Saddleback Church

  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Dec 22, 2008 7:17 PM GMT
    This is from the Saddleback Church Web Site. It just further validates to me that Obama needs to ask Warren to step down from giving the invocation. It is incredible that the leader of this philosophy will stand and give invocation to the nation.


    WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY? Question: What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

    Answer: The Bible very clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.

    "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin." Lev. 18:22 (TLB)

    "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:9-11 (NIV)

    While all sin is destructive, Romans 6 warns us of the great dangers of sexual sin when it says, "Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body." (1 Cor 6:18 NLT) This includes not only homosexuality, but all sexual immorality: adultery, sex outside of marriage and pornography. We must not act as if homosexuality is the only serious sexual sin, and we must not act as if homosexuality is not a serious sexual sin.

    I’ve heard it asked, “Isn’t being homosexual something that a person is physically born with?” First of all, there are absolutely no facts to support this claim. From time to time studies have been reported in the news that seemed to indicate this, but every one of these studies has proven to be wrong. Secondly, even if some physical difference were discovered, it would be no excuse for sin. We know that some people can develop a stronger physical addiction to alcohol than others, but that’s obviously no excuse for living an alcoholic lifestyle.

    Finally, a word about being judgmental. It’s not judgmental to say that what the Bible calls a sin is a sin, that’s just telling the truth. Not being willing to talk to someone caught up in sin or not believing that they can be forgiven or thinking that you are not just as in need of Jesus as they are… that’s being judgmental.

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    Dec 23, 2008 2:14 AM GMT
    I fail to see the issue. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on matters, and what you posted seems rather cut and dry Christian beliefs.

    People often forget that the Bible states the sin of homosexuality falls into the same category as liars, drunks and all other sins.

    As to the third paragraph.. well, I believe that while the act of engaging in sex is obviously a choice, which sex we are attracted to is not within our grasp to control. Don't know anything about the scientific studies as I've never been interested in them. I'm attracted to guys, it is what it is, and surfing for pr0n or reallocating gummie bears from Wal-Mart is a better use of my time.


    P.S. Wal-Mart gummie bears are the fail.
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Dec 23, 2008 2:51 AM GMT
    Buckwheet saidI fail to see the issue. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on matters, and what you posted seems rather cut and dry Christian beliefs.

    People often forget that the Bible states the sin of homosexuality falls into the same category as liars, drunks and all other sins.

    As to the third paragraph.. well, I believe that while the act of engaging in sex is obviously a choice, which sex we are attracted to is not within our grasp to control. Don't know anything about the scientific studies as I've never been interested in them. I'm attracted to guys, it is what it is, and surfing for pr0n or reallocating gummie bears from Wal-Mart is a better use of my time.


    P.S. Wal-Mart gummie bears are the fail.


    Your right, it is a cut and dry right wing Christian issues. However you wouldn't think a man that was just elected, from a good deal of support, from homosexuals, would offer one the main spokespersons for antigay causes, an opportunity to speak at a national forum.
  • SkyMiles

    Posts: 963

    Dec 23, 2008 3:17 AM GMT
    What people should remember is the Bible is a work of FICTION, written by OTHER MEN with their own very worldly points of view over a thousand years ago. Not everything in that book, (jeez, I mean it's as thick as a bible!) is gold.

    "Cuz it sez so in tha BIBLE" means not one damn thing to me, because there are so many other, better books out there written by smarter and more spiritual people. What about Kundera or Gibran? Or Carl Sagan?!! Or J.K. Rowling? icon_razz.gif

    I'm fed up with so-called Christians, the Bible and all the misery in the world that they perpetuate.

    Oh, almost forgot...Merry Christmas! icon_cool.gif
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    Dec 23, 2008 3:29 AM GMT
    However you wouldn't think a man that was just elected, from a good deal of support, from homosexuals, would offer one the main spokespersons for antigay causes, an opportunity to speak at a national forum.

    I think the Gay community just like the Black community needs to stop thinking that Obama will somehow be their personal saviour and champion for all of their agenda. He chose Mr. Warren because he reperesents a bridge to open dialouge between opposing view points. His personal views about homosexulity to me don't relate to the function of giving the incovation. If anything, I hope all the drama surrounding this issue will spark a real dialouge. That's one of the things I liked about Obama in the first place (respectful of all viewpoints). We (gays) need to move beyond these surface controversies and engage someone like Mr. Warren (who by the way is open to a dialouge) on the subject. If both sides are close minded and monolistic in their views, there wil never be progress in educating and changing public opinion.
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    Dec 23, 2008 4:17 AM GMT
    All good points above, I am of the opinion that this prayer Warren will offer is nothing more than some symbolic hot air that will only go as far as his voice carries. I lean toward the opinion that we by yelling so loudly about this, are doing ourselves a disservice, because the attention received over our outcry is not of a positive nature. There are so many more important issues that need attention than this guys prayer, and we will probably get less positive attention now for those more important issues. I think we need less attention on issues like this, and to be doing things to show how we are responsible, everyday good and decent people, going to and from work everyday, contributing to our communities, paying our taxes. and etc. Put us in this light more often than on these kind of issues like this preacher, and we will come closer to our goals much faster.
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    Dec 23, 2008 5:49 AM GMT
    And now, it's gone bye-bye:

    [url]http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/12/rick-warren-pulls-anti-gay-message-from.html/url]
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    Dec 23, 2008 6:05 AM GMT
    ObsceneWish saidAnd now, it's gone bye-bye:

    http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/12/rick-warren-pulls-anti-gay-message-from.html


    Fixed. Mm, wouldn't mind gnawing on Joe's nips.. bet he has some nice hairy ones.
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Dec 23, 2008 1:37 PM GMT
    realifedad said All good points above, I am of the opinion that this prayer Warren will offer is nothing more than some symbolic hot air that will only go as far as his voice carries. I lean toward the opinion that we by yelling so loudly about this, are doing ourselves a disservice, because the attention received over our outcry is not of a positive nature. There are so many more important issues that need attention than this guys prayer, and we will probably get less positive attention now for those more important issues. I think we need less attention on issues like this, and to be doing things to show how we are responsible, everyday good and decent people, going to and from work everyday, contributing to our communities, paying our taxes. and etc. Put us in this light more often than on these kind of issues like this preacher, and we will come closer to our goals much faster.


    I agree with all of this. I just can't get over the fact that this never would have happened if he had said these things, or the church barred, Blacks and/or Jews. It is just like Prop 8 all over again, where a minority, with a history of discrimination, is advancing discrimination of another minority. I thought better of Obama than this. I think if we don't complain, we are tacitly giving approval of this decision. I am afraid that this may happen again in this administration. They are talking about this guy becoming the new Billy Graham.
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    Dec 23, 2008 3:15 PM GMT
    ObsceneWish saidAnd now, it's gone bye-bye:

    http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/12/rick-warren-pulls-anti-gay-message-from.html


    He was probably clued into his double standard with respect to unrepentant gluttons.
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    Dec 23, 2008 3:20 PM GMT
    ParadoxHe was probably clued into his double standard with respect to unrepentant gluttons.

    Somehow, I'm betting the right Rev. Warren is completely comfortable in his world of cognitive dissonance.
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    Dec 23, 2008 3:24 PM GMT
    It's just a prayer for Christ Sake. Obama is not going to ask him to step down. You always have the option of of watching. If this man does not effect policy of laws of the land and he is entitled to his beliefs as you no matter how warped they are. Let it go. We have much larger FISH to fry.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19129

    Dec 23, 2008 3:39 PM GMT
    Gays can be such hypocrites just like everyone else. People are entitled to their religious beliefs - period. If it doesn't work for our lifestyle, that's OUR problem, NOT theirs. We have our beliefs, they have theirs, that's what makes the world go 'round. A President Obama is not going to be the savior of the gays anymore than President Clinton was. He will likely try to bridge the gap between the two sides the best he can, and I happen to believe that his choice of Rick Warren for the inauguration is a first step towards doing that. Start bitching once you hear the prayer if you feel it discriminates against you, but not before. I'm betting that the prayer is inclusive rather than divisive, and that President Obama will see to that. That said, just take a chill pill and see how this plays out before assuming the worst.
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    Dec 23, 2008 6:10 PM GMT
    Ah yes, the old "let's be tolerant of the intolerant" argument. Groan.
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    Dec 23, 2008 6:49 PM GMT
    ObsceneWish saidAh yes, the old "let's be tolerant of the intolerant" argument. Groan.


    It MUST cut both ways, otherwise it's just a bunch of mouths clamoring for entitlement.

    Q: What do you call a person who asks for forgiveness but refuses to forgive others?
    A: A fucking hypocrite.
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Dec 23, 2008 7:01 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidGays can be such hypocrites just like everyone else. People are entitled to their religious beliefs - period. If it doesn't work for our lifestyle, that's OUR problem, NOT theirs. We have our beliefs, they have theirs, that's what makes the world go 'round. A President Obama is not going to be the savior of the gays anymore than President Clinton was. He will likely try to bridge the gap between the two sides the best he can, and I happen to believe that his choice of Rick Warren for the inauguration is a first step towards doing that. Start bitching once you hear the prayer if you feel it discriminates against you, but not before. I'm betting that the prayer is inclusive rather than divisive, and that President Obama will see to that. That said, just take a chill pill and see how this plays out before assuming the worst.


    The biggest difference in letting people have their religious beliefs is that theirs includes taking away basic rights of gay people and those that don't conform to thier beliefs. There is a huge difference in tolerating ones beliefs, when they want to take away your rights.
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    Dec 23, 2008 7:31 PM GMT
    I have a ton of thoughts on this but I've shared enough of my atheist opinions for the time being. What stands out most about this to me is that the quotes come from the TLB (a paraphrased Bible!). How much more made-up can you get!? (oh wait, I have several answers to that too, lol.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_Bible

    icon_twisted.gif
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    Dec 23, 2008 8:03 PM GMT
    The Religous organizations called churches have often changes the translation of the bible. This has been done to control the thinking of thier followers.

