Koch brothers and large utilities have solar industry in their sights

  • metta

    Posts: 39090

    Apr 22, 2014 11:50 PM GMT
    Conservative heavyweights have solar industry in their sights

    The Koch brothers and large utilities have allied to reverse state policies that favor renewable energy. Environmentalists are pushing back, but the fight is spreading and intensifying.


    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-solar-kochs-20140420,0,7412286.story


    Boycott Koch Industries: Avoid These Brands
    http://www.chailife.com/2011/02/boycott-koch-industries-avoid-these-brands/
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 22, 2014 11:58 PM GMT
    no offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)
  • metta

    Posts: 39090

    Apr 23, 2014 12:01 AM GMT
    ^
    I have had quite a few neighbors add them to their homes and they tell me that they are saving a lot of money. Their electric bills used to sometimes go over $500 and now they don't pay anything. When it makes more then they use they just leave the credits in the account to cover the higher use months. They feel that it was well worth it for them. How is it a waste of time and resources?
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 23, 2014 12:12 AM GMT
    ^^

    I agree that small scale solar is good for residential and some commercial use. I don't agree with the subsidies or large scale solar
  • OutdoorAdvent...

    Posts: 361

    Apr 23, 2014 12:40 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidno offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)

    = Ignorance
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 23, 2014 12:50 AM GMT
    ^^

    there are currently 16,000 abandoned wind power generators in the US. Solar is good for small scale needs, but will never make a dent in real power needs.

    Fake feel good environmentalists fail to understand the consequences and limitations of these technologies. Just wait for the ecological damage caused by battery powered cars, you ain't seen nothin' yet
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Apr 23, 2014 1:45 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidno offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)

    You consider yourself an environmentalist but you're against renewable energy? That's like saying your room is clean when you've shoved dirty dishes under your bed. You might be fooling yourself but I smell a lie. You're not really an environmentalist.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Apr 23, 2014 1:46 AM GMT
    The Koch brothers are total sociopaths.
  • fitartistsf

    Posts: 638

    Apr 23, 2014 2:01 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidno offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)


    Then you will be glad to know, the state of Oklahoma, as well as a couple of other states, JUST passed a bill yesterday, to fine any household $100 or more for using solar power! Everyone in the state will be forced to use coal and fossil fuels to power their homes!!!
    God damned right-wing, conservative, republican, anti-conservation, anti-environmentalist fucktards!!!! Can you believe it, now we are being fined for using the sun!!!!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 23, 2014 2:04 AM GMT
    i think solar would work well in a high land desert climate, lots of sunshine and few cloudy days. Wind driven might work well in certain areas too.

    renewable energy will take some adjustments:
    most families would not take to living in a 500 sq-ft house. They would not want to drive a 900 lb car.


    nothing is for free:
    -manufacturing and recycle of components like Lithium Li-ion batteries are an issue, keep the process in Viet Nam and we should be fine.
    -as with anything that holds a lot of energy and the recharge process is basically software controlled; these batteries will catch in fire.


    could be done easy:
    i promised my husband i would NOT start another project but a home solar electric project would be fun. With the goal of going off the grid.
  • fitartistsf

    Posts: 638

    Apr 23, 2014 2:05 AM GMT
    tj85016 said^^

    there are currently 16,000 abandoned wind power generators in the US. Solar is good for small scale needs, but will never make a dent in real power needs.

    Fake feel good environmentalists fail to understand the consequences and limitations of these technologies. Just wait for the ecological damage caused by battery powered cars, you ain't seen nothin' yet



    FU!!!! ...and fossil and coal fuels haven't polluted the earth in your universe, either, I bet.... what an ass...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 23, 2014 2:11 AM GMT
    fitartistsf said


    Then you will be glad to know, the state of Oklahoma, as well as a couple of other states, JUST passed a bill yesterday, to fine any household $100 or more for using solar power! Everyone in the state will be forced to use coal and fossil fuels to power their homes!!!
    God damned right-wing, conservative, republican, anti-conservation, anti-environmentalist fucktards!!!! Can you believe it, now we are being fined for using the sun!!!!



