?

    FANTASY

    EDIT: Also, public transport doesn't get you everywhere. Even in a city like Sydney, you can be getting trains and buses and still be kilometers away from where you actually need to be.
    And you can't go where you want when you want with a metro that drives every 5 mins? Hm, I get your point icon_rolleyes.gif
    EDIT: Every metro station is 10 min away from wherever you are MAX!
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Feb 22, 2014 12:33 PM GMT
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd saidOne word:

    FANTASY

    Why? You don't need cars in big cities. Public transport is easily accessible and get you everywhere.


    People want to get where they want on their own time. Public transport is handy, but on an all-the-time basis? I don't have my license, so I rely on public transport. When you have things like waiting times, track work, coordination of getting things done, predetermined dates, changes to the public transport, things ate almost impossible to do well.

    That's why people have personal transportation. To go where they Wang when they want. Circumstances allowing, of course.

    So, again; everyone in Hamburg without a car in 20 years?

    FANTASY

    EDIT: Also, public transport doesn't get you everywhere. Even in a city like Sydney, you can be getting trains and buses and still be kilometers away from where you actually need to be.
    And you can't go where you want when you want with a metro that drives every 5 mins? Hm, I get your point icon_rolleyes.gif
    EDIT: Every metro station is 10 min away from wherever you are MAX!


    Well, no you can't. Not anywhere. Sure, metro systems like England's sounds great. But there are still cars everywhere. You can't get a parking spot in your building if you catch a train.

    Also, there is a culture of owning cars anyway. Small an influence though it may be, it's still there. To get over the milestone of people accepting that you don't have a car and never will, is going to take longer than 20 years.

    And you can roll your eyes if you want, because you're so right and I'm so wrong, but you could also engage with me without being up yourself about it icon_cool.gif
  • frogman89

    Posts: 418

    Feb 22, 2014 12:40 PM GMT
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd saidOne word:

    FANTASY

    Why? You don't need cars in big cities. Public transport is easily accessible and get you everywhere.


    People want to get where they want on their own time. Public transport is handy, but on an all-the-time basis? I don't have my license, so I rely on public transport. When you have things like waiting times, track work, coordination of getting things done, predetermined dates, changes to the public transport, things ate almost impossible to do well.

    That's why people have personal transportation. To go where they Wang when they want. Circumstances allowing, of course.

    So, again; everyone in Hamburg without a car in 20 years?

    FANTASY

    EDIT: Also, public transport doesn't get you everywhere. Even in a city like Sydney, you can be getting trains and buses and still be kilometers away from where you actually need to be.
    And you can't go where you want when you want with a metro that drives every 5 mins? Hm, I get your point icon_rolleyes.gif
    EDIT: Every metro station is 10 min away from wherever you are MAX!


    Well, no you can't. Not anywhere. Sure, metro systems like England's sounds great. But there are still cars everywhere. You can't get a parking spot in your building if you catch a train.

    Also, there is a culture of owning cars anyway. Small an influence though it may be, it's still there. To get over the milestone of people accepting that you don't have a car and never will, is going to take longer than 20 years.

    And you can roll your eyes if you want, because you're so right and I'm so wrong, but you could also engage with me without being up yourself about it icon_cool.gif

    Well, you judge it as if you knew it. But you don't. Hamburg is not America. You obviously don't know anything about its infrastructure. Public transport gets you anywhere. Big companies have their own stations and give their employers free rides.

    And cars are not as prestigeous here as they are in America. Especially not for the younger generation. Nobody gives a fuck if you own a car or not. Because you don't need one and it's a waste of money anyway.
    Here it only makes sense to own a car if you've got children because it's uncomplicated. Other than that, who cares.
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Feb 22, 2014 12:57 PM GMT
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd saidOne word:

    FANTASY

    Why? You don't need cars in big cities. Public transport is easily accessible and get you everywhere.