    The word Homosexuality has not appeared in the bible until recent years. If you look at older versions of the bible IE..King James..it uses other word, not homosexuality.

    Too bad those Bible followers can not be shown how thier bible has changed, and the true reasons why. It;'s all abotu creating fear in thier followers so they do not think for themselves.
  • Rookz

    Posts: 947

    Dec 23, 2008 8:27 PM GMT
    Cowboiway saidThe Religous organizations called churches have often changes the translation of the bible. This has been done to control the thinking of thier followers.

    The word Homosexuality has not appeared in the bible until recent years. If you look at older versions of the bible IE..King James..it uses other word, not homosexuality.

    Too bad those Bible followers can not be shown how thier bible has changed, and the true reasons why. It;'s all abotu creating fear in thier followers so they do not think for themselves.


    I quite agree that the Bible was once a different language that was translated by man, after man after man. What it is today is just a watered down version of what hateful religious zealots want it to be interpreted for their own benefits. Plus those religious freaks keep forgetting the 10 commandments which ARE the word of God.

    I always ask them if the bible says anything about Jesus hating homosexuals, since Jesus is the son of God, he represents his love. As Jesus stated in Matthew 22:36-40, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Dec 23, 2008 8:38 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidGays can be such hypocrites just like everyone else. People are entitled to their religious beliefs - period. If it doesn't work for our lifestyle, that's OUR problem, NOT theirs. We have our beliefs, they have theirs, that's what makes the world go 'round. A President Obama is not going to be the savior of the gays anymore than President Clinton was. He will likely try to bridge the gap between the two sides the best he can, and I happen to believe that his choice of Rick Warren for the inauguration is a first step towards doing that. Start bitching once you hear the prayer if you feel it discriminates against you, but not before. I'm betting that the prayer is inclusive rather than divisive, and that President Obama will see to that. That said, just take a chill pill and see how this plays out before assuming the worst.


    For once, I agree with everything you've said.

    If Warren says something divisive during the invocation, I will be the first person to hold Obama responsible for sending out the wrong message.

    But the idea that we are going to ostracize our opponents is so undemocratic, it's disgusting. That is the exact kind of thing Obama has been campaigning against for the last two years.

    You all lined up behind this guy. You trashed (and continue to trash) Hillary and you sang his praises all the way to victory. Were all of you naive enough to think Obama was just going to abandon all the promises and backpedal on all the posturing he's done over the last two years to get Christians to somewhat be able to tolerate him?

    The community is only exacerbating this conflict and creating more of a problem for itself by appearing so unreasonable.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 23, 2008 8:57 PM GMT
    I voted for McCain because I knew neither candidate really pushed a gay agenda(McCain decided to be off handed) so I voted my conscience about other issues important to me. I feel it is tragic that the gay community rallied behind a guy who is apathetic to anything more than popularity. The gay vote was sold out and hopefully next election, OBAMAMANIA will not impair the better judgment of the community. Sorry you are disappointed but you elected a crowd pleaser and not an administrator.
  • Rookz

    Posts: 947

    Dec 23, 2008 9:13 PM GMT
    The posting is about the Bible, its interpretation and how it affects us. I don't know why you guys get off tangent but get back to the subject.

    There's another posting for that kind of rant.
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    Dec 23, 2008 9:24 PM GMT
    I read this article by Melissa Etheridge re: Warren, and it's very good, and I hope will change the debate a little.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melissa-etheridge/the-choice-is-ours-now_b_152947.html
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Dec 23, 2008 10:27 PM GMT
    withHonor saidThe posting is about the Bible, its interpretation and how it affects us. I don't know why you guys get off tangent but get back to the subject.

    There's another posting for that kind of rant.


    From the original post:

    Koaa2 saidIt just further validates to me that Obama needs to ask Warren to step down from giving the invocation.


    newbie.jpg


  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Dec 23, 2008 10:36 PM GMT
    matt45710 saidI read this article by Melissa Etheridge re: Warren, and it's very good, and I hope will change the debate a little.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melissa-etheridge/the-choice-is-ours-now_b_152947.html


    I love Melissa. The last part of that is worth posting in its entirety.

    "Brothers and sisters the choice is ours now. We have the world's attention. We have the capability to create change, awesome change in this world, but before we change minds we must change hearts. Sure, there are plenty of hateful people who will always hold on to their bigotry like a child to a blanket. But there are also good people out there, Christian and otherwise that are beginning to listen. They don't hate us, they fear change. Maybe in our anger, as we consider marches and boycotts, perhaps we can consider stretching out our hands. Maybe instead of marching on his church, we can show up en mass and volunteer for one of the many organizations affiliated with his church that work for HIV/AIDS causes all around the world.

    Maybe if they get to know us, they wont fear us."