Justice needs to be served on Bush and his Cohorts !!!! The shoe toss was only a start, so should the New Dept of Justice go after them? What do you think (1) Americans? (2) World onlookers?

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    Dec 23, 2008 1:01 AM GMT
    About a week ago a bipartisan commission released their finding that the Bush/Cheney administration, Rumsfeld in particular set the wheels in motion to promote torture (waterboarding among other previously dissallowed prcedures) This whole administration including Rice, Yoo, and Gonzales to name a few, proceeded to lie to the public saying we don't torture, then blamed the Abu Graib torture on a "few low level" people. come to find out according to this Congressional committee, that the whole adminstration started it, and set up the lower military folk to take the fall. 12 Republican members of this group signed onto the report with no dissagreement about the findings. (McCain was one of the 12) So if the underlings were and maybe still are in jail for it, why shouldn't those who originally approved torture be brought to justice? We punished leaders in other wars for this, why are our own leaders any different? This subject is being discusse a lot in the Washington Post, under Jurisprudence, in the Huffington Post, Common Dreams.org and even in the major medias, through interviews about the subject of torture.(1) So Americans, do we call a spade a spade and bring them to court to answer for their crimes? (2) Citizens of the world, would it restore faith in America if this Bush administration were brought to justice?
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    Dec 23, 2008 1:19 AM GMT
    realifedad said About a week ago a bipartisan commission released their finding that the Bush/Cheney administration, Rumsfeld in particular set the wheels in motion to promote torture (waterboarding among other previously dissallowed prcedures) This whole administration including Rice, Yoo, and Gonzales to name a few, proceeded to lie to the public saying we don't torture, then blamed the Abu Graib torture on a "few low level" people. come to find out according to this Congressional committee, that the whole adminstration started it, and set up the lower military folk to take the fall. 12 Republican members of this group signed onto the report with no dissagreement about the findings. (McCain was one of the 12) So if the underlings were and maybe still are in jail for it, why shouldn't those who originally approved torture be brought to justice? We punished leaders in other wars for this, why are our own leaders any different? This subject is being discusse a lot in the Washington Post, under Jurisprudence, in the Huffington Post, Common Dreams.org and even in the major medias, through interviews about the subject of torture.(1) So Americans, do we call a spade a spade and bring them to court to answer for their crimes? (2) Citizens of the world, would it restore faith in America if this Bush administration were brought to justice?


    wow, you must have taken some amazing acid back in the 60's, dude. what's it like to be on a 40 year trip, you left-over hippy?
  • vindog

    Posts: 1440

    Dec 23, 2008 1:36 AM GMT
    jffrsnndisc0rlnss said
    realifedad said About a week ago a bipartisan commission released their finding that the Bush/Cheney administration, Rumsfeld in particular set the wheels in motion to promote torture (waterboarding among other previously dissallowed prcedures) This whole administration including Rice, Yoo, and Gonzales to name a few, proceeded to lie to the public saying we don't torture, then blamed the Abu Graib torture on a "few low level" people. come to find out according to this Congressional committee, that the whole adminstration started it, and set up the lower military folk to take the fall. 12 Republican members of this group signed onto the report with no dissagreement about the findings. (McCain was one of the 12) So if the underlings were and maybe still are in jail for it, why shouldn't those who originally approved torture be brought to justice? We punished leaders in other wars for this, why are our own leaders any different? This subject is being discusse a lot in the Washington Post, under Jurisprudence, in the Huffington Post, Common Dreams.org and even in the major medias, through interviews about the subject of torture.(1) So Americans, do we call a spade a spade and bring them to court to answer for their crimes? (2) Citizens of the world, would it restore faith in America if this Bush administration were brought to justice?


    wow, you must have taken some amazing acid back in the 60's, dude. what's it like to be on a 40 year trip, you left-over hippy?


    That was an amazing response. If you can't have an intelligent response, just try and make fun of the person.

