Bike Share’s Rough Ride in NYC

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 24, 2014 3:36 PM GMT
    NYT: IT’S been a year since Citi Bike started in New York City, and the program has been a tremendous success, with more than 100,000 annual members and over seven million trips to date. Or, if you prefer, in Citi Bike’s first year, the program has struggled financially and is in urgent need of tens of millions of dollars.

    Both are true, so take your pick.

    The story of bike share in New York City has been one of contradiction and antagonism, even before its inception:

    “$10 to ride a bike? That’s for rich people!”

    “A bike share station in front of my building? How is the doorman supposed to hail me a cab?”

    By the time the program was ready to roll, the calamitous prognostications came pell-mell. This town’s too tough for bike share! The streets would run red with the blood of hapless tourists and the helmetless! All 6,000 bikes would be stolen by America’s most industrious bike thieves!

    None of these predictions came to pass. In our egotistic frenzy, we had forgotten a few things, such as that the average person can ride a bike just fine, tourists aren’t as hapless as we think they are and bike thieves aren’t interested in stealing big, clunky bikes equipped with GPS trackers. We had assumed a kind of New York exceptionalism, when similar bike share programs were already running successfully in Paris, London and Washington.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/opinion/bike-shares-rough-ride.html?hpw&rref=opinion
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 24, 2014 8:02 PM GMT
    As a bus driver, I hate cyclists.
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 24, 2014 8:06 PM GMT
    "What I compare bike lanes to is swimming with the sharks. Sooner or later you're going to get bitten... Roads are built for buses, cars, and trucks, not for people on bikes. My heart bleeds for them when I hear someone gets killed, but it's their own fault at the end of the day."

    -Rob Ford, one of Canada's top municipal policy makers
  • dc415

    Posts: 255

    May 24, 2014 9:48 PM GMT
    Actually, the push for smooth paved roads came originally from bicyclists who wanted a better ride. So historically roads were actually built for bikes.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    May 25, 2014 2:58 AM GMT
    FitGwynedd said"What I compare bike lanes to is swimming with the sharks. Sooner or later you're going to get bitten... Roads are built for buses, cars, and trucks, not for people on bikes. My heart bleeds for them when I hear someone gets killed, but it's their own fault at the end of the day."

    -Rob Ford, one of Canada's top municipal policy makers


    Out of all the people you could have picked, you picked Rob Ford?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 25, 2014 3:02 AM GMT
    FitGwynedd said"What I compare bike lanes to is swimming with the sharks. Sooner or later you're going to get bitten... Roads are built for buses, cars, and trucks, not for people on bikes. My heart bleeds for them when I hear someone gets killed, but it's their own fault at the end of the day."

    -Rob Ford, one of Canada's top municipal policy makers


    Top municipal policy maker? icon_lol.gif

    You do know that Toronto has a bike share program in effect, right?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 25, 2014 6:42 AM GMT
    Seeing as how virtually no transportation mode completely pays for itself except walking and bicycling, I'm not sure why bike sharing is expected to be different.

    Before you go there, no, the gas tax doesn't come even close to paying for car infrastructure.
  • kew1

    Posts: 1595

    May 25, 2014 9:40 AM GMT
    FitGwynedd saidAs a bus driver, I hate cyclists.

    As a cyclist and car driver, I hate bus drivers. icon_smile.gif They indicate for ages but don't actually start to move until I'm right behind them. Or, as a cyclist, as I'm passing them.

    Not as bad as mini cab drivers though, nearly been run over three times on zebra crossings in the last 2 weeks by drivers overtaking stationary cars.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14335

    May 25, 2014 1:00 PM GMT
    YVRguy said
    FitGwynedd said"What I compare bike lanes to is swimming with the sharks. Sooner or later you're going to get bitten... Roads are built for buses, cars, and trucks, not for people on bikes. My heart bleeds for them when I hear someone gets killed, but it's their own fault at the end of the day."

    -Rob Ford, one of Canada's top municipal policy makers


    Top municipal policy maker? icon_lol.gif

    You do know that Toronto has a bike share program in effect, right?
    Roads are not just for cars, trucks, and buses. They are also for bikes. It is the fault of government in many cities and suburbs for not properly marking the roads for all road users including bikes. Also traffic laws need to be more strictly enforced and motorists who refuse to share the road with bikes should have their vehicles impounded for a year and pay a $1,000.00 fine. Bicyclists should also be compelled to follow all traffic laws as well. There are too many cyclists who think that they can do whatever they damned well please which is why many motorists are hostile towards cyclists.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 25, 2014 4:12 PM GMT
    ^^^ QFT

    (I'm too lazy to actually quote it though:winkicon_smile.gif
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 25, 2014 9:06 PM GMT
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd saidAs a bus driver, I hate cyclists.