    People want to get where they want on their own time. Public transport is handy, but on an all-the-time basis? I don't have my license, so I rely on public transport. When you have things like waiting times, track work, coordination of getting things done, predetermined dates, changes to the public transport, things ate almost impossible to do well.

    That's why people have personal transportation. To go where they Wang when they want. Circumstances allowing, of course.

    So, again; everyone in Hamburg without a car in 20 years?

    FANTASY

    EDIT: Also, public transport doesn't get you everywhere. Even in a city like Sydney, you can be getting trains and buses and still be kilometers away from where you actually need to be.
    And you can't go where you want when you want with a metro that drives every 5 mins? Hm, I get your point icon_rolleyes.gif
    EDIT: Every metro station is 10 min away from wherever you are MAX!


    Well, no you can't. Not anywhere. Sure, metro systems like England's sounds great. But there are still cars everywhere. You can't get a parking spot in your building if you catch a train.

    Also, there is a culture of owning cars anyway. Small an influence though it may be, it's still there. To get over the milestone of people accepting that you don't have a car and never will, is going to take longer than 20 years.

    And you can roll your eyes if you want, because you're so right and I'm so wrong, but you could also engage with me without being up yourself about it icon_cool.gif

    Well, you judge it as if you knew it. But you don't. Hamburg is not America. You obviously don't know anything about its infrastructure. Public transport gets you anywhere. Big companies have their own stations and give their employers free rides.

    And cars are not as prestigeous here as they are in America. Especially not for the younger generation. Nobody gives a fuck if you own a car or not. Because you don't need one and it's a waste of money anyway.
    Here it only makes sense to own a car if you've got children because it's uncomplicated. Other than that, who cares.


    I'm not talking about America. I haven't even mentioned it. I know of the metro system Europe has. Not extensively, but I get it. Maybe you shouldn't jump to the conclusion I'm an idiot who is ill informed.

    My point still stands that you need a car to get you to particular places when you need to. Are you gonna shop and take all of your stuff on a train or taxi all day everyday? And what about going intercity or within the country? Sure there are trains and other things around the German cities, but is the metro system gonna stop by at EVERY train station there is? Some places are going to require driving. Trucks are going to be necessary for transportation of goods across the country, especially remote areas.

    Public transport is great, but it will never simple take over from personal transport.

    Plus, employers giving their employees free rides won't be sustainable forever. It's an expense, and when the company goes into trouble, it will be in the firing line. Suffice to say that it won't last forever with that cosy arrangement.
  • frogman89

    Posts: 418

    Feb 22, 2014 1:06 PM GMT
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 saidWell, you judge it as if you knew it. But you don't. Hamburg is not America. You obviously don't know anything about its infrastructure. Public transport gets you anywhere. Big companies have their own stations and give their employers free rides.

    And cars are not as prestigeous here as they are in America. Especially not for the younger generation. Nobody gives a fuck if you own a car or not. Because you don't need one and it's a waste of money anyway.
    Here it only makes sense to own a car if you've got children because it's uncomplicated. Other than that, who cares.


    I'm not talking about America. I haven't even mentioned it. I know of the metro system Europe has. Not extensively, but I get it. Maybe you shouldn't jump to the conclusion I'm an idiot who is ill informed.

    My point still stands that you need a car to get you to particular places when you need to. Are you gonna shop and take all of your stuff on a train or taxi all day everyday? And what about going intercity or within the country? Sure there are trains and other things around the German cities, but is the metro system gonna stop by at EVERY train station there is? Some places are going to require driving. Trucks are going to be necessary for transportation of goods across the country, especially remote areas.

    Public transport is great, but it will never simple take over from personal transport.

    Plus, employers giving their employees free rides won't be sustainable forever. It's an expense, and when the company goes into trouble, it will be in the firing line. Suffice to say that it won't last forever with that cosy arrangement.

