Proposition 8 from another perspective. Ready....aim.......

  • dannyboy1101

    Posts: 977

    Dec 22, 2008 6:28 PM GMT
    Ok, so I tried to reply to another post and I feel it belongs to its own space. I'm sure I'll lose gay popularity points for this one, but I can't hold back on this any longer, and I had no points to start with so what the heck.

    Are there really that many gay couples sitting in dark apartments dwelling on the fact that they can't get a piece of paper? Perhaps there's a whole gay world that I haven't seen yet, but it seems to me that it's hard enough to get a gay man to commit to dinner on a Wednesday let alone a lifetime of marriage. I think that if marriage were legalized, I think it would be a paper nod to gay rights, but it wouldn't be used really (or it would be and divorce lawyers would see their earnings skyrocket because the trick brought in for the 3 way has so much more husband potential). There are plenty of other ways in which we are discriminated against that could be fought, as well, and maybe, just maybe, we could get more rights by fighting baby steps style rather than going straight to the top of the pyramid and bashing our heads against a rock that claims to know more than you about what God wants. Even if it's legalized, do you think tolerance happens overnight? Who wants to have the first gay marriage in a church that ends up with pig's blood on both grooms?

    Here's my main concern: I'm tired of religion getting it's nose into legislation of the land. There is a freedom of religion which conversely could be said that there's a freedom of no religion. If their laws keep going into the country's laws, the country should just be named United States of Church. If we start pushing for government to legislate religion's laws, I think we're opening a nasty door wider. Do I think the right should be there for the few? Yes. Go for civil unions so you get all the benefits of marriage. I just don't want to see the government vs. religion heavyweight title fight because chances are government will just get its ear chewed off. Keep the fighters in their separate corners, please!
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    Dec 22, 2008 6:43 PM GMT
    One of the difficulties gay marriage has had is the nomenclature. And it is a point that we have completely failed to articulate. Gay marriage has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Catholic churches wont be forced by gun point to perform weddings for two guys. What we are fighting for is civil marriage. That is the part of marriage where you go into city hall and file to marry. That is the magic moment where those 1,200+ civil rights are granted. So, we concede that religions can do what ever the heck they want, no problem. But that godless, government institution of marriage is fair game.

    While I agree that can only win this fight gradually, civil unions aren't the way to go as it is a separate institution that federal rights don't even touch.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Dec 22, 2008 6:48 PM GMT
    There is a difference between choosing not to do something and being told you cannot.
  • SFGeoNinja

    Posts: 510

    Dec 22, 2008 10:05 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidOne of the difficulties gay marriage has had is the nomenclature. And it is a point that we have completely failed to articulate. Gay marriage has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Catholic churches wont be forced by gun point to perform weddings for two guys. What we are fighting for is civil marriage. That is the part of marriage where you go into city hall and file to marry. That is the magic moment where those 1,200+ civil rights are granted. So, we concede that religions can do what ever the heck they want, no problem. But that godless, government institution of marriage is fair game.

    While I agree that can only win this fight gradually, civil unions aren't the way to go as it is a separate institution that federal rights don't even touch.


    I could not agree with you more! People fail to distinguish between civil and religious marriage, and I think this is the main point of contention that straight people (those who supported Prop icon_cool.gif have with gay marriage. Often they are not strongly religious nor even homophobic. They (wrongly) fear that by legalizing "gay marriage" the government is unduly intruding into the religious sphere and forcing churches to accept something they see as contrary to scriptures. People forget about civil marriage, which can no longer logically discriminate against gays, because most heteros have religious marriages that cover both the civil and religious aspect.

    One solution of this problem is to restrict the ability of churches to perform civil marriages. People would still have religious ceremonies in order to celebrate with their families and friends, of course, but the legal rights of marriage would be granted later through a much less involved civil ceremony. Obviously many people will disagree with this, but it's something to think about.
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    Dec 22, 2008 10:14 PM GMT
    Timberoo saidThere is a difference between choosing not to do something and being told you cannot.


    Excellent. Well put....

