Utopia

  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Mar 21, 2014 4:50 AM GMT
    Hey guys, how's it going?

    Just wanted to vent some of my thoughts on this concept.

    In short, there are few things more terrifying a thought than Utopia.

    There have been many stories in books and films over time to illustrate it in action and I always find the film or book disconcerting and freaky.

    I remember reading the book, The Giver, in my earlier years and it shows what happens in Utopia. Complete and utterly pervasive control of EVERYTHING.

    The reason behind it is always power.

    I saw a trailer of the movie of the The Giver, and regardless of whether it will be good, there is a short line by the Meryl Streep character; "Those who can make choices, choose wrong".

    That line sums up everything wrong with Utopia and otherwise totalitarian regimes. Everyone is expected to be not only sheep, but lobotomised sheep!

    I could go on, and it was only my venting. But please discuss if you wish about your position of Utopia, be it revulsion, like me, or the want for it (I can't imagine why though icon_razz.gif ).
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    Mar 21, 2014 5:17 AM GMT
    I'm not totally familiar with the concept but I hate uniformity and complete conformity so I would likely hate it!
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Mar 21, 2014 5:26 AM GMT
    immunity saidUtopia is a place where there are no right-wing conservatives.


    Quite right.

    Leftist Totalitarianism is the only thing that makes Utopias.

    Good to see you're a sycophant icon_smile.gif
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    Mar 21, 2014 5:36 AM GMT
    I think people confuse having a larger more caring state with the left wanting to dictate everything. Fact is we need both left and right governments and opposing governments to hold each other to account so let's be nice about socialists icon_smile.gif
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Mar 21, 2014 5:39 AM GMT
    Well, first I hate discussing things without at least some agreement about what we're discussing. What do you mean by "utopia?" Clearly one man's "utopia" is another man's "prison" -- just as one man's dessert is another man's poison.

    I'm of the opinion that the civilization we have is dysfunctional to the extreme. We're actually in a very, very dark age and don't even know it. So, what I'm saying is, I believe there is the possibility of having a civilization that is *far* more "enlightened" and "egalitarian" than the one we have -- a civilization that would "look" a lot *like* "utopia" … but not be "utopia" in the sense you're concerned with.

    To get there, though, we have to start thinking WAY outside the box of what makes civilization -- and by "civilization," I mean human interaction on a large scale through a rather long period of time -- work.

    I'm not promoting it, but the *only* contemporary movement I'm aware of that comes even *close* to the kind of out-of-the-box thinking I'm talking about is "The Zeitgeist Movement" (TZM). TZM wants humanity to move beyond MONEY (currency) altogether and posits that "governments" (of any stripe) are antiquated and increasingly irrelevant methodologies. This is what I mean by thinking outside the box.



    Like I say, I'm not advocating TZM, however, I do think it is a good idea for all of us who care about the future of humanity to begin to *think* about these big questions… How can we have a humanity that is more free, more equitable, and more in balance with the natural world? Don't think of it as "utopia," think of it as what may be necessary for our survival!
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Mar 21, 2014 5:47 AM GMT
    MikeW saidWell, first I hate discussing things without at least some agreement about what we're discussing. What do you mean by "utopia?" Clearly one man's "utopia" is another man's "prison" -- just as one man's dessert is another man's poison.

    I'm of the opinion that the civilization we have is dysfunctional to the extreme. We're actually in a very, very dark age and don't even know it. So, what I'm saying is, I believe there is the possibility of having a civilization that is *far* more "enlightened" and "egalitarian" than the one we have -- a civilization that would "look" a lot *like* "utopia" … but not be "utopia" in the sense you're concerned with.

    To get there, though, we have to start thinking WAY outside the box of what makes civilization -- and by "civilization," I mean human interaction on a large scale through a rather long period of time -- work.

    I'm not promoting it, but the *only* contemporary movement I'm aware of that comes even *close* to the kind of out-of-the-box thinking I'm talking about is "The Zeitgeist Movement" (TZM). TZM wants humanity to move beyond MONEY (currency) altogether and posits that "governments" (of any stripe) are antiquated and increasingly irrelevant methodologies. This is what I mean by thinking outside the box.



    Like I say, I'm not advocating TZM, however, I do think it is a good idea for all of us who care about the future of humanity to begin to *think* about these big questions… How can we have a humanity that is more free, more equitable, and more in balance with the natural world? Don't think of it as "utopia," think of it as what may be necessary for our survival!