    The article didn't say "Germany", but "Hamburg". And Hamburg is not a remote place. We are talking about a big city with a very dense metro system. It is definitely possible there. And yes, I'm going to shop and take all my stuff on a train or taxi every day. That's how we do it anyway. And if we make large investments, we will have them delivered (yes, by a car, but one that I'm not driving myself as a private person, but someone from a company who delivers to multiple customers).

    The intercity train system is just as dense. Every city with a population over 10 000 has a train station. And the rest can be reached by bus.

    The companies have been doing so (giving the free rides) for decades by now. In booms and recessions.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2014 1:10 PM GMT
    Can I retire there?
    Spread-out Plano-McKinney-Dallas-Irving is kicking my butt. And I drive of Prius.
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Feb 22, 2014 1:13 PM GMT
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 saidWell, you judge it as if you knew it. But you don't. Hamburg is not America. You obviously don't know anything about its infrastructure. Public transport gets you anywhere. Big companies have their own stations and give their employers free rides.

    And cars are not as prestigeous here as they are in America. Especially not for the younger generation. Nobody gives a fuck if you own a car or not. Because you don't need one and it's a waste of money anyway.
    Here it only makes sense to own a car if you've got children because it's uncomplicated. Other than that, who cares.


    I'm not talking about America. I haven't even mentioned it. I know of the metro system Europe has. Not extensively, but I get it. Maybe you shouldn't jump to the conclusion I'm an idiot who is ill informed.

    My point still stands that you need a car to get you to particular places when you need to. Are you gonna shop and take all of your stuff on a train or taxi all day everyday? And what about going intercity or within the country? Sure there are trains and other things around the German cities, but is the metro system gonna stop by at EVERY train station there is? Some places are going to require driving. Trucks are going to be necessary for transportation of goods across the country, especially remote areas.

    Public transport is great, but it will never simple take over from personal transport.

    Plus, employers giving their employees free rides won't be sustainable forever. It's an expense, and when the company goes into trouble, it will be in the firing line. Suffice to say that it won't last forever with that cosy arrangement.

    The article didn't say "Germany", but "Hamburg". And Hamburg is not a remote place. We are talking about a big city with a very dense metro system. It is definitely possible there. And yes, I'm going to shop and take all my stuff on a train or taxi every day. That's how we do it anyway. And if we make large investments, we will have them delivered (yes, by a car, but one that I'm not driving myself as a private person, but someone from a company who delivers to multiple customers).

    The intercity train system is just as dense. Every city with a population over 10 000 has a train station. And the rest can be reached by bus.

    The companies have been doing so (giving the free rides) for decades by now. In booms and recessions.


    Well, I have gone through all that I know, and you know, maybe I'm wrong. I don't much about Germany. I do know that Hamburg is a big city icon_razz.gif

    I will say that I will believe it when I see it, but at this present time, I can't see public transport being able to suit everyone's needs, even in 20 years.

    As I said though, I might be wrong.

    Thanks for the further enlightening of a bit about how Germany works icon_smile.gif I shall reserve my assertion until I hear from all sides further.
  • frogman89

    Posts: 418

    Feb 22, 2014 1:20 PM GMT
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 said
    PolitiNerd said
    frogman89 saidWell, you judge it as if you knew it. But you don't. Hamburg is not America. You obviously don't know anything about its infrastructure. Public transport gets you anywhere. Big companies have their own stations and give their employers free rides.

    And cars are not as prestigeous here as they are in America. Especially not for the younger generation. Nobody gives a fuck if you own a car or not. Because you don't need one and it's a waste of money anyway.
    Here it only makes sense to own a car if you've got children because it's uncomplicated. Other than that, who cares.


    I'm not talking about America. I haven't even mentioned it. I know of the metro system Europe has. Not extensively, but I get it. Maybe you shouldn't jump to the conclusion I'm an idiot who is ill informed.

