GAZA STRIP STRIKES TODAY BY ISRAEL

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    Dec 27, 2008 7:02 PM GMT
    Are those people over there just suffering from a bad case of stupid? STOP THE INSANITY already and just get along. It just seems like one endless game of finger-pointing and blame and tit for tat. Meanwhile, both sides lead this life of fear and bitterness for the other. It's just ridiculous. How many more hundreds of years do they want to go on like this?
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    Dec 27, 2008 7:04 PM GMT
    Evidently the Gazians have been shelling Israel for a while.....I dont know why.....so finally Israel retaliated. There is no end over there.
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    Dec 27, 2008 7:15 PM GMT
    Israel should retaliate. What a bunch of idiots.
  • Menergy_1

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    Dec 27, 2008 10:58 PM GMT
    Do you really want another interminable thread about this issue (see elsewhere on RJ about the history and the blame and on and on and on...)

    They're never going to stop - either side.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Dec 27, 2008 11:14 PM GMT
    AbFab1 saidDo you really want another interminable thread about this issue (see elsewhere on RJ about the history and the blame and on and on and on...)

    They're never going to stop - either side.


    They said the same about northern Ireland. "It's the same old scene since 1916, in your head, in year head they're still dieing" (Bonus points for whoever can name the artist).

    A reporter once asked Abraham Lincoln to tell them one true thing. His response was very intelligent. "..and this to shall pass." Nothing lasts forever, no individual, no company, no country, no conflict. Not even the planet will last forever.
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    Dec 27, 2008 11:53 PM GMT
    The Israeli-Palestinian unrest has been going on for a while, really from 1948 when Israel became a sovereign nation in its own right. The dispute goes back further, when the Balfour Declaration was signed in 1918 to allow the Jews to their own land. The Palestinians claim the land as theirs. They say that the Jews, under the Zionist movement, invaded their country. So while the Israeli tries to govern fairly, the Arabs had fired bombs into their territory ever since. In other words, the Arab Palestinians had harassed Israel since its beginnings. When Israel retaliates just to protect itself and its people, the Media cries that Israel is the bully. The BBC, for one, is notoriously biased for the Arabs, and this institution claims that the Arabs are the victims of Israeli bully tactics. Today, the newscaster actually groaned when the news of the Israeli attack was broadcast. The Media has little or no compassion for the Jews, yet it is they who are constantly harassed.
    There is one very important spot in Southern Israel which holds the key to whom the land belongs. I have visited the place myself. It is the tomb in Hebron over which a Christian church was built. Later, the Moslem Arabs converted it into a mosque. The building covers a cave which holds the remains of Abraham, his wife Sarah; Abraham's son Isaac and his wife Rebekah; and Jacob with his wife Leah. Thus Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were the founding fathers of the nation of Israel, therefore the land is theirs.
    Abraham had never visited Mecca as the Arabs claimed. His firstborn son, Ishmael, from the slave girl Hagar, were dismissed from Sarah's tent for mocking baby Isaac, and they settled in the land of Paran, hundreds of miles away from Hebron. Ishmael married an Egyptian girl and later died there. His tomb has no connection with Hebron. Today, the Arab Palestinians has no more claim to that land than they did thousands of years earlier.
  • Nef_Pop

    Posts: 29

    Dec 27, 2008 11:56 PM GMT
    [quote]

    They said the same about northern Ireland. "It's the same old scene since 1916, in your head, in year head they're still dieing" (Bonus points for whoever can name the artist).

    [/quote]

    Cranberries - "Zombie" icon_smile.gif right?


    although I agree with you JackSnack I wish that they would SIMPLY STOP and live in peace but its hard for them to just stop because all their lives they grow up simply hating each other and sometimes they don't even know why.

    From my experience the hate is more on the Palestinian side, some of them hate Jews for the simple fact that they are Jewish despite knowing nothing about the region's history and the history of Christianity, Judaism and Islam etc etc

    I grew up in Saudi Arabia and had many friends that have Palestinian backgrounds who seem to have an automatic hate for Jews despite not knowing any. Its kind of like the whole "That's so gay" phrase but they say "That's so Jewish" and other comments that are 1,000 times worse. people are just ignorant

    Also the thing with Israel "not retaliating" is because they want peace and they do not want to look like tyrants because they have all the technology and weaponry while the Palestinians mostly have rocks and home made bombs, and they want the Palestinians who continue to attack them to realize that even though they DO have the power to over take them they don't want to, they just want to live in peace.

    or that's how i see it at least...
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    Dec 28, 2008 12:23 AM GMT
    http://apnews.myway.com//article/20081227/D95BAKU80.html

    || JERUSALEM (AP) - Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security installations in Hamas-ruled Gaza on Saturday, killing at least 225 people in one of the bloodiest days in decades of the mideast conflict. The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket and mortar attacks that have traumatized southern Israel. ...Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead.