    I don't see how we're in a "very, very dark age".

    When you say that we "don't even know it", that implies that you just know better than ANYONE else who speaks another opinion. I would dispute that. no society will ever be perfect, but what would you improve? Egalitarianism? But when does that morph into forcing everyone to be the same?

    You see, good intentions pave the road to hell.
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Mar 21, 2014 5:50 AM GMT
    immunity said
    PolitiMAC said
    immunity saidUtopia is a place where there are no right-wing conservatives.
    Quite right.
    Leftist Totalitarianism is the only thing that makes Utopias.
    Good to see you're a sycophant icon_smile.gif
    lol, what
    most people in power ARE right-wing conservatives.


    David Cameron may be a Conservative, but not by much, as can be seen by him saying that "money is no object" when the flooding occurred; that really showed the weakness there.

    Obama? Has America had a more Socialist President? Even if he's no Socialist, he ain't Conservative or anything close to right wing.

    Australia's Labor is REALLY Socialist.

    What right wing conservatives leading the world are you talking about?
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    Mar 21, 2014 6:09 AM GMT
    PolitiMAC said
    immunity said
    PolitiMAC said
    immunity saidUtopia is a place where there are no right-wing conservatives.
    Quite right.
    Leftist Totalitarianism is the only thing that makes Utopias.
    Good to see you're a sycophant icon_smile.gif
    lol, what
    most people in power ARE right-wing conservatives.


    David Cameron may be a Conservative, but not by much, as can be seen by him saying that "money is no object" when the flooding occurred; that really showed the weakness there.

    Obama? Has America had a more Socialist President? Even if he's no Socialist, he ain't Conservative or anything close to right wing.

    Australia's Labor is REALLY Socialist.

    What right wing conservatives leading the world are you talking about?

    Cameron had no choice to say that about the floods if he wants a chance of leading a majority or even a coalition after 2015. Trust me though he is a true blue conservative - look up the bedroom tax!
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Mar 21, 2014 6:10 AM GMT
    PolitiMAC saidI don't see how we're in a "very, very dark age".

    When you say that we "don't even know it", that implies that you just know better than ANYONE else who speaks another opinion. I would dispute that. no society will ever be perfect, but what would you improve? Egalitarianism? But when does that morph into forcing everyone to be the same?

    You see, good intentions pave the road to hell.

    But hell is what the vast majority of humanity has already. Worse, the rest of us who live in the ivory towered luxury of contemporary technological civilization are depleting resources and fouling the planet for all future generations. How "heavenly" is that?

    At what point do we begin to consider what it means to be RESPONSIBLE human beings? That is, responsible for the whole of humanity, not just the privileged few? Responsible for the other species that live on this planet? Responsible for the future of of life on Earth?

    Of course I don't *know* better than anyone else but are you willing to explore this, or have you already painted me with your personal black brush because I see things differently than you do? Yes, technological civilization has brought all kinds of marvels to us that occupy our minds 24/7/365. We're entertaining ourselves to death.

    Meanwhile, billions of people go to bed hungry every night. And it isn't because their nations are poor. Quite the contrary. Their nations are rich with resources. But the people of those nations do not get the benefit of those resources. We do.

    I grew up in a time when it was taken for granted that two superpowers have the right to arm themselves with enough nuclear weapons to mutually annihilate one another -- and take most of the planet with them. This was called "Détente." As a child who grew up in that era, I called it *insanity*. The very idea that intelligent beings could accept this situation as tenable, understandable, reasonable, was, to my mind *proof* that humanity is INSANE.

    So lets not get bogged down in the tired, tried and true assertions about the road to hell. We all know that already. No argument. But does that mean we should stop considering good intentions and what *can* be done to pave the road to paradise? As a first step I'd settle for knowing the energy it takes to fuel my laptop came from a renewable source, how about you?
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Mar 21, 2014 6:31 AM GMT
    MikeW said
    PolitiMAC saidI don't see how we're in a "very, very dark age".

    When you say that we "don't even know it", that implies that you just know better than ANYONE else who speaks another opinion. I would dispute that. no society will ever be perfect, but what would you improve? Egalitarianism? But when does that morph into forcing everyone to be the same?

    You see, good intentions pave the road to hell.

    But hell is what the vast majority of humanity has already. Worse, the rest of us who live in the ivory towered luxury of contemporary technological civilization are depleting resources and fouling the planet for all future generations. How "heavenly" is that?