    My point still stands that you need a car to get you to particular places when you need to. Are you gonna shop and take all of your stuff on a train or taxi all day everyday? And what about going intercity or within the country? Sure there are trains and other things around the German cities, but is the metro system gonna stop by at EVERY train station there is? Some places are going to require driving. Trucks are going to be necessary for transportation of goods across the country, especially remote areas.

    Public transport is great, but it will never simple take over from personal transport.

    Plus, employers giving their employees free rides won't be sustainable forever. It's an expense, and when the company goes into trouble, it will be in the firing line. Suffice to say that it won't last forever with that cosy arrangement.

    The article didn't say "Germany", but "Hamburg". And Hamburg is not a remote place. We are talking about a big city with a very dense metro system. It is definitely possible there. And yes, I'm going to shop and take all my stuff on a train or taxi every day. That's how we do it anyway. And if we make large investments, we will have them delivered (yes, by a car, but one that I'm not driving myself as a private person, but someone from a company who delivers to multiple customers).

    The intercity train system is just as dense. Every city with a population over 10 000 has a train station. And the rest can be reached by bus.

    The companies have been doing so (giving the free rides) for decades by now. In booms and recessions.


    Well, I have gone through all that I know, and you know, maybe I'm wrong. I don't much about Germany. I do know that Hamburg is a big city icon_razz.gif

    I will say that I will believe it when I see it, but at this present time, I can't see public transport being able to suit everyone's needs, even in 20 years.

    As I said though, I might be wrong.

    Thanks for the further enlightening of a bit about how Germany works icon_smile.gif I shall reserve my assertion until I hear from all sides further.

    It is still an eager plan, and honestly I also think it's going to take longer than 20 years. However, I believe it's not the people's minds that aren't ready for it, but the lack of money and the lobby (the car industry) who will try to prevent it.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14303

    Feb 22, 2014 3:42 PM GMT
    Hamburg, Germany is a very big city which means that not every city resident wants to be restricted to public transportation. It sounds like an excellent idea but I doubt that it is going to be successful. If anything it could encourage many Hamburg city residents to abandon the central city and move into the suburban periphery which would be counterproductive. You have to be careful when forming new transportation policies like this proposal. As for both the US and Australia ever getting an idea like this one, FORGET ABOUT IT. It is never going to happen because both Americans and Australians are too wedded to their beloved cars unfortunately.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2014 4:08 PM GMT
    I think it's difficult for anyone in the US or Australia to really assess this. We live in countries with few "walkable" cities (New York, San Francisco, Boston, Chicago....that's about it) and there is scarcely any way for us to imagine how we'd cope without cars, although I know lots of people in New York (mostly older people) who never even learned to drive. But the US and Australia are also vast open spaces between our towns and cities. Europe is much more dense in population and the transit systems there have evolved into something much more comprehensive than we can imagine here. I used to tour Europe with my singing group every year and I've been to many cities over and over (including Hamburg and other German cities) and I can see it being feasible there, eventually. Unfortunately, I don't think it would ever work here on any sort of scale.
  • frogman89

    Posts: 418

    Feb 22, 2014 4:20 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidHamburg, Germany is a very big city which means that not every city resident wants to be restricted to public transportation. It sounds like an excellent idea but I doubt that it is going to be successful. If anything it could encourage many Hamburg city residents to abandon the central city and move into the suburban periphery which would be counterproductive. You have to be careful when forming new transportation policies like this proposal. As for both the US and Australia ever getting an idea like this one, FORGET ABOUT IT. It is never going to happen because both Americans and Australians are too wedded to their beloved cars unfortunately.

    That wouldn't be bad actually. The central city is overcrowded and the periphery is less dense. It could bring a new balance to the city.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2014 4:20 PM GMT
    Sure wouldn't work here in Columbus and not much better in LA, but LA has improved a bunch over the last ten years or so. And no way could I do my job if this is all we had. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't further develop that option though.

