Struggling- can anyone help me out?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 07, 2009 4:00 AM GMT
    I'm writing this because I've been very frusterated and confused lately. Accepting that I was gay (or at least that I liked men) was never that difficult. I've told my immediate family and they couldn't care less. I realize how lucky I am for this and I am extremely thankful (I'm 18 and living at home). However, lately I feel like I'm being tormented. I've never thought of myself as effeminate and I hate the thought of it. I have no problem with being gay, though- just effeminate behaviour (I'm not saying this is right, but just how I feel). All I can think about lately is whether I'm some swishy gay guy or if I act masculine. I've never been a real macho guy (I don't take myself that seriously) but I've always played sports and had mostly guy friends. I figured that any lack of masculinity was probably just how I was raised as I have a straight older brother who doesn't seem any tougher than me. Still I can't stop thinking about gays and effeminant behaviour. I find myself constantly questioning everything I do; is it effeminate? My brother and I discussed this and decided "gay men are no more feminine than straight men". He mentioned how earlier in different civilizations, homosexuality wasn't nearly as taboo and that many important men were gay (or bisexual). Alexander the great, Da Vinci, James Dean etc...
    How can this be true since it seems like every swishy guy I meet is gay? Is it just a cultural thing? Is it an act? Or are gay men chemically different than straight men and are naturally more effeminate?

    Does anyone know of any studies done that may support what I hope to be true?
    Has anyone else experienced what I'm going through and if so, how did you deal with it?

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    Jan 07, 2009 4:18 AM GMT
    nada90 said
    How can this be true since it seems like every swishy guy I meet is gay?


    Effeminate actions/tendencies can help you to determine whether or not someone is gay (but not always). You aren't really looking at the other side of the same coin though; how many non-effeminate men have you met and just assumed were straight?

    Just because effeminate gay men are easier to pick out of a crowd than masculine gay men does not mean that all gay men are effeminate.
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    Jan 07, 2009 4:21 AM GMT
    Hey, look. I think that what you are going through right now is temporary.

    And, it's natural to be questioning your level of masculinity...because, in our society, so many folks don't value femininity among men OR women.
    Gay men question each other and themselves, especially during the periods right before or immediately after coming out.

    Don't be so hard on yourself. Basically, what I'm saying is to focus on something else. Right now, you probably can't see your own level of masculinity in an objective way. Meanwhile, by simply phrasing the question, "Am I masculine enough?" to other people, this questioning will cause them to pause, and perhaps identify things in you that are not the pinnacles of hyper-masculinity...it's a wasteful use of your time.

    To answer one of your questions - I know Puh-LENTY of effeminate guys that are 100% bona fide heterosexual.

    Let's talk about something else, shall we?

    Hang in there, bro!
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    Jan 07, 2009 4:25 AM GMT
    I guess you have to realise, homosexuality is just as diverse as heterosexuality. Not all gay guys are effeminate it's just a stereotype unfortunately.

    Are you worried you might be effeminate? Try recording your voice and playing it back. How does it sound? Maybe look at some videos of yourself and compare that to how your brother might act.

    At the end of the day don't worry about it and be yourself. I know that after a few drinks I get a bit camp and if anything it's probably cause I'm in a much more relaxed state. Is that who I am? Dunno and don't care. I just appreciate the fact that my friends accept me as I am sober or drunk icon_smile.gif

    As for your first question, well I don't know any studies per se but have a look at wikipedia for what it's worth and it has some links out to research. For your second question, yeah I guess I kind of went through it and I came out much later in life than yourself, but again, I don't encounter any conflict interpersonal or intrapersonal so it doesn't exactly bother me.


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    Jan 07, 2009 4:28 AM GMT
    Straight men are under the same pressures we are to conform. Men have to prove their virility by sleeping with lots of women. Men have to prove they are masculine by being more macho than the guy next to them. Gay men break that norm. By rejecting heterosexuality, we reject all the gender baggage that goes with it. We have the freedom to act butch if we want or be as nelly as we please. For every swishy gay man you see there is a straight man who wishes he was in high heels.

    Remember, transvestites are straight men who like to dress as ladies. Shemale porn is almost exclusively marketed to straight male. And have you seen all the cock in straight porn?

    Just relax. You are you. And that is an awesome person to be.
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    Jan 07, 2009 4:40 AM GMT
    Oh, and as for your request for a study.

    Take a look at this mug

    Oscar_Wilde_10.jpg

    That is a photo of Oscar Wilde when he was at the start of his career, when he was rich, famous, and universally adored. Years later he would be sentenced to several years imprisonment with hard labor for having sex with another man. When people who knew Oscar heard the charges they were outraged, astonished! Surly, Oscar was no sodomite. A dandy, yes. But no homosexual.