    At what point do we begin to consider what it means to be RESPONSIBLE human beings? That is, responsible for the whole of humanity, not just the privileged few? Responsible for the other species that live on this planet? Responsible for the further of of life on Earth?

    Of course I don't *know* better than anyone else but are you willing to explore this, or have you already painted me with your personal black brush because I see things differently than you do? Yes, technological civilization has brought all kinds of marvels to us that occupy our minds 24/7/365. We're entertaining ourselves to death.

    Meanwhile, billions of people go to bed hungry every night. And it isn't because their nations are poor. Quite the contrary. Their nations are rich with resources. But the people of those nations do not get the benefit of those resources.

    I grew up in a time when it was taken for granted that two superpowers have the right to arm themselves with enough nuclear weapons to mutually annihilate one another -- and take most of the planet with them. This was called "Détente." As a child who grew up in that era, I called it *insanity*. The very idea that intelligent beings could accept this situation as tenable, understandable, was, to my mind *proof* that humanity is INSANE.

    So lets not get bogged down in the tried and true assumptions that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We all know that already. No argument. That doesn't mean we should not consider good intentions and what *can* be done to pave the road to paradise. I'd settle as a first step knowing that the energy it takes to fuel my laptop came from a renewable source, how about you?


    Why is having a luxurious life a bad thing?

    We're not 'entertaining ourselves to death'.

    Why does being responsible mean we have to be Socialists that give away our money to those who don't earn it?

    We're not depleting resources at any alarming rate, nor are we 'fouling' the planet. That is extreme language that has no basis in reality.

    People suffer in places like Africa because of corrupt and ineffective governments. Noting to do with the Western World or us 'evil, selfish and greedy' people who live here.

    Saying that the Western World is some bloated, selfish and effectively destructive thing is ridiculous. It has its problems, sure, but compare us to any other society. The US, Australia and most of Europe have excellent existences that allow work, success, failure, entertainment, luxury, growth and so many other things.

    Asia and Africa? Pretty much none of it. Africa is worse, but Asia aren't far off.

    I was discussing this with a lady friend of mine, and this Lefty view on having success and excess is bad is just stupid. Why aren't people allowed to get what they want? If someone can work towards a goal and gain the means of which to obtain that goal and without impinging on the rights of others, then I say go for it. Regardless of what poor African child dies within every minute. Making ourselves poor or feeling like we're the wrongdoers is not going to help any other country or even our own.

    Successful and rich people start businesses. Businesses employ people. Employment makes work get done. Work is rewarded with money. Money makes the world go 'round. People who get more money start businesses and on the cycle goes.

    Not as simple as that in many cases, sure, but that's what we should be promoting. Not redistribution of wealth to those who don't earn it or wallowing in the White Man's Burden and victimisation of denominations of certain people.
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Mar 21, 2014 6:33 AM GMT
    Oh, ok. I see having a conversation with you is going nowhere.

    Bye.
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    Mar 21, 2014 6:33 AM GMT
    Those who run the world (no not Beyoncé) icon_rolleyes.gif

    The Utopian Corporation
    http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/history/yeager/lipartito.pdf


  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Mar 21, 2014 6:56 AM GMT
    MikeW saidOh, ok. I see having a conversation with you is going nowhere.

    Bye.


    Just because you disagree, I'm just not worth listening to.

    Ok icon_cool.gif
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Mar 21, 2014 8:55 AM GMT
    PolitiMAC said
    MikeW saidOh, ok. I see having a conversation with you is going nowhere.

    Bye.

    Just because you disagree, I'm just not worth listening to.

    Ok icon_cool.gif

    Honey, you and I don't just "disagree." It is obvious from what you've said so far that even attempting a conversation with you would do nothing but provide a platform for regurgitating your neoconservative talking points. You're an elitist who arrogates all value, worth and intelligence to yourself, the kind of person who would happily fuck everyone and everything else on this planet to gratify your own sense of superiority and entitlement. I don't mind waisting my time in fun and frivolity but attempting to engage a self-centered robot in intelligent conversation is not merely a waste, it's a travesty.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Mar 21, 2014 11:07 AM GMT
    PolitiMAC,

    It looks like you have Utopia and Dystopia confused. There is nothing inherently totalitarian about a Utopian society.
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Mar 21, 2014 11:29 AM GMT
    creature saidPolitiMAC,

    It looks like you have Utopia and Dystopia confused. There is nothing inherently totalitarian about a Utopian society.