    ENVIRONMENTALISTS WITH GUNS NEED TO MARCH ON THE OKLAHOMA GOVERNOR'S MANSION.
    The tactic works for the right.
  • OutdoorAdvent...

    Posts: 361

    Apr 23, 2014 2:11 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidno offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)

    I suggest you move to Oklahoma...
    http://on.msnbc.com/1eYoQeG
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 23, 2014 2:13 AM GMT
    HottJoe said
    tj85016 saidno offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)

    You consider yourself an environmentalist but you're against renewable energy? That's like saying your room is clean when you've shoved dirty dishes under your bed. You might be fooling yourself but I smell a lie. You're not really an environmentalist.


    dude I recycled steel and aluminum beer and soda cans when I was 12 and composted stuff in the back yard as a kid. I cleaned up rivers and ponds. I rarely drive a car and rollerblade and bike around New York and take the train.

    It's horrible backward states like Oklahoma fine people for using small scale solar because they want to protect power companies.

    But I also went to engineering school and realize large scale solar, wind wills and electric cars are a shame, they either have huge consequences (you so aptly ignore or have no clue about) or are vastly inefficient to make any dent in demand

  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 23, 2014 2:14 AM GMT
    OutdoorAdventurist said
    tj85016 saidno offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)

    I suggest you move to Oklahoma...
    http://on.msnbc.com/1eYoQeG


    who the hell would live in Oklahoma?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 23, 2014 2:20 AM GMT
    fitartistsf said ... and coal fuels haven't polluted the earth in your universe, either, I bet.... what an ass...


    why does every thread at realjock have to end in an argument or name calling.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Apr 23, 2014 2:21 AM GMT
    tj85016 said
    HottJoe said
    tj85016 saidno offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)

    You consider yourself an environmentalist but you're against renewable energy? That's like saying your room is clean when you've shoved dirty dishes under your bed. You might be fooling yourself but I smell a lie. You're not really an environmentalist.


    dude I recycled steel and aluminum beer and soda cans when I was 12 and composted stuff in the back yard as a kid. I cleaned up rivers and ponds. I rarely drive a car and rollerblade and bike around New York and take the train.

    It's horrible backward states like Oklahoma fine people for using small scale solar because they want to protect power companies.

    But I also went to engineering school and realize large scale solar, wind wills and electric cars are a shame, they either have huge consequences (you so aptly ignore or have no clue about) or are vastly inefficient to make any dent in demand


    I commend you for taking some individual responsibility, but supporting the Koch brothers is completely irresponsible. It's like you're adding a clean drop of water to puddle that is polluted and you support the ones polluting it.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 23, 2014 2:27 AM GMT
    pellaz said
    fitartistsf said ... and coal fuels haven't polluted the earth in your universe, either, I bet.... what an ass...


    why does every thread at realjock have to end in an argument or name calling.


    probably too much Cadmium Blue skin contact and inhaling lots of turpentine
  • metta

    Posts: 39090

    Apr 23, 2014 2:36 AM GMT
    Solar energy now same price as conventional power in Germany, Italy, Spain - report

    “In countries such as Italy and Germany, both at grid parity and with proper regulation, PV systems (photovoltaic system) for self-consumption represent a viable, cost-effective, and sustainable power generation alternative,”



    ...


    "Germany has blazed the trail for green energy in Europe after deciding to decommission all of its nuclear power plants, following the Fukushima nuclear catastrophe in Japan 2011. Back in 2012 Germany’s solar power plants produced a record 22 gigawatts of power, meeting around 50 percent of the nation’s power quota.

    "Never before anywhere has a country produced as much photovoltaic electricity. Germany came close to the 20 gigawatt (GW) mark a few times in recent weeks. But this was the first time we made it over," Norbert Allnoch told Reuters news agency.

    The German government has come in the firing line for abandoning nuclear energy because it has had to open more coal plants to compensate for the energy shortfall. At present, energy generated from renewable sources accounts for about 25 percent of the German power grid, up from 7 percent in 2000. The German government has plans to increase this figure to 40-45 percent by the year 2025."

    http://rt.com/news/price-solar-energy-retail-033/


    I don't think that Germany is one of the most sunny countries.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 23, 2014 2:45 AM GMT
    ^^

    wow cool, I really hope small scale solar steams ahead - this will be a bigger fight than water rights in California and Idaho.