    As a cyclist and car driver, I hate bus drivers. icon_smile.gif They indicate for ages but don't actually start to move until I'm right behind them. Or, as a cyclist, as I'm passing them.

    Not as bad as mini cab drivers though, nearly been run over three times on zebra crossings in the last 2 weeks by drivers overtaking stationary cars.


    Yeah because when a bus indicates it means to slow down and yield, not continue to creep up or drive alongside.
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 25, 2014 9:09 PM GMT
    dc415 saidActually, the push for smooth paved roads came originally from bicyclists who wanted a better ride. So historically roads were actually built for bikes.


    That's not true at all. The push for paved roads was from lobbyists in the auto, trucking, oil and asphalt industries.
  • dc415

    Posts: 255

    May 25, 2014 9:23 PM GMT
    FitGwynedd said
    dc415 saidActually, the push for smooth paved roads came originally from bicyclists who wanted a better ride. So historically roads were actually built for bikes.


    That's not true at all. The push for paved roads was from lobbyists in the auto, trucking, oil and asphalt industries.


    False.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Roads_Movement

    or

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/15/cyclists-paved-way-for-roads

    etc.
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 25, 2014 9:47 PM GMT
    dc415 said
    FitGwynedd said
    dc415 saidActually, the push for smooth paved roads came originally from bicyclists who wanted a better ride. So historically roads were actually built for bikes.


    That's not true at all. The push for paved roads was from lobbyists in the auto, trucking, oil and asphalt industries.


    False.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Roads_Movement

    or

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/15/cyclists-paved-way-for-roads

    etc.


    So you are saying that the 3900 mile Lincoln Highway was built in 1913 for bicycles, not automobiles? Get out of here, you are a joke.
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 25, 2014 9:52 PM GMT
    Furthermore, the Good Roads Movement was a failure. It was the Transcontinental Convoys of 1919 and 1920 organized by the Army and the Trucking Industry that raised public interest in paved roads, and it wasn't until after these convoys that investment in paved roads increased.
  • dc415

    Posts: 255

    May 25, 2014 11:53 PM GMT
    [quote]So you are saying that the 3900 mile Lincoln Highway was built in 1913 for bicycles, not automobiles? Get out of here, you are a joke.[/quote]

    I don't believe I said that, no. Also I don't see how an ad hominem attack will further our understanding of this topic.
  • kew1

    Posts: 1595

    May 26, 2014 8:04 AM GMT
    FitGwynedd said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd saidAs a bus driver, I hate cyclists.

    As a cyclist and car driver, I hate bus drivers. icon_smile.gif They indicate for ages but don't actually start to move until I'm right behind them. Or, as a cyclist, as I'm passing them.

    Not as bad as mini cab drivers though, nearly been run over three times on zebra crossings in the last 2 weeks by drivers overtaking stationary cars.


    Yeah because when a bus indicates it means to slow down and yield, not continue to creep up or drive alongside.

    London bus drivers either indicate for 30 seconds to people far away then just pull out after waiting for them to catch up with the bus or indicate for a couple of seconds then pull away. What's the rule about pulling away from a bus stop if you have to cross into the oncoming lane, forcing cars coming towards you to stop?
  • chadwick1985

    Posts: 391

    May 26, 2014 2:17 PM GMT
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd saidAs a bus driver, I hate cyclists.

    As a cyclist and car driver, I hate bus drivers. icon_smile.gif They indicate for ages but don't actually start to move until I'm right behind them. Or, as a cyclist, as I'm passing them.

    Not as bad as mini cab drivers though, nearly been run over three times on zebra crossings in the last 2 weeks by drivers overtaking stationary cars.


    Yeah because when a bus indicates it means to slow down and yield, not continue to creep up or drive alongside.

    London bus drivers either indicate for 30 seconds to people far away then just pull out after waiting for them to catch up with the bus or indicate for a couple of seconds then pull away. What's the rule about pulling away from a bus stop if you have to cross into the oncoming lane, forcing cars coming towards you to stop?



    Well here in the US a bus using its indicator that it wants to pull out is simply law. It does NOT give the bus the right to pull out infront of a car / bike or to force them over. When a bus is pulling out it is re entering the roadway and must yield to vehicles already on the roadway. In Arizona a bicycle is considered a vehicle and must abide by the same laws a car does.
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 26, 2014 2:42 PM GMT
    chadwick1985 said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd saidAs a bus driver, I hate cyclists.

    As a cyclist and car driver, I hate bus drivers. icon_smile.gif They indicate for ages but don't actually start to move until I'm right behind them. Or, as a cyclist, as I'm passing them.