    In the past 3 days, after Hamas refused to renew a ceasefire which expired last week, southern Israel has had 300 rockets launched at it. In the city of Sderot, residents have to stay within 15 seconds of bomb shelters (that's all the warning they get).

    So let's not just drone that the "cycle of violence" continues. The pattern is clear: Arab/Muslim terrorists reject peace and target innocent Israeli civilians, murdering as many as they can in cold blood. Israel retaliates against those terrorists, doing the best it can to avoid civilian casualties.


    NotThatOld> When Israel retaliates just to protect itself and its people, the Media cries that Israel is the bully.

    At least one of the rockets launched by the Arab/Muslim terrorists misfired and landed inside Gaza, killing two young Arab girls. Had an Israeli bomb killed them this would have been a front page banner headline. The story was virtually ignored. Proving that often the trend isn't about concern for innocent civilians (especially not if they are Israeli) but about using them to demonize Israel.


    Beachbum248> I grew up in Saudi Arabia and had many friends that have Palestinian backgrounds who seem to have an automatic hate for Jews despite not knowing any

    It becomes even more surprising as you move away from the "confrontation" states (those bordering Israel). For example, in Pakistan.


    See also these previous topics:

    "Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland - and Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine".
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491

    In search of a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict: UNSCR 242, Oslo and Camp David/Taba (Or: I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!)
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843
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    Dec 28, 2008 12:38 AM GMT
    JockSnack2008 saidAre those people over there just suffering from a bad case of stupid? STOP THE INSANITY already and just get along. It just seems like one endless game of finger-pointing and blame and tit for tat. Meanwhile, both sides lead this life of fear and bitterness for the other. It's just ridiculous. How many more hundreds of years do they want to go on like this?


    Israel said beforehand, "If you launch rockets into Israel, then we'll retaliate." Simple enough right? But nooo...not easy enough to understand for the Hamas.

    Just imagine if the US told Mexico not to launch rockets into the US and then Mexico launched rockets into the US. What do you think the US would do? lol
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    Dec 28, 2008 1:01 AM GMT
    jakebenson said
    JockSnack2008 saidAre those people over there just suffering from a bad case of stupid? STOP THE INSANITY already and just get along. It just seems like one endless game of finger-pointing and blame and tit for tat. Meanwhile, both sides lead this life of fear and bitterness for the other. It's just ridiculous. How many more hundreds of years do they want to go on like this?


    Israel said beforehand, "If you launch rockets into Israel, then we'll retaliate." Simple enough right? But nooo...not easy enough to understand for the Hamas.

    Just imagine if the US told Mexico not to launch rockets into the US and then Mexico launched rockets into the US. What do you think the US would do? lol


    It's a bit more complicated than that because Israel has acted disproportionately.

    If I slap someone in the face and they retaliate by shooting me with a gun, then they're in the wrong.



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    Dec 28, 2008 1:05 AM GMT
    Its a tough nut to swallow when a group of people (Hamas) believe, teach and/or profess to their own (starting w/ children) that Jews (wherever they may reside) and the country of Israel (a complete second topic in its own) do not posses a right to exist. Now, I should mention, it isn't simply Hamas that believe this either - there are many others around the globe who feel the same. That said, those others don't propel bombs into residential neighborhoods and/or mind-f*ck one of their own into strapping an explosive device around their body in order to detonate it in a crowd of innocent people all in the name of ... whatever it is their rhetoric claims.

    Funny thing, Hamas is just the "end user" so-to-speak. They're fueled by other groups to carry out their dirty work ... and by doing so receive "honor" and "financial security for their families." Its a double headed serpent.

    Many years ago it was the PLO, then Fatah, then another group and another -- all with the same mission: kill and eradicate Jews from the planet (ala Nazi Germany) and wipe the country Israel from the map. The names have changed...the "version" has evolved...but the impetus remains the same.

