Can a Teacher Shoot a Student in Idaho?

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    Mar 01, 2014 5:47 PM GMT
    From a NYT op-ed: TO the chief counsel of the Idaho State Legislature:

    In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days, I have a matter of practical concern that I hope you can help with: When may I shoot a student?

    I am a biology professor, not a lawyer, and I had never considered bringing a gun to work until now. But since many of my students are likely to be armed, I thought it would be a good idea to even the playing field.

    I have had encounters with disgruntled students over the years, some of whom seemed quite upset, but I always assumed that when they reached into their backpacks they were going for a pencil. Since I carry a pen to lecture, I did not feel outgunned; and because there are no working sharpeners in the lecture hall, the most they could get off is a single point. But now that we’ll all be packing heat, I would like legal instruction in the rules of classroom engagement.

    How do you feel about Idaho allowing all students to bring guns onto campus?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/when-may-i-shoot-a-student.html?src=me&ref=general
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    Mar 01, 2014 7:14 PM GMT
    woodsmen saidFrom a NYT op-ed: TO the chief counsel of the Idaho State Legislature:

    In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days, I have a matter of practical concern that I hope you can help with: When may I shoot a student?

    I am a biology professor, not a lawyer, and I had never considered bringing a gun to work until now. But since many of my students are likely to be armed, I thought it would be a good idea to even the playing field.

    I have had encounters with disgruntled students over the years, some of whom seemed quite upset, but I always assumed that when they reached into their backpacks they were going for a pencil. Since I carry a pen to lecture, I did not feel outgunned; and because there are no working sharpeners in the lecture hall, the most they could get off is a single point. But now that we’ll all be packing heat, I would like legal instruction in the rules of classroom engagement.

    How do you feel about Idaho allowing all students to bring guns onto campus?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/when-may-i-shoot-a-student.html?src=me&ref=general


    Meh. A number of states (including Colorado) allow concealed permit holders to carry on campus. Blood hasn't been running in the classrooms, so it's pretty much a non-issue.

    Concealed carry in most places is restricted to those over 21 -- that means most undergrads aren't eligible anyway.

    Then there's the cost of permits, training, and gun purchase. For college students on a budget, it's hard enough making tuition and rent payments, let alone something like the expense of getting a permit.

    Not to mention, college age folks tend to buy into the guns=evil paradigm, and I expect we'll see evidence of it here shortly.
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    Mar 01, 2014 11:32 PM GMT
    I wonder if theres an automatic tranquilizer gun...
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    Mar 02, 2014 12:51 AM GMT
    rkyjockdn said
    woodsmen saidFrom a NYT op-ed: TO the chief counsel of the Idaho State Legislature:

    In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days, I have a matter of practical concern that I hope you can help with: When may I shoot a student?

    I am a biology professor, not a lawyer, and I had never considered bringing a gun to work until now. But since many of my students are likely to be armed, I thought it would be a good idea to even the playing field.

    I have had encounters with disgruntled students over the years, some of whom seemed quite upset, but I always assumed that when they reached into their backpacks they were going for a pencil. Since I carry a pen to lecture, I did not feel outgunned; and because there are no working sharpeners in the lecture hall, the most they could get off is a single point. But now that we’ll all be packing heat, I would like legal instruction in the rules of classroom engagement.

    How do you feel about Idaho allowing all students to bring guns onto campus?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/when-may-i-shoot-a-student.html?src=me&ref=general


    Meh. A number of states (including Colorado) allow concealed permit holders to carry on campus. Blood hasn't been running in the classrooms, so it's pretty much a non-issue.

    Concealed carry in most places is restricted to those over 21 -- that means most undergrads aren't eligible anyway.

    Then there's the cost of permits, training, and gun purchase. For college students on a budget, it's hard enough making tuition and rent payments, let alone something like the expense of getting a permit.

    Not to mention, college age folks tend to buy into the guns=evil paradigm, and I expect we'll see evidence of it here shortly.

    Guns aren't evil. They serve the good function of shooting conservatives who won't shut up. But they don't belong in a school setting.
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    Mar 02, 2014 12:54 AM GMT
    The op-ed continues: At present, the harshest penalty available here at Boise State is expulsion, used only for the most heinous crimes, like cheating on Scantron exams. But now that lethal force is an option, I need to know which infractions may be treated as de facto capital crimes.

    I assume that if a student shoots first, I am allowed to empty my clip; but given the velocity of firearms, and my aging reflexes, I’d like to be proactive. For example, if I am working out a long equation on the board and several students try to correct me using their laser sights, am I allowed to fire a warning shot?