    Oh, but there is. To ensure compliance in everyone, you would need to control everything they did.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Mar 21, 2014 3:29 PM GMT
    PolitiMAC said
    creature saidPolitiMAC,

    It looks like you have Utopia and Dystopia confused. There is nothing inherently totalitarian about a Utopian society.


    Oh, but there is. To ensure compliance in everyone, you would need to control everything they did.


    Again, you are looking at a dystopia. You can have a community where members mutually respect each other and there is no need to control everyone to ensure compliance. As soon as you introduce totalitarianism, or shift the power away from the collective, you no longer have a Utopia.
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    Mar 21, 2014 3:34 PM GMT
    As a basic point of view i think everyone is conservative to the fact that everyone looks after themselves, but.....

    To me why is is that all conservatives seem to always take from the workers e.g. Socialists and try to ruin them

    There comes a point in life that everyone needs to muck in and yes that means that even the conservatives themselves will need help.

    Centuries ago we had true conservatives who where basically the elite but they cared for their workers (maybe they could have done more) but they made work for people and made money.

    Modern conservatives just want money, profit, etc

    I totally disagree with all the policies that the conservatives have done with respect to privatising water, why should someone make a profit out of that ?

    If we where all conservative and rich (conservatives always seem to be rich) then that would just paradoxically make everyone poor, on the other hand not everything can survive as a socialist state

    I could rant on more but i shall leave it there haha
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    Mar 21, 2014 3:36 PM GMT
    Thom1993 saidI'm not totally familiar with the concept but I hate uniformity and complete conformity so I would likely hate it!


    The thing about a utopian society is you wouldn't know what conformity is, you would be brainwashed from birth that being different is bad/deadly.
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    Mar 21, 2014 3:40 PM GMT
    Why is anyone bothering to argue with PolitiNerd? He is 18 and already knows everything.
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Mar 21, 2014 3:52 PM GMT
    Phoenyx said
    Thom1993 saidI'm not totally familiar with the concept but I hate uniformity and complete conformity so I would likely hate it!

    The thing about a utopian society is you wouldn't know what conformity is, you would be brainwashed from birth that being different is bad/deadly.

    Why on earth would you think that a utopia is a place where everyone thinks alike and *must* think alike. That, to me, wouldn't be a utopia. That would be a prison… sort of like what we have now.

    As for brainwashing, we're already brain washed. Right now we live in a world which only thinks in terms of "right" and "left," politically. Thinking outside the box means dumping what we'e been TOLD to believe is "the way things are" or "the way things have to be".

    A "utopia" based on enforced conformity is not a utopia, indeed that *is* a totalitarian state. But that's not a utopia. We're free to imagine what kind of world we'd like to have and then to ask questions about why that world isn't possible now. Why can't we have a world where energy is free and abundant? Why can't we have a world where health needs are met without monetary cost? Why can't we have a world where human rights are universally respected? Why can't we have a world where we feel a direct connection with the other plants and animals that make up life on earth? …. I could go on but the point is, asking these kinds of questions helps us understand where we are, what we want, and what might be possible.

    The world we have was something dreamed up by a visionary at some point in the past. The world isn't as it is because it "just happened"… it is the result of the ideas, dreams and decisions that people have made collectively throughout the history that precedes us. If we want a better world for ourselves or the children to come, we have to think about how things can be made better -- and done so in a way that does NOT require more laws, more government -- but just the opposite, fewer laws and less government.
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Mar 21, 2014 3:53 PM GMT
    Sharkadelic saidWhy is anyone bothering to argue with PolitiNerd? He is 18 and already knows everything.

    Yeah, I see that. People who don't ask questions, especially about what they already *think they know* are the least interesting people on the planet.
  • PolitiMAC

    Posts: 728

    Mar 23, 2014 8:12 AM GMT
    MikeW said
    Sharkadelic saidWhy is anyone bothering to argue with PolitiNerd? He is 18 and already knows everything.

    Yeah, I see that. People who don't ask questions, especially about what they already *think they know* are the least interesting people on the planet.


    Funny how you think you know me. Assumption is the mother of all fuckups, you know.

    And Shark Person (name changes too often), it's PolitiMAC now icon_wink.gif
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    Mar 23, 2014 6:09 PM GMT
    Shouldnt we all just agree that we are all doomed!!!
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Mar 23, 2014 6:12 PM GMT
    Dennis1989 saidShouldnt we all just agree that we are all doomed!!!
    LOL Oh well!