    Edit after seeing the above post:

    We need more CBD urban density here and we're getting it, and we're doing much to make downtown as walkable as possible. In that regard, we're seeing huge improvement here. But as far as connecting the 'burbs with the city via mass transit ... next to nothing
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2014 6:06 PM GMT
    Sharkira saidI think it's difficult for anyone in the US or Australia to really assess this. We live in countries with few "walkable" cities (New York, San Francisco, Boston, Chicago....that's about it) and there is scarcely any way for us to imagine how we'd cope without cars, although I know lots of people in New York (mostly older people) who never even learned to drive. But the US and Australia are also vast open spaces between our towns and cities. Europe is much more dense in population and the transit systems there have evolved into something much more comprehensive than we can imagine here. I used to tour Europe with my singing group every year and I've been to many cities over and over (including Hamburg and other German cities) and I can see it being feasible there, eventually. Unfortunately, I don't think it would ever work here on any sort of scale.


    I don't think the only issue is the inter-municipal distance but rather the distances within your own city limits and poor urban zoning. Americans find it normal to live in large residential zones that are miles from any service -- those bedroom communities you call "suburbs".

    Here in Brazil, the very lack of planned residential zones created a situation in which even the worst neighborhood has a mini-market where locals can buy their groceries. Most middle class neighborhoods will have their own gas stations, restaurants, barber shops, mini-markets and the ubiquitous bakeries. Cars are so expensive in Brazil and public transportation so unreliable that people just can't have a life if their essential needs can't be met on foot.
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    Feb 22, 2014 6:10 PM GMT
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14303

    Feb 22, 2014 6:14 PM GMT
    frogman89 said
    roadbikeRob saidHamburg, Germany is a very big city which means that not every city resident wants to be restricted to public transportation. It sounds like an excellent idea but I doubt that it is going to be successful. If anything it could encourage many Hamburg city residents to abandon the central city and move into the suburban periphery which would be counterproductive. You have to be careful when forming new transportation policies like this proposal. As for both the US and Australia ever getting an idea like this one, FORGET ABOUT IT. It is never going to happen because both Americans and Australians are too wedded to their beloved cars unfortunately.

    That wouldn't be bad actually. The central city is overcrowded and the periphery is less dense. It could bring a new balance to the city.
    It could also mean the departure of prosperous citizens out of the city leaving behind the immigrants and the poor just like it did in American cities during the 50s, 60s, and 70s. You do not want Hamburg to eventually end up like Baltimore, Buffalo, and Detroit that is for sure.
  • Import

    Posts: 7190

    Feb 22, 2014 6:19 PM GMT
    I would never give up my car for public trans.
    I just hate sitting on a fucking train cart with the public.... being sneezed on and or coughed on.
    People begging for money. Crazies preaching gospel... people that smell, ratchett motherfuckers yapping on their phone..things like that don't make it worth it to me. Also, you're subject to their scheduling of trains and services. You lack freedom.

    I love the freedom a car provides. Come and go anywhere as u please. Listen to any music u want. as loud or not loud as u want. Eat if u want. talk on the phone, have the temperature inside ur car anyway u want. Heat blasting, AC blasting (with the windown down of course)smoking a cigarette. I mean whats not to love? could never do the public trans gig.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2014 6:42 PM GMT
    Admittedly I didn't read every reply to this topic.

    That said I'd like to say:

    1. Everything in moderation (American cities love affair with cars is excess)
    2. There was a time before cars
    3. Is ease of access that great when we're all obese?
    Imagine how much better we'd be if we all had to walk some 30 minutes each day. How much more of our environments would we understand?
    How many more people would we meet or be acquaintances with?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2014 6:56 PM GMT
    the city of Denver is aggressively building out a public lite rail system. The trains run reliable every 15 minutes.