    Not as bad as mini cab drivers though, nearly been run over three times on zebra crossings in the last 2 weeks by drivers overtaking stationary cars.


    Yeah because when a bus indicates it means to slow down and yield, not continue to creep up or drive alongside.

    London bus drivers either indicate for 30 seconds to people far away then just pull out after waiting for them to catch up with the bus or indicate for a couple of seconds then pull away. What's the rule about pulling away from a bus stop if you have to cross into the oncoming lane, forcing cars coming towards you to stop?



    Well here in the US a bus using its indicator that it wants to pull out is simply law. It does NOT give the bus the right to pull out infront of a car / bike or to force them over. When a bus is pulling out it is re entering the roadway and must yield to vehicles already on the roadway. In Arizona a bicycle is considered a vehicle and must abide by the same laws a car does.


    That isn't true. DEPENDING ON THE STATE, buses do have priority over vehicles already in the roadway. I can't speak for Arizona because I don't operate there.
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 26, 2014 2:45 PM GMT
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd saidAs a bus driver, I hate cyclists.

    As a cyclist and car driver, I hate bus drivers. icon_smile.gif They indicate for ages but don't actually start to move until I'm right behind them. Or, as a cyclist, as I'm passing them.

    Not as bad as mini cab drivers though, nearly been run over three times on zebra crossings in the last 2 weeks by drivers overtaking stationary cars.


    Yeah because when a bus indicates it means to slow down and yield, not continue to creep up or drive alongside.

    London bus drivers either indicate for 30 seconds to people far away then just pull out after waiting for them to catch up with the bus or indicate for a couple of seconds then pull away. What's the rule about pulling away from a bus stop if you have to cross into the oncoming lane, forcing cars coming towards you to stop?


    That's London. Given how irritating people in London are the bus drivers probably just don't give a fuck. And if you wait for a break in traffic you'll never be able to keep to schedule, and thanks to privatization punctuality trumps safety. Quit your whining.
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 26, 2014 2:48 PM GMT
    chadwick1985 said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd saidAs a bus driver, I hate cyclists.

    As a cyclist and car driver, I hate bus drivers. icon_smile.gif They indicate for ages but don't actually start to move until I'm right behind them. Or, as a cyclist, as I'm passing them.

    Not as bad as mini cab drivers though, nearly been run over three times on zebra crossings in the last 2 weeks by drivers overtaking stationary cars.


    Yeah because when a bus indicates it means to slow down and yield, not continue to creep up or drive alongside.

    London bus drivers either indicate for 30 seconds to people far away then just pull out after waiting for them to catch up with the bus or indicate for a couple of seconds then pull away. What's the rule about pulling away from a bus stop if you have to cross into the oncoming lane, forcing cars coming towards you to stop?



    Well here in the US a bus using its indicator that it wants to pull out is simply law. It does NOT give the bus the right to pull out infront of a car / bike or to force them over. When a bus is pulling out it is re entering the roadway and must yield to vehicles already on the roadway. In Arizona a bicycle is considered a vehicle and must abide by the same laws a car does.


    SMC 11.58.275 Right-of-way of transit vehicles.

    A. The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a transit vehicle traveling in the same direction that has signaled and is re-entering the traffic flow.

    B. This section shall not operate to relieve the driver of a transit vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the street or alley.

    C. For purposes of this section, “transit vehicle” means a motor vehicle, street car, train, or trolley which is owned or operated by a city, county, county transportation authority, a public benefit area, or the state, and which is used to carry passengers on a regular schedule. (RCW 46.04.355;69.50.435(5), (6)).

  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 26, 2014 2:50 PM GMT
    chadwick1985 said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd said
    kew1 said
    FitGwynedd saidAs a bus driver, I hate cyclists.

    As a cyclist and car driver, I hate bus drivers. icon_smile.gif They indicate for ages but don't actually start to move until I'm right behind them. Or, as a cyclist, as I'm passing them.

    Not as bad as mini cab drivers though, nearly been run over three times on zebra crossings in the last 2 weeks by drivers overtaking stationary cars.


    Yeah because when a bus indicates it means to slow down and yield, not continue to creep up or drive alongside.

    London bus drivers either indicate for 30 seconds to people far away then just pull out after waiting for them to catch up with the bus or indicate for a couple of seconds then pull away. What's the rule about pulling away from a bus stop if you have to cross into the oncoming lane, forcing cars coming towards you to stop?



    Well here in the US a bus using its indicator that it wants to pull out is simply law. It does NOT give the bus the right to pull out infront of a car / bike or to force them over. When a bus is pulling out it is re entering the roadway and must yield to vehicles already on the roadway. In Arizona a bicycle is considered a vehicle and must abide by the same laws a car does.