    These destructive people could care less about peace, about creating a healthy, prosperous and happy geographic area for their own...all they care about is the termination of Jews & Israel, period.

    All the massive amounts of energy they put forth to destroy Jews and Israel should be harnessed into positive energy to help themselves build a future for their own.

    But, they don't get that - and never will.



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    Dec 28, 2008 1:07 AM GMT
    JockSnack2008 saidIsrael should retaliate. What a bunch of idiots.


    They should only ever retaliate proportionately.

    Killing hundreds of people in response to amateur rockets is probably a war crime.

    http://rightslaw.org/?p=5

    What looks like collective punishment of uninvolved civilians in retaliation for the actions of hamas also has the appearance of a war crime.
  • swimbikerun

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    Dec 28, 2008 1:08 AM GMT
    It's easy to understand which side is being treated unfairly. Would you rather be occasionally attacked by rockets or face the full wrath of the Israeli army?
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    Dec 28, 2008 1:13 AM GMT
    B787These destructive people could care less about peace, about creating a healthy, prosperous and happy geographic area for their own...all they care about is the termination of Jews & Israel, period.


    While I respect you personally, I think your argument here is borderline racist.
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    Dec 28, 2008 1:27 AM GMT
    swimbikerun saidIt's easy to understand which side is being treated unfairly. Would you rather be occasionally attacked by rockets or face the full wrath of the Israeli army?


    Gee Swim, your comment proves how little you know about this matter -- best to educate yourself before you state a baseless remark. But here, I'll help you some...during the alleged "cease fire" Hamas has launced 300 mortars into small neighborhoods populated by young families (average parental age is 28-32 with infants or small children up to the age of 6). That is 300 bombs: 1 of which will decimate homes, schools, stores, etc. Oh, lets not forget that that last time Israel fought back, it did so after 1,200 bombs had been propelled during an alleged "cease fire." The only reason, thousands upon thousands of people aren't dead is because Israel has technology and weapons to intercept these bombs -- but sadly, many get through.

    Lastly, if the full wrath of the Israeli army would attack, there wouldn't be a spec of remains left of those they attacked, anywhere. But, Israel isn't an agressor of violence nor do they practice behavior that would do such a thing. BTW: did you know that many Hamas and Palestinian military strongholds (buildings) deliberately place nursery or kindergarten schools in their same buildings? Imagine that...so if and when Israel retaliates solely towards a military position -- you hear of other casualties.

    QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREJockSnack2008 said
    Israel should retaliate. What a bunch of idiots.
    They should only ever retaliate proportionately.
    Killing hundreds of people in response to amateur rockets is probably a war crime.
    Collective punishment of uninvolved civilians in retaliation for the actions of hamas is also probably a war crime.


    Hey Jock, first of all, their rockets are not amateur, they're rockets that kill, mame and destroy, period. There is no distinction between bombs like the quality of a pair of shoes. And, check your facts, its not a war crime to defend oneself in ones own country from agressors who want to kill you to take it away.

    You all have a nice holiday season.
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    Dec 28, 2008 1:28 AM GMT
    Lost_In_The_Mail said
    B787These destructive people could care less about peace, about creating a healthy, prosperous and happy geographic area for their own...all they care about is the termination of Jews & Israel, period.


    While I respect you personally, I think your argument here is borderline racist.



    Now that is funny...my comment is documented fact. All you have to do is listen to or read their creed(s).

    Educate yourself before you toss out an immature opinion.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Dec 28, 2008 1:46 AM GMT
    B787 said

    Gee Swim, your comment proves how little you know about this matter -- best to educate yourself before you state a baseless remark. But here, I'll help you some...during the alleged "cease fire" Hamas has launced 300 mortars into small neighborhoods populated by young families (average parental age is 28-32 with infants or small children up to the age of 6). That is 300 bombs: 1 of which will decimate homes, schools, stores, etc. Oh, lets not forget that that last time Israel fought back, it did so after 1,200 bombs had been propelled during an alleged "cease fire." The only reason, thousands upon thousands of people aren't dead is because Israel has technology and weapons to intercept these bombs -- but sadly, many get through.

    Lastly, if the full wrath of the Israeli army would attack, there wouldn't be a spec of remains left of those they attacked, anywhere. But, Israel isn't an agressor of violence nor do they practice behavior that would do such a thing. BTW: did you know that many Hamas and Palestinian military strongholds (buildings) deliberately place nursery or kindergarten schools in their same buildings? Imagine that...so if and when Israel retaliates solely towards a military position -- you hear of other casualties.

