Sigh... here we go.
iguanaSF saidScuba, with all due respect, you need to get out some more and do a little learning before you get so worried about what hurts or helps gay rights. I recommend this thing called Wikipedia. I think it will chill you out a bit. Also, travel broadens the mind.Fair enough. But asking questions is a way to get educated. Also, I'd rather hear from you guys than go to a site like Wikipedia--which i have come to distrust.
[quote]You're a virgin who's JUST heard about Folsom. A fair that has been going on for 24 years. And you're freaked out that the right wing zealots might "use it" against us? It's freakin 24 years old.[/quote]Once again, I am ignorant on this subject. I just heard of Folsom TODAY. It did not make since to me... knowing the religious right has taken advantage of it.
[quote]I'll quote a few other things from your posts that aren't going to win you any nominations for leading the gay rights movement, or any movement, for that matter:
1.) "Folsom Street Fair--something a have never heard about until today."
2.) "shocked that there was public nudity"
3.) "I'm an ignorant 'gay Puritan'"
4.) "I feel sick to my stomach"
5.) "why can't it be held indoors someplace"
6.) "how is it legal for men and women to walk around naked"
7.) "Are we asking society to tolerate too much too soon"
8.) "is society ready for this?"
9. )"where I'm from, if someone walked in the streets naked (at a fair or not), 10.) s/he would be arrested"[/quote]I'll write some explainations, but first, I never asked or seeked-out a leadership position for the gay community. That is not what I wish to do with my life as it would take up a lot of time for my other life goals.
1.) From what others have said, how does not hearing about an adult BDSM fair in SF disqualify me from becoming an influencial gay rights leader?
2.) Not sure if you looked at my profile, but I am a Mainer... almost the farther place from SF you can be while still a part of the USA. How would I have any knowledge concerning this fair? Especially since I have only been out of the closet for 3 years, and have concerned myself mostly with the politics of the gay rights agenda and the religios right.
3.) I'm ignorant--and have been called a gay Puritan. Mostly because things are new to me. I have a fairly progressive mind, yet some things still suprise me and may take time for me to adjust to new social experiences. You have faulted me for this. Yet I am not perfect, and came to this to learn more in a comfortable setting. However, i feel like I am being lectured by you because of my different worldview.
4.) I feel sick to my stomach because I know the force behind the religious right. I also know I wish to be treated as an equal to str8 people. I felt sick becuase the words of the religious right HURT ME A LOT... personally. My worldview is always evolving... please do not mock me or lecture me becuase i am not as educated as you concerning the gay community.
5.) 6.) 9.) 10.) I have no problem with the nude beaches you brought up becuase they are isolated or well labeled... for the most part. I guess it is hard for me to understand why they would have it outside when it could possible held indoors? Maybe the fair is too big for the indoors? Remember, where i am from, nudity is a crime. I never knew it was acceptable in SF.
7.) This is the big question: Is society ready for public nudity? We have social norms and it is always good to push them--that is how change comes about. What I ask is are we pushing too much too fast for society to accept? If we are going to fast, will it backfire? I mean are there other Fairs like Folsom around the counrty? Or are they just in SF?
[quote]While this kind of puritanical provincialism is certainly representative of a chunk of the country, and you have every right to hold these feelings, you need to check yourself when you start projecting your fears onto others who don't share your views. Some of us have been to Europe and South America where, horror of horrors, it's common to go to the beach naked, there are naked people on television, and in general, people are more afraid of guns and bombs then a bit of tit and ass. Here in America, of course, we love our guns and bombs, but are deathly afraid of tits and ass.[/quote]I agree actually
[quote]One reason San Francisco is such a popular tourist destination for both US and non-US citizens, is that it's an island of European sensibility, from both it's pro-pedestrian, anti-car walkability, its fierce acceptance of all types of lifestyles, and its refusal to be afraid of the human body. As such, it is absolutely out of place is this uptight country.
But should San Francisco (and it's scary "San Francisco Values") go back into the closet and become just like the rest of the uptight puritanical car-loving, obese, gun-loving, and endlessly "freaked out by everything" country, just because the rest of the country is "freaked out" by us? I'll answer that with some questions:
Should black folks in the 60's have just sat at the back of the bus because white people were "freaked out" when they just took any available seat?
Should women have just stayed at home in the 20's when everyone was "freaked out" that they might vote?
Should Harvey Milk should have stayed in the closet in the 70's instead of running for San Francisco Supervisor as the first openly gay man to achieve public office in the United States because people were "freaked out"?[/quote]If the people of SF want to live a certain way... that's fine. Just realize that a large majority will oppose events like the fair.
Now, your questions/examples do not work here according to me a t least. You gave examples of civil rights in your questions: being able to vote, run for public office, sit where you wish on a bus (desegregate the South) However, having an adult BDSM fair with public nudity--I think--would be a privilege... not necessarily a civil right. I am not a lawyer though.
[quote]You sir, can live a better life today because of all these people that fought against everyone who was "freaked out" by who they were. You sir, in your ignorance, are unaware that the people who put on Folsom are paving the way for YOU to be open and out about who you are wherever you are. You should thank your lucky fucking stars for San Francisco, Harvey Milk, and the fucking Folsom Street Fair because they are all fighting YOUR battles.
This is why people like you cause flame wars because for decades, conservative people who are freaked out by things will ALWAYS choose the path that makes everyone feel comfortable. And that path leads to the back of the bus, to being barefoot and pregnant, and to the closet.
Oh, and by the way, if you read your Wikipedia entry on Folsom, you'll see that attendance approaches half a million people. If you can find a nice secret indoor venue for that kind of crowd, where we can all hide from the people who are "freaked out" by us, let me know.
[/quote]Ouch Ouch and Ouch. Seriously, you really know how to make a guy understand where you are coming from. Bash me more why don't you... just because I grew up in a different part of the counrty. You act as though I am asking odd and stupid questions--I would think anyone would ask these questions... especially those who wish to progress equal rights for gays. You are more eager to say "fuck off" to the religious right. Which is admirable.