    § 811.167¹
    Failure to yield right of way to transit bus
    • rules
    • penalty
    (1) A person commits the offense of failure to yield the right of way to a transit bus entering traffic if the person does not yield the right of way to a transit bus when:
    (a) A yield sign as described in subsection (2) of this section is displayed on the back of the transit bus;
    (b) The person is operating a vehicle that is overtaking the transit bus from the rear of the transit bus; and
    (c) The transit bus, after stopping to receive or discharge passengers, is signaling an intention to enter the traffic lane occupied by the person.
    (2) The yield sign referred to in subsection (1)(a) of this section shall warn a person operating a motor vehicle approaching the rear of a transit bus that the person must yield when the transit bus is entering traffic. The yield sign shall be illuminated by a flashing light when the bus is signaling an intention to enter a traffic lane after stopping to receive or discharge passengers. The Oregon Transportation Commission shall adopt by rule the message on the yield sign, specifications for the size, shape, color, lettering and illumination of the sign and specifications for the placement of the sign on a transit bus.
    (3) This section does not relieve a driver of a transit bus from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the roadway.
    (4) As used in this section, transit bus means a commercial bus operated by a city, a mass transit district established under ORS 267.010 (Definitions for ORS 267.010 to 267.390) to 267.390 (Acceptance of funds from United States) or a transportation district established under ORS 267.510 (Definitions for ORS 267.510 to 267.650) to 267.650 (Finance elections).
    (5) The offense described in this section, failure to yield the right of way to a transit bus entering traffic, is a Class D traffic violation. [1997 c.509 §2]
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 26, 2014 4:27 PM GMT
    dc415 said[quote]So you are saying that the 3900 mile Lincoln Highway was built in 1913 for bicycles, not automobiles? Get out of here, you are a joke.

    I don't believe I said that, no. Also I don't see how an ad hominem attack will further our understanding of this topic.[/quote]

    [I didn't try to repair your broken quotes] Actually there are accurate elements in the statements that you both are making. There's a distinction between city streets and cross-country roads.

    Beginning in the late 1870s bicycles were one motivation for making city streets smoother, and less ragged. Bicycles were the first vehicles to have the newly-invented pneumatic tires, which were fragile and more prone to puncture than today's tires. And of course the ride over rough roads could be pounding.

    Another item of interest to this site is that bicycles, with their small saddles, were the inspiration for the invention of the athletic supporter (jockstrap) to prevent discomfort to men while riding. It wasn't until later that the usefulness of the jock for other sports activities was recognized. The original jock, still manufactured to this day in the US with modern updates, has always been named "BIKE" for 140 years, its brand logo for decades a spoked bike wheel.

    But back to roads. There was indeed a US Army cross-country truck convoy right after WWI. Led by none other than Major Dwight Eisenhower. Future Allied Supreme Commander during WWII, US President in the 1950s, and after whom our current Interstate highway system is named.

    Purposes for the convoy were to publicize and get public support for funding the mechanization of the Army following the war. And also to overcome some internal Army opposition to switching to modern motorized forces.

    All of the Army's Generals had begun their careers relying solely upon horses & mules for battlefield transportation. The internal combustion engine was still revolutionary for combat use, and this convoy was a demonstration of the new capabilities, as well as a way to test equipment to the maximum, and develop techniques for maintenance and sustainability.

    It's believed Eisenhower's experience in 1919 on that convoy, when roads often simply ran out, and what he later saw of the superb German Autobahns during WWII, inspired him to give his endorsement to efforts at building an integrated high-speed US highway network.
  • peterstrong

    Posts: 989

    May 27, 2014 2:07 PM GMT
    thats very neat history Art D - thanks for posting that / enjoyed reading it - could also be added to it though that GM and other entities bought up stock in street cars and then dismantled the rails in lots of major cities around the same time late 1940's & into 1950's. They wanted to sell buses, cars, and tires. Other biz interests wanted to sell oil, so trains & street cars were too oil energy efficient for their profit motives icon_twisted.gif

    so now here we are with global climate change and all its problems icon_idea.gif


  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 27, 2014 2:13 PM GMT
    peterstrong said thats very neat history Art D - thanks for posting that / enjoyed reading it - could also be added to it though that GM and other entities bought up stock in street cars and then dismantled the rails in lots of major cities around the same time late 1940's & into 1950's. They wanted to sell buses, cars, and tires. Other biz interests wanted to sell oil, so trains & street cars were too oil energy efficient for their profit motives icon_twisted.gif

    so now here we are with global climate change and all its problems icon_idea.gif




    Thats the gist of it