    My 93 y.o. Catholic mom asked me the other night about Jerry Brown's decision to ask the Supreme Court of CA to overturn Prop 8. First, I am "out" to her, and though she is uncomforable with it, she's never said a nasty thing about my being gay.

    However, she is Catholic, and listens to the "Church." So we never discussed Prop 8 before the election and I don't know how she voted.

    So when she asked me this the other night, I simply asked her back if she understood the difference between a Church (rightfully or wrongfully) taking a position on marriage on the basis of gender, or procreation or whatever AND the state getting involved in codifying a religious position.

    She said that she did. So I asked her if she understood that by the overturn of Prop 8 the state would merely stay out of the religious definition of marriage and would not tell her, the Catholic or Mormon Church that gay marriages HAD to be performed in churches. (As an aside, I told her that I thought that the state should just be in the business of legalizing contracts between adults who seek a domestic partnership, and the churches can decide whether they want to call it a "marriage" or not).

    She said...."...oh, so Brown is right to seek the overturn..."

    John
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    Dec 22, 2008 10:18 PM GMT
    Hmmm. 18,000 gay & lesbian couples, some raising families, seemed to be able to commit before being punched in the face with Prop 8 and are now facing forced divorce. You better be careful about your generalizations. You have no idea who you might be pissing off.
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    Dec 22, 2008 11:41 PM GMT
    At the end of the day, while still under the umbrella of equal rights, this has gone beyond equal rights and in a sense has gotten simpler. This boils down to who owns the word marriage and to which dominion it belongs. As I have argued before on other sites about this, if marriage belongs to the church, then so be it. I will get married in my church with no other church telling my church what it can and can not do. Then along with all married couples, gay and straight, apply for a civil union registration to have access to the 1052 civil marriage benefits that are afforded through the government. If marriage belongs to the government, then all heterosexual couples married through the church only should stop getting those tax benefits and will have to register as being a civil union along with gay couples to receive those benefits. Either way, everyone wins in a way that is correct and the debate on the word marriage will be over, completely. While there will always be people who clearly want marriage to be denied to gay couples and gay people who say that they want something different from what the heterosexuals have (yep, believe it or not, there are gay folk who don’t want us to have the right to marry and fail to understand that just because you have the right doesn’t mean you have to exercise it.). the issue will mainly be put to rest and we can move on.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 23, 2008 12:07 AM GMT
    Let's see. If our relationships are just as valid, just as protected, and equal to others, then I guess that is what is so threatening about same sex marriage. I guess it means we really are equal after all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 23, 2008 12:14 AM GMT
    Lets not make this too difficult, it really not that hard


    All I want
    Is what you want
    I'm always waiting
    For a red letter day

    For something special
    Somehow new
    Someone saying i love you
    Baby, I'm waiting
    For that red letter day

    You can sneer
    Or disappear behind a veneer
    Of self-control
    But for all of those who don't fit in
    Who follow their instincts
    And are told they sin
    This is a prayer for
    A different way
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 23, 2008 12:24 AM GMT
    let's follow france's solution to this problem. you can get married in a church but it has no validity in the governments eyes. so go get a jp and get your license at city hall.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 23, 2008 12:28 AM GMT
    mexndachi saidlet's follow france's solution to this problem. you can get married in a church but it has no validity in the governments eyes. so go get a jp and get your license at city hall.


    You can get married in a church in the state, it just has no legal component without that marriage license. My landlords got married in their Unitarian Church, but our state doesn't recognize it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 23, 2008 12:29 AM GMT
    The anti gay marriage movement needs to be loudly informed that the word marriage does not cast a magic spell from disneyland and they don't own the word.
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    Dec 23, 2008 1:53 AM GMT
    I agree. No one is forcing any religion to perform marriages. Sadly, most countries still equate marriage with religion. If we can only convince everyone to adopt Civil Unions (a marriage in all other respects except in name) as the legal template and leave Marriages (a religious union) to churches, everyone would be happy.

    Problem is, religions would scarcely give up their primary chokehold on the government, now would they? *sigh*