    There's no better way to screw the system than to generate your own electricity (and the Koch's and governments know it)
  • camfer

    Posts: 891

    Apr 23, 2014 2:53 AM GMT
    This youtube video of a lecture at Stanford entitled Solar & Clean Energy Myths should be of interest to anyone who has an opinion about solar energy. I will posit that it will really bring up the knowledge level for many who have posted in this thread. 38 minutes run time.

    This video is from Tony Seba's class at Stanford 'Clean Energy - Market & Investment Opportunities.'

    The reality is that in 2010 a single concentrated solar project (CSP) in the Mojave desert generated more power than all the photovoltaic panels in the US combined.

    Without subsidies, a CSP 1-megawatt project without any subsidies generates power at 8.1 cents per kilowatt hour. The payback on construction costs is five years, after which you are generating power for simply operational costs.

    With the right financing in New Jersey happening right now, small scale urban solar is currently running 3 to 4 cents a kilowatt. New Jersey is not known for having a lot of sun. Check your bill. What are you paying for electricity?

    In Hawaii, solar is 1/3 the cost of grid power. Hawaii has the highest price for grid power in the nation.

    Solar costs have dropped 90% in the last 10 years, and they are still dropping.

    Solar today is already cheaper than nuclear power.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs6mGLgL5go
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Apr 23, 2014 3:07 AM GMT
    tj85016 said^^

    wow cool, I really hope small scale solar steams ahead - this will be a bigger fight than water rights in California and Idaho.

    There's no better way to screw the system than to generate your own electricity (and the Koch's and governments know it)

    This is the crux of the matter. Renewable energy is inherently decentralizing, and anti-hirerachical. It's not merely a matter of money but the power and influence money buys.

    Not being an engineer, I can't speak to tj's analysis of their large-scale viability. What I do know, however, is that our energy infrastructure has not diversified significantly over the course of my lifetime and the reason, I believe, has more to do with hegemony than technological limitations.
  • camfer

    Posts: 891

    Apr 23, 2014 3:16 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    OutdoorAdventurist said
    tj85016 saidno offense to other environmentalists here (I consider myself one), but solar and wind is a waste of time and resources other than to power a couple hundred houses (usually by using subsidies)


    = Ignorance



    What is he "ignorant" about? What is factually wrong in what he stated?


    Well, in 2011, 69% of all new power generation capacity in Europe was solar and wind.

    Since the 1980s in the desert in California, there has been enough solar electric generation to power half of San Francisco 24/7.

    So his statement is 100% factually incorrect.

    By 2015, unsubsidized solar will be cheaper than grid power for 2/3 of the US.

    So "Couple of hundred houses" is an absurd and ignorant statement.

    Watch the video I posted earlier.
  • camfer

    Posts: 891

    Apr 23, 2014 3:29 AM GMT
    MikeW said
    tj85016 said^^

    wow cool, I really hope small scale solar steams ahead - this will be a bigger fight than water rights in California and Idaho.

    There's no better way to screw the system than to generate your own electricity (and the Koch's and governments know it)

    This is the crux of the matter. Renewable energy is inherently decentralizing, and anti-hirerachical. It's not merely a matter of money but the power and influence money buys.

    Not being an engineer, I can't speak to tj's analysis of their large-scale viability. What I do know, however, is that our energy infrastructure has not diversified significantly over the course of my lifetime and the reason, I believe, has more to do with hegemony than technological limitations.


    Well, it's very possible that renewable energy is decentralizing for some, but not necessarily for all. For example if you're going to power New York City with renewables, you need large scale projects. Solarcity has a $5 billion dollar market cap and builds solar installations for residential, commercial, and governmental entities. Its revenue growth is nearly 3 times the industry average. It's possible for the Koch brothers to make money off renewables if they choose to. [I am in no way recommending anyone buy SCTY, just an example.]
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 23, 2014 4:40 AM GMT
    put it this way . . I know for a fact the US developed internal combustion engine CARBURETORS for gas powered prop planes during WW2, that would get the equivalent of 80-90 miles per gallon in an average car.

    All the carbs were destroyed