    If two armed students are arguing over who should be served next at the coffee bar and I sense escalating hostility, should I aim for the legs and remind them of the campus Shared-Values Statement (which reads, in part, “Boise State strives to provide a culture of civility and success where all feel safe and free from discrimination, harassment, threats or intimidation”)?
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    Mar 02, 2014 1:14 AM GMT
    lol Americans.
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    Mar 02, 2014 1:17 AM GMT
    The op-ed continues: While our city police chief has expressed grave concerns about allowing guns on campus, I would point out that he already has one. I’m glad that you were not intimidated by him, and did not allow him to speak at the public hearing on the bill (though I really enjoyed the 40 minutes you gave to the National Rifle Association spokesman).

    Knee-jerk reactions from law enforcement officials and university presidents are best set aside. Ignore, for example, the lame argument that some drunken frat boys will fire their weapons in violation of best practices. This view is based on stereotypical depictions of drunken frat boys, a group whose dignity no one seems willing to defend.

    The problem, of course, is not that drunken frat boys will be armed; it is that they are drunken frat boys. Arming them is clearly not the issue. They would cause damage with or without guns. I would point out that urinating against a building or firing a few rounds into a sorority house are both violations of the same honor code.
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    Mar 02, 2014 1:34 AM GMT
    I work at the University of Idaho...no one here wants this stupid bill - a 'solution' in search of a problem.

    Perhaps the B-52s were right.....

    [url][/url]
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    Mar 02, 2014 1:57 AM GMT
    The op-ed continues: In terms of the campus murder rate — zero at present — I think that we can all agree that guns don’t kill people, people with guns do. Which is why encouraging guns on campus makes so much sense. Bad guys go where there are no guns, so by adding guns to campus more bad guys will spend their year abroad in London. Britain has incredibly restrictive laws — their cops don’t even have guns! — and gun deaths there are a tiny fraction of what they are in America. It’s a perfect place for bad guys.
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    Mar 02, 2014 2:31 AM GMT
    If you happen to work at a college or university in Idaho...please sign the petition to stop this stupid law.


    http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-sb-1254.html?fb_action_ids=717454884953013&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582
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    Mar 02, 2014 2:33 AM GMT
    The op-ed concludes: Some of my colleagues are concerned that you are encouraging firearms within a densely packed concentration of young people who are away from home for the first time, and are coincidentally the age associated with alcohol and drug experimentation, and the commission of felonies.

    Once again, this reflects outdated thinking about students. My current students have grown up learning responsible weapon use through virtual training available on the Xbox and PlayStation. Far from being enamored of violence, many studies have shown, they are numb to it. These creative young minds will certainly be stimulated by access to more technology at the university, items like autoloaders, silencers and hollow points. I am sure that it has not escaped your attention that the library would make an excellent shooting range, and the bookstore could do with fewer books and more ammo choices.

    I want to applaud the Legislature’s courage. On a final note: I hope its members will consider my amendment for bulletproof office windows and faculty body armor in Boise State blue and orange.
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    Mar 02, 2014 5:12 AM GMT
    Love your thread.

    It's important that students respect teachers.

    If you students have gun, but not you, they will know they can shout you and get away with it, as they can always argue they felt threatened or had to stand their ground.

    But if teachers have guns too, as they are more likely to feel threatened by aggressive student, they are more likely to get away from legal consequences.

    The ratio of teacher/student gun shot without legal consequences will restore classroom discipline and respect for teachers.
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    Mar 02, 2014 5:27 AM GMT
    Plus there's teacher-administrator conflicts that abound. "I SAID I want TENURE!" **POW*POW*POW**
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    Mar 02, 2014 5:43 AM GMT
    A former biology professor, who was refused tenure, pleaded guilty to fatally shooting three colleagues and wounding three others during a faculty meeting at the University of Alabama in Huntsville in 2010, court officials said.

    http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUqSx/xsGZqhe&user_id=d5d44b1093bbe09f8e45b3f5692cccdc&email_type=eta&task_id=1393739021592959®i_id=0
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    Mar 02, 2014 6:17 AM GMT
    Actually, I believe the established method is to beat in the prof's head with a hammer.

    Or maybe that was Pullman... icon_confused.gif
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    Mar 02, 2014 6:37 AM GMT
    LOL, Canadian pussies
  • rdberg1957

    Posts: 662

    Mar 02, 2014 3:01 PM GMT
    Ignore, for example, the lame argument that some drunken frat boys will fire their weapons in violation of best practices. This view is based on stereotypical depictions of drunken frat boys, a group whose dignity no one seems willing to defend.