    First of all it's an opinion and it's also a simple one. I mentioned nothing about an aggressor, it's just your skewed ranting.

    As this article points out:

    Thus the death ratio of “Palestinians killed by current air strikes”/”Israelis killed from Gaza rocket attacks since 2001” = 205/23 = 8.9

    Nothing you've posted refutes this observation.

    Lost_In_The_Mail said
    B787 - 225 people die and your response is 'oh good they deserve it'. I don't think you view the Palestinians as fully equal.

    Funny how deaths always seem so much more justifiable when nobody you know has to do the dying. Yeah, real fucking funny.
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    Dec 28, 2008 1:53 AM GMT
    B787 said
    Lost_In_The_Mail said
    B787These destructive people could care less about peace, about creating a healthy, prosperous and happy geographic area for their own...all they care about is the termination of Jews & Israel, period.


    While I respect you personally, I think your argument here is borderline racist.



    Now that is funny...my comment is documented fact. All you have to do is listen to or read their creed(s).

    Educate yourself before you toss out an immature opinion.


    B787 - 225 people die and your response is 'oh good they deserve it'. I don't think you view the Palestinians as fully equal.

    Gallery2-9778.jpg

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/dec/27/gaza-attacks-israel-palestine?picture=341111290

    Israel has a right to defend itself, but it must only ever act proportionately.
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    Dec 28, 2008 1:56 AM GMT
    Lost_In_The_Mail said
    jakebenson said
    JockSnack2008 saidAre those people over there just suffering from a bad case of stupid? STOP THE INSANITY already and just get along. It just seems like one endless game of finger-pointing and blame and tit for tat. Meanwhile, both sides lead this life of fear and bitterness for the other. It's just ridiculous. How many more hundreds of years do they want to go on like this?


    Israel said beforehand, "If you launch rockets into Israel, then we'll retaliate." Simple enough right? But nooo...not easy enough to understand for the Hamas.

    Just imagine if the US told Mexico not to launch rockets into the US and then Mexico launched rockets into the US. What do you think the US would do? lol


    It's a bit more complicated than that because Israel has acted disproportionately.

    If I slap someone in the face and they retaliate by shooting me with a gun, then they're in the wrong.




    Yeah Israel hit back harder but you're not going to crush the enemies will to fight by throwing sand in their eyes. Israel is responsible enough to only intentionally target legal targets. No schools, hospitals, power companies, etc. They could have gone scorched Earth on Gaza if they wanted to.

    More than likely there will be collateral losses. However, there are rules of engagement. If civilians are killed intentionally, accidentally, needlessly whatever it will be investigated and appropriate measures will be taken to hopefully prevent it from happening again. Also those who were in the wrong will receive the appropriate corrective actions. Of course there is no way to 100% prevent collateral loss in war but the least a legitimate governments can do is be responsible with their power and Israel is being responsible.

    Really at the heart of all this is corrupted religion steering Muslim extremists warped by violent interpretations of their religious beliefs. The truth is, until Islam is unified under a more conservative and peaceful interpretation of the Quran there will always be Muslim extremists willing to kill/ die. How do you make somebody understand that killing is wrong when they believe with all their soul that martyrdom is the highest honor one can achieve?

    Gay marriage will be legal in all 50 US states long before Muslim extremists adopt a more peaceful way of honoring Allah. Even if Israel wipes out Hamas (not likely), there is still Hezbollah in Lebanon, and al-Qaeda and the Taliban all over the world. Don't know if you heard but Syria and Iran are not fans of Israel either. PKK, Abu Sayyaf, al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban... All classified terrorist organizations. All Muslim extremist. If you think a cease fire on the part of Israel will bring peace in the Middle East then you my friend are worse than Hitler...

    I'm not saying kill kill kill but I am saying I support Israel doing what's necessary to protect its people.
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    Dec 28, 2008 2:03 AM GMT
    BakeJensonI'm not saying kill kill kill but I am saying I support Israel doing what's necessary to protect its people.


    I agree with your last sentence.

    My point is that they have gone far beyond what is necessary for defense. This is a disproportionate response. This looks to be the biggest attack since 1967. There are already 225 dead by the most conservative estimates.