    Typical neo-republican. I thought you stood for the REAL Republicans? They would never do that....try again, but for now you get the


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    Dec 23, 2008 2:52 AM GMT

    wow, you must have taken some amazing acid back in the 60's, dude. what's it like to be on a 40 year trip, you left-over hippy?[/quote] --------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL !!!!! Guess you can be marked down as one of the uncurious sheeple and want torture, or is that "enhanced interrigations" to be left to stand as -OK !!!! Its interesting that you brought up Hippies, weren't they among the "curious" who questioned their government and wouldn't quietly stand by while their brothers were being killed for no good reason?
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Dec 23, 2008 2:57 AM GMT
    I think they need to be held accountable not only in our country but on the world stage. I think they should be brought up on charges of "Crimes against Humanity", and whatever else at the Hague.
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    Dec 23, 2008 3:06 AM GMT
    atlnvmasc said
    jffrsnndisc0rlnss said
    realifedad said About a week ago a bipartisan commission released their finding that the Bush/Cheney administration, Rumsfeld in particular set the wheels in motion to promote torture (waterboarding among other previously dissallowed prcedures) This whole administration including Rice, Yoo, and Gonzales to name a few, proceeded to lie to the public saying we don't torture, then blamed the Abu Graib torture on a "few low level" people. come to find out according to this Congressional committee, that the whole adminstration started it, and set up the lower military folk to take the fall. 12 Republican members of this group signed onto the report with no dissagreement about the findings. (McCain was one of the 12) So if the underlings were and maybe still are in jail for it, why shouldn't those who originally approved torture be brought to justice? We punished leaders in other wars for this, why are our own leaders any different? This subject is being discusse a lot in the Washington Post, under Jurisprudence, in the Huffington Post, Common Dreams.org and even in the major medias, through interviews about the subject of torture.(1) So Americans, do we call a spade a spade and bring them to court to answer for their crimes? (2) Citizens of the world, would it restore faith in America if this Bush administration were brought to justice?


    wow, you must have taken some amazing acid back in the 60's, dude. what's it like to be on a 40 year trip, you left-over hippy?


    That was an amazing response. If you can't have an intelligent response, just try and make fun of the person.

    Typical neo-republican. I thought you stood for the REAL Republicans? They would never do that....try again, but for now you get the


    Photobucket


    anyone can clearly see that it wasn't an intelligent response. anyone can also see that my unintelligent comment was true.
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    Dec 23, 2008 3:19 AM GMT
    realifedad said
    wow, you must have taken some amazing acid back in the 60's, dude. what's it like to be on a 40 year trip, you left-over hippy?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL !!!!! Guess you can be marked down as one of the uncurious sheeple and want torture, or is that "enhanced interrigations" to be left to stand as -OK !!!! Its interesting that you brought up Hippies, weren't they among the "curious" who questioned their government and wouldn't quietly stand by while their brothers were being killed for no good reason?[/quote]

    Perhaps if you link your source for the log cabin (I forgot his long sn lol) to read... maybe we can debate some actual facts rather than resorting to bickering.

    To my log cabin friend,

    One thing i was always taught is to question authority and those in power: cops, politicians, military commanders, business/sales/retail people, professors/teachers, scientists, etc. Question Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. Same as people questioned Clinton, the Illinois governor, etc.
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    Dec 23, 2008 3:32 AM GMT
    During WWII, we charge Japanese commanders with wars crimes for torturing POWs and civilians. On way they tortured people was via waterboarding. So, in the past, over government charge people with preforming torture on others.

    Recently, in an ABC News interview, Cheney admitted to ordering the use of waterboarding on prisoners.

    Hmmmm.....

    Now, in all fairness, has waterboarding provided us with information in order to stop future terrorist attacks? Is is a more human form of torture than choping off limbs?

    Yet, don't we Americans pride ourselves as being humane and civilized? Do we ask a few soldier to pre.... do we ORDER a few soldiers to preform waterboarding on terrorists... just so everyone else can stay safe... while leaving (most likely) the torturer with emotional scars? How is it monitered... the torture process? By the military? haha sorry but I do not trust the military most of the time.

    What's more... we decry genocide and inhumane acts by other countries... send investigators to join an international team in order to make sure other countries act in a humane way.

    YET, when the international community wishes to investigate Gitmo, we refuse to allow them! Is there a double standard? Is our treatment, or mistreatment, of human prisoners "okay" that we don't need any international check and balances?

    Some things to think about
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Dec 23, 2008 4:11 AM GMT
    Dad..

    You know I support many of your ideas and thoughts about the present administration and some of what has happened over the last 8 years.