    You have a wonderful sense of irony and would make a good essayist a la Jonathan Swift.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14350

    Mar 02, 2014 3:47 PM GMT
    rkyjockdn said
    woodsmen saidFrom a NYT op-ed: TO the chief counsel of the Idaho State Legislature:

    In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days, I have a matter of practical concern that I hope you can help with: When may I shoot a student?

    I am a biology professor, not a lawyer, and I had never considered bringing a gun to work until now. But since many of my students are likely to be armed, I thought it would be a good idea to even the playing field.

    I have had encounters with disgruntled students over the years, some of whom seemed quite upset, but I always assumed that when they reached into their backpacks they were going for a pencil. Since I carry a pen to lecture, I did not feel outgunned; and because there are no working sharpeners in the lecture hall, the most they could get off is a single point. But now that we’ll all be packing heat, I would like legal instruction in the rules of classroom engagement.

    How do you feel about Idaho allowing all students to bring guns onto campus?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/when-may-i-shoot-a-student.html?src=me&ref=general


    Meh. A number of states (including Colorado) allow concealed permit holders to carry on campus. Blood hasn't been running in the classrooms, so it's pretty much a non-issue.

    Concealed carry in most places is restricted to those over 21 -- that means most undergrads aren't eligible anyway.

    Then there's the cost of permits, training, and gun purchase. For college students on a budget, it's hard enough making tuition and rent payments, let alone something like the expense of getting a permit.

    Not to mention, college age folks tend to buy into the guns=evil paradigm, and I expect we'll see evidence of it here shortly.
    Most undergrads are not under 21 anymore. More and more undergrads are older due to either starting college a little later or serving in the military first than going to college afterwards. Going to college from straight out of high school isn't such a good idea anymore unless the high school graduate has a clear idea on what he or she wants to pursue. With college costs spiraling out of control these days, being a professional student is a definite no-no unless the kid comes from immense wealth.
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    Mar 02, 2014 4:08 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    rkyjockdn said
    woodsmen saidFrom a NYT op-ed: TO the chief counsel of the Idaho State Legislature:

    In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days, I have a matter of practical concern that I hope you can help with: When may I shoot a student?

    I am a biology professor, not a lawyer, and I had never considered bringing a gun to work until now. But since many of my students are likely to be armed, I thought it would be a good idea to even the playing field.

    I have had encounters with disgruntled students over the years, some of whom seemed quite upset, but I always assumed that when they reached into their backpacks they were going for a pencil. Since I carry a pen to lecture, I did not feel outgunned; and because there are no working sharpeners in the lecture hall, the most they could get off is a single point. But now that we’ll all be packing heat, I would like legal instruction in the rules of classroom engagement.

    How do you feel about Idaho allowing all students to bring guns onto campus?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/when-may-i-shoot-a-student.html?src=me&ref=general


    Meh. A number of states (including Colorado) allow concealed permit holders to carry on campus. Blood hasn't been running in the classrooms, so it's pretty much a non-issue.

    Concealed carry in most places is restricted to those over 21 -- that means most undergrads aren't eligible anyway.

    Then there's the cost of permits, training, and gun purchase. For college students on a budget, it's hard enough making tuition and rent payments, let alone something like the expense of getting a permit.

    Not to mention, college age folks tend to buy into the guns=evil paradigm, and I expect we'll see evidence of it here shortly.
    Most undergrads are not under 21 anymore. More and more undergrads are older due to either starting college a little later or serving in the military first than going to college afterwards. Going to college from straight out of high school isn't such a good idea anymore unless the high school graduate has a clear idea on what he or she wants to pursue. With college costs spiraling out of control these days, being a professional student is a definite no-no unless the kid comes from immense wealth.


    I was aware of a lot of former military going to school after service, but didn't know that the age of students had shifted so much in general.

    This professor seems to feel that someone who is a responsible concealed permit holder off college property will suddenly become irresponsible and dangerous once he or she sets foot on campus.

    Is there something about a college property boundary that causes a responsible adult the become an inmature child once it's crossed? A lot of colleges are taking "In Loco Parentis" way too seriously, and too many adult students are buying into it.
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    Mar 02, 2014 4:35 PM GMT
    rdberg1957 saidIgnore, for example, the lame argument that some drunken frat boys will fire their weapons in violation of best practices. This view is based on stereotypical depictions of drunken frat boys, a group whose dignity no one seems willing to defend.

    Their dignity? What is this, satire? Poor misunderstood overprivileged white boys from upper-class families? And they need defending?