    If people, one hundred years ago, could wear fur, have their hair like that, be as effeminate as a rose, and say charming things like "Football is all very well as a game for rough girls, but it is hardly suitable for delicate boys." then our notions of masculinity/femininity have radically changed. In fact, there is some research out there that shows heterosexuality was defined only after Wilde had defined homosexuality in the popular imagination.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Jan 07, 2009 4:44 AM GMT
    Of course no one ever thought Rock Hudson was queer, he was a man's man:


    You can start by discarding any notion of "effeminate" or "masculine" behavior, otherwise you might end up being a caricature of yourself, inhibiting your emotional growth.
    Being butch or queeny has nothing to do with being a man. I don't mean this to be sexist (as if any women will read this) but I'm referring to that innate quality of simply being male.
  • EricLA

    Posts: 3461

    Jan 07, 2009 5:27 AM GMT
    Sounds like you're still judging yourself, that you still think that being gay is bad (specifically effeminate behavior). I've been out for almost 20 years now (yikes, when did THAT happen), and there are still things I feel like I'm dealing with (self-esteem issues come up from time-to-time). It's really internalized homophobia. You really need to accept you for who you are. I'm sure if you look around, you'll see a bunch of effeminate-acting straight men. Do you judge them, or are you just judging yourself -- holding yourself to an impossible standard? I'd read up on dealing with internalized homophobia, and maybe even see a therapist if you find yourself really obsessing about it.
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    Jan 07, 2009 6:00 AM GMT
    nada90 said... it seems like every swishy guy I meet is gay? Is it just a cultural thing? Is it an act?

    Many swishy men prolly are gay, but is every gay man swishy? Not at all.

    As I've said here before, I'm a retired US Army Colonel, Military Police Corps. I'm also gay. I've done challenging things that would make a lot of "macho" straight men faint. If you judge masculine by deeds and less by posing, I'll challenge any straight man to equal me.

    You can be a gay man and also be very masculine. In fact, most of the gay men I know are masculine, not femmy at all. The swishy guys get all the press and attention, but in truth they're in the minority. I love them dearly, and sometimes camp it up with them for laughs, but the fact is they aren't the essence of being gay. You gotta abandon those stereotypes, about gays and about yourself.

    Being gay is about sexual attraction; it isn't about behavior. Not understanding that reality is the error I made for a good part of my own life. Being masculine, I assumed it prevented me from being gay. Once I realized that masculine men could also be gay, my denial mechanism crumbled, and I quickly came out.

    You don't have a problem at all, my friend, except one of perception and stereotyping. Be gay and be masculine; there is no conflict whatsoever.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 07, 2009 6:22 AM GMT
    just be you and you'll be fine.

    why do you care about these labels ppl apply them and they only divide our little gay subculture.
  • caliboy

    Posts: 81

    Jan 07, 2009 6:23 AM GMT
    By no means can anyone determine if one is gay by actions and manerisms alone. I'm masuline, but I have freinds that are effeminate which are both gay and straight. I would say that no matter how you are or what you think, just be confortable with your self from within. I have been suprized to learn just who might be gay icon_wink.gif
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    Jan 07, 2009 8:44 AM GMT
    Be you and you'll find happiness. It dosn't matter how you act, if you inhibit and repress yourself the build up will become toxic. Grow into the person you were meant to become and you'll find someone who loves you for you.

    Just as you question your behavior so do your straight peers, maybe even more so. Some straight guys stigmatize being gay so horribly that the only way they can express the "gay" aspects of themselves is in secret or not at all. Remember that the super macho guy who puts on the biggest show has the most to prove, not to anyone else, but to himself. Don't imprison yourself.
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    Jan 07, 2009 12:23 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidStraight men are under the same pressures we are to conform. Men have to prove their virility by sleeping with lots of women. Men have to prove they are masculine by being more macho than the guy next to them. Gay men break that norm. By rejecting heterosexuality, we reject all the gender baggage that goes with it. We have the freedom to act butch if we want or be as nelly as we please. For every swishy gay man you see there is a straight man who wishes he was in high heels.

    Remember, transvestites are straight men who like to dress as ladies. Shemale porn is almost exclusively marketed to straight male. And have you seen all the cock in straight porn?

    Just relax. You are you. And that is an awesome person to be.


    This really helps. Thank you.
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    Jan 07, 2009 12:32 PM GMT
    I really appreciate all the feedback. You guys have brought up some really good points. Ultimately I think I just need to relax and be myself (confident too), it's just that I have the tendancy to 1) care what people think of me and 2) think too much sometimes. Maybe I've just been psycho analyzing myself so much that I'm magnifying every behaviour that isn't conventionally masculine. I've told one of my best mates and he was fine with it so hopefully most of my friends will be.
    Jesus Christ- sometimes I just get tired of thinking about sexuality... it seems like such a little deal. Maybe I'll just do other things for a while like play video games etc..