    Peaceful coexistance is possible, but this isn't the way to go about it.
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    Dec 28, 2008 2:07 AM GMT
    Lost_In_The_Mail> Israel has acted disproportionately.
    Killing hundreds of people in response to amateur rockets is probably a war crime.
    Collective punishment of uninvolved civilians in retaliation for the actions of hamas is also probably a war crime.

    What exactly is a proportionate response to 300 rockets being fired in 3 days... after years of terrorist attacks?

    Some people respond as if Israel killed 225 civilians rather than targeted terrorist bases and operation centers... killing 210 terrorists and (inadvertantly) 15 civilians.

    There is no violation of the Geneva Conventions ("war crime") here.
    Unlike with the intentional targeting of Israeli and other civilians by Arab/Muslim terrorists.

    If NATO forces did something like this in Afghanistan people would congratulate them.
    Why is there such a double-standard - especially in Europe - toward Israel?



    B787> These destructive people could care less about peace, about creating a healthy, prosperous and happy geographic area for their own...all they care about is the termination of Jews & Israel, period.

    SInce B787 was talking about Hamas, there is nothing "racist" about it. Is it also racist to speak negatively of Al Qaida? The sentiment expressed by B787 is echoed even in the Arab world. From Lebanon's Daily Star:

    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=98658
    || it is also worth questioning what Hamas has made of Gaza, a territory that could have once served as an encouraging example of what Palestinians could achieve when Israeli occupation ended. Instead, what we have is a failed political order, and one cannot blame this solely on Israeli pressures. Hamas has chosen the armed struggle, which required overcoming Fatah in Gaza before transforming the area into a garrisoned statelet. ...the only things Palestinians in Gaza can look forward to is the prospect of more carnage ahead. Hamas is not a state-building enterprise, it is a military movement that plays politics to retain the military option. The dystopia it offers is many decades more of the gun, and like Zaidi's shoes, the gun has left no room for discussion of an alternative, more desirable Palestinian future.


    swimbikerun> Death ratio

    During WW II more Germans were killed than American, British and French combined. Does this mean that the nazis were the poor victims of allied aggression?!


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    Dec 28, 2008 2:12 AM GMT
    Lost_In_The_Mail said
    BakeJensonI'm not saying kill kill kill but I am saying I support Israel doing what's necessary to protect its people.


    I agree with your last sentence.

    My point is that they have gone far beyond what is necessary for defense. This is a disproportionate response. This looks to be the biggest attack since 1967. There are already 225 dead by the most conservative estimates.

    Peaceful coexistance is possible, but this isn't the way to go about it.


    So what should they have done? Diplomacy was attempted and Hamas continued to allow rocket attacks on Israel's Southern border...
  • swimbikerun

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    Dec 28, 2008 2:19 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 said

    swimbikerun> Death ratio

    During WW II more Germans were killed than American, British and French combined. Does this mean that the nazis were the poor victims of allied aggression?!


    I didn't bring up the death ratio, B787 did.We needn't get into body count to try and determine who's right and who's wrong.
    All I asked was: which side would you rather live on? The Gaze side or the Israeli side? Does your answer imply who's getting a 10 to 1 pounding?

    Please don't tell me killing people is the way to peace. Out seven million people in Israel, I cannot be convinced Israel is fighting for it's life against rocket attacks.
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    Dec 28, 2008 2:24 AM GMT
    bakejenson said
    Lost_In_The_Mail said
    BakeJensonI'm not saying kill kill kill but I am saying I support Israel doing what's necessary to protect its people.


    I agree with your last sentence.

    My point is that they have gone far beyond what is necessary for defense. This is a disproportionate response. This looks to be the biggest attack since 1967. There are already 225 dead by the most conservative estimates.

    Peaceful coexistance is possible, but this isn't the way to go about it.


    So what should they have done? Diplomacy was attempted and Hamas continued to rocket Israel's Southern border...




    Long term, all sides should work towards peaceful co-existance. South Africa and Northern Ireland show that is possible. A disproportionate attack is not part of that picture.
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    Dec 28, 2008 2:32 AM GMT
    CaesarDuring WW II more Germans were killed than American, British and French combined. Does this mean that the nazis were the poor victims of allied aggression?!



    No, the Allied response to Nazis aggression was entirely proportionate to the threat.

    The current Israeli action in Gaza is disproportionate and therefore probably contrary to international law.