    Speaking of satirists, you're not bad yourself.
  • chadwick1985

    Posts: 391

    Mar 02, 2014 4:47 PM GMT
    This bill should not stop, it should be passed. I'm sorry for those of you who have your blinders on and can't see the actual benefit of allowing students to carry guns concealed.

    1) Bad guys target those they view as weak or unable to adequately defend themselves. Why else do we see mass shootings in schools (no guns allowed), movie theaters (dark, people focused on movie not guy in back row pulling out gun), Malls (no guns allowed).

    2) if bad guy knows people probably have guns and can also shoot at them they're more likely to choose a new location or not commit their crime at all.

    3) laws prohibiting guns only keep law abiding citizens from carrying guns. Criminals don't obey laws hence the reason they're called criminals.

    4) a person lawfully carrying a firearm is less likely to go on a shooting spree than just about anyone else who has a gun or has access to a gun.

    5) had faculty had guns in Sandy Hook there would have been fewer kids killed as the shooter would have been stopped much quicker. Same with Columbine.

    After Columbine police agencies changed their ROE. Before they would respond, wait for multiple officers or swat then go in. Now they go in and engage immediately upon arrival. Why? Because they know the sooner an active shooter is engaged the fewer innocent people die. If people were lawfully allowed to carry guns then the 4-10 minute average response time from police which is also time the shooter is shooting people goes down. Why because the shooter can be engaged immediately.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14350

    Mar 02, 2014 4:49 PM GMT
    chadwick1985 saidThis bill should not stop, it should be passed. I'm sorry for those of you who have your blinders on and can't see the actual benefit of allowing students to carry guns concealed.

    1) Bad guys target those they view as weak or unable to adequately defend themselves. Why else do we see mass shootings in schools (no guns allowed), movie theaters (dark, people focused on movie not guy in back row pulling out gun), Malls (no guns allowed).

    2) if bad guy knows people probably have guns and can also shoot at them they're more likely to choose a new location or not commit their crime at all.

    3) laws prohibiting guns only keep law abiding citizens from carrying guns. Criminals don't obey laws hence the reason they're called criminals.

    4) a person lawfully carrying a firearm is less likely to go on a shooting spree than just about anyone else who has a gun or has access to a gun.

    5) had faculty had guns in Sandy Hook there would have been fewer kids killed as the shooter would have been stopped much quicker. Same with Columbine.

    After Columbine police agencies changed their ROE. Before they would respond, wait for multiple officers or swat then go in. Now they go in and engage immediately upon arrival. Why? Because they know the sooner an active shooter is engaged the fewer innocent people die. If people were lawfully allowed to carry guns then the 4-10 minute average response time from police which is also time the shooter is shooting people goes down. Why because the shooter can be engaged immediately.
    This looks like NRA propaganda.
  • chadwick1985

    Posts: 391

    Mar 02, 2014 4:51 PM GMT
    moscowmikey saidIf you happen to work at a college or university in Idaho...please sign the petition to stop this stupid law.


    http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-sb-1254.html?fb_action_ids=717454884953013&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582


    Why stop it? It is a smart move. I am guessing just about no one here has read studies on active shooters, why criminals choose their targets the way they do or gone through active shooter training.
  • chadwick1985

    Posts: 391

    Mar 02, 2014 4:53 PM GMT
    @ roadbikebob


    No its not, its information I've obtained through studies, training and experience.
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    Mar 13, 2014 1:27 PM GMT
    Update:

    http://www.idahostatesman.com/2014/03/12/3076771/otter-signs-campus-guns-bill-into.html

    Otter signs campus guns bill into law

    By Statesman staff and wire services

    New law Idaho Gov. Butch Otter on Wednesday signed into law SB 1254, the bill to allow people with Idaho’s enhanced concealed carry permit to bring guns on Idaho public college and university campuses.

    Heated criticism Heads of all eight of the state's public colleges opposed the bill, arguing it would strip policy-making power from universities, stymie recruitment efforts and put those on campus at risk. The bill also sparked a protest that drew hundreds to the Capitol. Otter, who didn’t receive the bill until Tuesday, was pushed to veto it in recent days by the mothers of shooting victims in college mass shootings across the nation, and by Idaho student leaders.

    Second Amendment reigns
    Otter said he backed the bill to protect Second Amendment rights, which already have some exceptions. “This is not the circumstance to carve out another,” Otter wrote. “We all will be watching closely to ensure the interests of Idaho citizens are served while their constitutional freedoms are protected.”

    Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/2014/03/12/3076771/otter-signs-campus-guns-bill-into.html#storylink=cpy