    While I may share many of your views in this instance, I think we would be better off moving forward. Bush is about to leave and I think legal action against Bush or members of his cabinet would be difficult to conceive. Best to focus on how best to improve relationships with other countries and repair those damaged.
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    Dec 23, 2008 4:15 AM GMT
    Karma is going to hand Bush a kick in the kisser greater than a size 10 shoe.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19136

    Dec 23, 2008 4:21 AM GMT
    I think you're delusional if you think Bush is going to get any repercussions for anything that happened during his Presidency. Get over it, and move on ---Sheeeesh!
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    Dec 23, 2008 4:30 AM GMT
    I think it is less important we punish the Bush administration than we ensure the violence he has done to civil liberties and government cannot happen again.
  • vindog

    Posts: 1440

    Dec 23, 2008 4:31 AM GMT
    jffrsnndisc0rlnss said
    atlnvmasc said
    jffrsnndisc0rlnss said
    realifedad said About a week ago a bipartisan commission released their finding that the Bush/Cheney administration, Rumsfeld in particular set the wheels in motion to promote torture (waterboarding among other previously dissallowed prcedures) This whole administration including Rice, Yoo, and Gonzales to name a few, proceeded to lie to the public saying we don't torture, then blamed the Abu Graib torture on a "few low level" people. come to find out according to this Congressional committee, that the whole adminstration started it, and set up the lower military folk to take the fall. 12 Republican members of this group signed onto the report with no dissagreement about the findings. (McCain was one of the 12) So if the underlings were and maybe still are in jail for it, why shouldn't those who originally approved torture be brought to justice? We punished leaders in other wars for this, why are our own leaders any different? This subject is being discusse a lot in the Washington Post, under Jurisprudence, in the Huffington Post, Common Dreams.org and even in the major medias, through interviews about the subject of torture.(1) So Americans, do we call a spade a spade and bring them to court to answer for their crimes? (2) Citizens of the world, would it restore faith in America if this Bush administration were brought to justice?


    wow, you must have taken some amazing acid back in the 60's, dude. what's it like to be on a 40 year trip, you left-over hippy?


    That was an amazing response. If you can't have an intelligent response, just try and make fun of the person.

    Typical neo-republican. I thought you stood for the REAL Republicans? They would never do that....try again, but for now you get the


    Photobucket


    anyone can clearly see that it wasn't an intelligent response. anyone can also see that my unintelligent comment was true.


    actually i think most people would disagree. realifedad tends to have thoughtful posts, I just wished he would paragraph them better!
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    Dec 23, 2008 5:06 AM GMT
    I think there's very little chance Bush and his cronies will be called to answer for their illegal acts -- in large part because we now know for sure, thanks to Dick Cheney, that leading Democrats were complicit in those acts. Cheney freely admitted approving torture in his recent interview.

    But I find it very odd that anyone would argue it's best to leave such crimes unprosecuted and unpunished. Glenn Greenwald on Salon.com has been making the point that everyone's going crazy over Gov. Blago's effort to sell a Senate seat, but wants to look the other way insofar as Cheny/Bush's crimes are concerned.

    Several people here say it's more important to "move on" and to take action to prevent the violence Bush has done to our civil liberties.

    Exactly how do you do that if there is no punishment for the crimes? What in the world is there to stop the next crop of White House and Congressional leaders from illegal eavesdropping, detention without habeas corpus and violating the Geneva Conventions?

    These are already illegal acts, so exactly what do you propose doing to insure their enforcement if we repeatedly give the message that the upper political class is exempt from punishment?

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    Dec 23, 2008 5:24 AM GMT
    OW,

    I am just arguing against a feel-good act of revenge. The workings of federal government are not terribly clear to me, I wouldn't know how to go about my proposal to make sure this doesn't happen again. If prosecution is the way to go, then I hope you are on the jury.
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    Dec 23, 2008 5:29 AM GMT
    You know, I think the shoes were enough.

    I'd like to think that the thrown shoes made democratic citizens consider that just because someone has been elected doesn't make them right. Winning an election doesn't bestow wisdom, omniscience or leadership experience on someone, they're just the most skilled at a popularity contest.

    What could be more upsetting to someone who became a world leader through a popularity contest than to realise that they're not all that popular in the world? It's a type of justice anyway.
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    Dec 23, 2008 5:39 AM GMT
    makeumyne saidYou know, I think the shoes were enough.

    I'd like to think that the thrown shoes made democratic citizens consider that just because someone has been elected doesn't make them right. Winning an election doesn't bestow wisdom, omniscience or leadership experience on someone, they're just the most skilled at a popularity contest.

    What could be more upsetting to someone who became a world leader through a popularity contest than to realise that they're not all that popular in the world? It's a type of justice anyway.


    Well, then, let's put Gov. Blago in a dunk tank and maybe put Cheney in a pie-throwing booth.