    Time to move back into the city. I own several properties next to rail stations and they are appreciating faster than average. Denver property tax is bargain compared to my suburban digs. Utilities and services are well priced too.



    still see cars in NYC but the reality is there is no affordable parking for them.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14303

    Feb 22, 2014 7:06 PM GMT
    Import saidI would never give up my car for public trans.
    I just hate sitting on a fucking train cart with the public.... being sneezed on and or coughed on.
    People begging for money. Crazies preaching gospel... people that smell, ratchett motherfuckers yapping on their phone..things like that don't make it worth it to me. Also, you're subject to their scheduling of trains and services. You lack freedom.

    I love the freedom a car provides. Come and go anywhere as u please. Listen to any music u want. as loud or not loud as u want. Eat if u want. talk on the phone, have the temperature inside ur car anyway u want. Heat blasting, AC blasting (with the windown down of course)smoking a cigarette. I mean whats not to love? could never do the public trans gig.

    Do you like the endless major expenses a car provides as wellicon_question.gif As for listening to music as loud as you want in your car, wrong answer. Several cities and suburbs have cracked down hard on loud car stereos. Therefore, you do not have any legitimate right blasting your car stereo as loud as you want to the detriment of the neighboring community. The whole world doesn't either need or want to listen to your music blasting out of your car. Whats there not to love about owning and driving a car, Insurance, fuel, and costly repairs. The freedom might be awesome but there are no other advantages to car ownership. I will gladly put up with the inconvenience of erratic public transit schedules over car ownership because it is cheaper, easier, and most important SAFER.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2014 7:15 PM GMT
    Here is a short documentary on a city in the Netherlands that outlawed cars in its central city. My favorite comment was from one of the residents:
    Some Dutch guy
    "Everyone said, "It's impossible. It can't work. Shopkeepers said we'll leave the city immediately--everyone must park in front of our door, otherwise we'll lose all our business. And then wonder of wonders...the world didn't collapse. Shops didn't leave the city."


    That was in 1977.

    I don't think you can watch this video and argue that removing cars from an inner city ruined the quality of life.

    Groningen: The World's Cycling City from Streetfilms on Vimeo.



    And no, I'm not a militant cyclist who opposes cars. I love them. I own two and drive 25 miles to work each day (except in the summer when I take the train in and bike home once a week). But, I live in a walkable community and if I could work closer to home, I would.
  • Import

    Posts: 7190

    Feb 23, 2014 4:29 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    Import saidI would never give up my car for public trans.
    I just hate sitting on a fucking train cart with the public.... being sneezed on and or coughed on.
    People begging for money. Crazies preaching gospel... people that smell, ratchett motherfuckers yapping on their phone..things like that don't make it worth it to me. Also, you're subject to their scheduling of trains and services. You lack freedom.

    I love the freedom a car provides. Come and go anywhere as u please. Listen to any music u want. as loud or not loud as u want. Eat if u want. talk on the phone, have the temperature inside ur car anyway u want. Heat blasting, AC blasting (with the windown down of course)smoking a cigarette. I mean whats not to love? could never do the public trans gig.

    Do you like the endless major expenses a car provides as wellicon_question.gif As for listening to music as loud as you want in your car, wrong answer. Several cities and suburbs have cracked down hard on loud car stereos. Therefore, you do not have any legitimate right blasting your car stereo as loud as you want to the detriment of the neighboring community. The whole world doesn't either need or want to listen to your music blasting out of your car. Whats there not to love about owning and driving a car, Insurance, fuel, and costly repairs. The freedom might be awesome but there are no other advantages to car ownership. I will gladly put up with the inconvenience of erratic public transit schedules over car ownership because it is cheaper, easier, and most important SAFER.


    I dont mind the expenses a car provides. I mean I have a job and I can pay for it, so not a big deal for me.

    several cities and suburbs are cracking down on loud music? lol who cares, doesn't affect me. I listen to my music as loud as I want all day everyday. never even heard of that. You're trying so hard to paint having a car in a bad light. Nice try lol.

    U prob dont have a car, so u dont get it.
    whatevs.

    have fun being coughed on and begged at for money on public trans. Enjoy that.