    Again, thank you guys for the help. I know this same situation probably comes up a lot and you're tired of hearing about it.

  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Jan 07, 2009 3:42 PM GMT
    I can tell you about my best friend at work. This guy are really effiminate. He talk kinda girlish, he have beautiful voice, winning talentime contest, he hang around girl, a very gentle and non violence person. I on the other hand use to be in the army, enjoy kickbocking, muay thai, a biker who rode big muscle motorbike, wear black leather, a marathoner , adventure lover and prefer the company of men. Who will ever thought it was I who is a cocksucker, gay , bottom men, and a men chaser. He as far as I know is straight and married with a little baby boy.

    You can never guess gay guys. Some are so masculine , you will be shock to find out the truth. Just be yourself, dont worried what others think.
  • xKorix

    Posts: 607

    Jan 07, 2009 4:24 PM GMT
    Cool That's awesome you're thinking about this.

    I find that once I stopped believing in what society expects a man to be...I realized there are unlimited possibilities of what a man could be.

    I also stopped believing that for "feminine traits" (they're only traits, people decide whether their masculine or feminine, it's not universal) only women could have them, and if a male had them, he was less of a man.

    Hey haha I don't mind feeling all my feelings (not just anger) and I'm soo down with cuddling and intimacy.
  • JayneCobb

    Posts: 709

    Jan 07, 2009 4:27 PM GMT
    All gays are flaming queens, sorry to burst your bubble. You will be too one day, just wait. icon_rolleyes.gificon_wink.gif
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    Jan 07, 2009 5:10 PM GMT
    Even if you were straight, you still need and will have time to grow in to who you are! You're still young and have lots of exploring to do and many experiences to come your way, so just relax and let them happen and you'll get a better and stronger sense of self as you grow and mature.....
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    Jan 08, 2009 1:20 AM GMT
    Different cultures have different expectations and buttons. In the end who cares? Just relax, be confident, be real. Being real is more masculine than some stupid stereotype.
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    Jan 09, 2009 12:57 AM GMT
    There's an episode of 30 Rock where Ms Lemon has here school reunion. In it there is a"friend" of hers she was trying to convince to come out and yet here he is at the school reunion flamboyant as a queen with his wife and 2 kids!

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    Jan 09, 2009 4:56 AM GMT
    sydney_cider saidThere's an episode of 30 Rock where Ms Lemon has here school reunion. In it there is a"friend" of hers she was trying to convince to come out and yet here he is at the school reunion flamboyant as a queen with his wife and 2 kids!



    Haha yes I think I have seen this one. One thing I notice thought is that it seems like all the average acting gay characters on tv are straight in real life. That's probably because heteros make up the majority.


    Again thanks for all the encouragement guys
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    Jan 09, 2009 5:10 AM GMT
    Gay guys who're effeminate are either stuck in a mentality dictating "I'm gay and all gay guys are effeminate and therefore I should be effeminate as well" or hang out with other gay guys who're effeminate and they model off that. Either way it's the same thing, LOL!
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    Jan 09, 2009 5:20 AM GMT
    Not all gays are fairies.

    Not all fairies are gays, although, most are.

    Some gays are studs, and not fairies, but very macho MEN.

    Some mega-fairies look like mega-studs, until they open their mouth and a purse falls out.

    Some gays are ultra-cool Real Jocks, and some are just wanna' be's.

    We have to like who we are, whatever the case, or live in a world of misery of our own making.

    If you're a fairy, that's o.k. If you're not a fairy, that's o.k. You are under no obligation to be a fairy if you're gay.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 09, 2009 5:25 AM GMT
    QUOTE Gay guys who're effeminate are either stuck in a mentality dictating "I'm gay and all gay guys are effeminate and therefore I should be effeminate as well" or hang out with other gay guys who're effeminate and they model off that. Either way it's the same thing, LOL!


    I actually watched someone who, although not overly masculine (just around average-ish, whatever that may mean), began to 'copy' the stereotypical gay behavior as he came out and began to hang out more and more with the stereotypical type gays. I know this wasn't how he really was, but he did become that way. So I would say I agree with the above to a good degree.

    However, I also knew someone in highschool who was extremely effeminite, just as much if not more than the stereotypical gay man, but had no gay connections or social groups and constantly said he was straight if asked, so to him surely it was natural, since he didn't want the gay identity at least at the time.

    So these lead me to believe that in some cases it's acting to conform, and in others it's natural. Since I only experienced just one example of each, I can't quite judge how prevelant each of these is, however.