    Somehow I think these total sociopaths, incapable of ordinary guilty feelings, won't feel especially chastened by carnival-style humiliation. Bush certainly wasn't.

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    Dec 23, 2008 5:49 AM GMT
    I'd boink him if he was 8 years younger.
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    Dec 23, 2008 6:51 AM GMT
    too many ppl had died because of his mistakes;he should be at jail for all the rest of his stupid life, and brought up for charges of crimes against humanity at the Hague.
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    Dec 23, 2008 6:57 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidI think you're delusional if you think Bush is going to get any repercussions for anything that happened during his Presidency. Get over it, and move on ---Sheeeesh!


    Would you advocate moving on from a democratic pesident who did some quesitionable things? Let's say a democratic president illegally taxed the super rich...would you be saying on this forum "Get over it, and move on---Heeesh!"?
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    Dec 23, 2008 7:33 AM GMT
    What are we supposed to do with terrorist?Say to them "now don't go killing our citizens and flying planes into our buildings or we'll have to put you on time-out,ok".I say treat them like the filthy cockroaches that they are and TORTURE them.

    As for the shoe being thrown,President Bush should have taken it and threw right back at the jerk.
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    Dec 23, 2008 7:47 AM GMT
    discojim saidWhat are we supposed to do with terrorist?Say to them "now don't go killing our citizens and flying planes into our buildings or we'll have to put you on time-out,ok".I say treat them like the filthy cockroaches that they are and TORTURE them.

    As for the shoe being thrown,President Bush should have taken it and threw right back at the jerk.


    Lowering ourselves to their level is exactly what they (i.e., the various jihadist groups). Forget the whole morality issue. Torture elicits horrible PR for the US, especially in the western world, leaving the US with less of a "coalition of the willing." Check out the movie, "Traitor." Although it's a work of fiction, it illustrates some of the core strategies employed by terrorists, one of which is that acts of terror are really just highly orchestrated PR/marketing campaigns. If they can gain sympathy because the US violates international law, their cause benefits, not ours.
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    Dec 23, 2008 12:41 PM GMT
    discojim saidWhat are we supposed to do with terrorist?Say to them "now don't go killing our citizens and flying planes into our buildings or we'll have to put you on time-out,ok".I say treat them like the filthy cockroaches that they are and TORTURE them.

    As for the shoe being thrown,President Bush should have taken it and threw right back at the jerk.


    This is my opinion:

    It takes a lot of blind patriotism and hatred to justify your statements. I pity these people... who have been taught and manipulated into believeing America is evil and Islam... radical Islam for that matter... is inerrantly good/right. Think about it... do we blame the Nazi youth or the gernal German people for allowing the Nazi party to take over? Do we blame most of the German population for supporting Hitler? Do we blame all Iraqis, Iranians, and/or Arabs for what is happening in the Middle East? Do we blame terrorists 100% for what they do?

    If you said yes to these questions I ask you: "Are you so morally superior that if you were brought up by radical Islamic parents... would you leave the country for a free country or bring honor to your family and blow yourself up around other Infediles?"

    And will you torture these terrorist? Do you know who emotionally troubling it can be to torture someone? No, someone in the military will do the dirty work for you. If you advocate torture--join the military and do it yourself when ordered... that way the torture can be on your own soul... though it probably wouldn't affect you very much.

    We are all capable of evil. Be thankful that you were brought up in a relatively free country.

    As for your Bush comment... I had to laugh. And I will say what my mother, who is an elementary school teacher, would say to her 1st grade student. "Now, now. Do two wrongs make a right? How did you feel when he threw the shoe at you? Do you want him to feel the same way?"

    Bush handled the situtation in a good way I believe. He let other take care of the reporter and then talked about the shoe throw openly. Why would we want a president who results in immature "an eye for and eye..." activity.
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    Dec 23, 2008 12:42 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidI think it is less important we punish the Bush administration than we ensure the violence he has done to civil liberties and government cannot happen again.


    Sometimes that is why we punish people. Though it has not worked in the past totally. At Nuremberg, we said "Never Again." Yet, there are genocides going on right now at I type.
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    Dec 23, 2008 1:22 PM GMT
    They're never going to be brought to justice. And honestly, it's not necessary. All it is going to do is cause even more division in this country at a time when that is the very last thing we all need. Obama is taking his oath in 4 weeks. And Bush will be GONE! The long national nightmare will be over. What we need is to collectively move on.

    He will never be brought to trial, so it's best to just get over it.