Shootings in Seattle & Gun control

  • tazzari

    Posts: 2937

    Jun 08, 2014 12:58 AM GMT
    We've had several shootings in Seattle in the last few days, including the one at PLU. All the usual posters are having a field day on the Seattle Times website. As far as I can see, very few, if any, are calling for a ban on guns, but quite a few are calling for better control of who gets guns and keeping them out of the hands of lunatics.

    These sensible thoughts are always drowned out by the folks who equate any control of guns with banning them, and there is the usual chorus of "guns don't kill people, people kill people," and "should be ban all knives, too?" and "it's the fault of the mental health system" or "it's because the police weren't there."

    We need to remember that the mental health system, like the police, is overburdened and under-funded. Want better mental health? Fund it. Want better/more police? Fund them. And that, folks, means being willing to take on the necessary tax burden inherent in being part of the community.

    How do we get sensible discussion of this problem? How do we get people to come up with useful suggestions? How to we get Americans to remember that we are community, and that community functions only when we all come to the table to work out mutually satisfactory solutions - which folks, means some give and take.

    Is it even possible in the US today?

  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Jun 08, 2014 1:14 AM GMT
    tazzari saidIs it even possible in the US today?
    I don't know if it ever was but it certainly isn't now.
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    Jun 08, 2014 1:26 AM GMT
    MikeW said
    tazzari saidIs it even possible in the US today?
    I don't know if it ever was but it certainly isn't now.

    Agreed
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    Jun 08, 2014 1:39 AM GMT
    tazzari said... These sensible thoughts are always drowned out by the folks who equate any control of guns with banning them, ...
    There's probably more truth to that than you realize. After all, the whole idea behind gun control is banning them from lunatics. icon_wink.gif
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    Jun 08, 2014 2:21 AM GMT
    We're so deep in a hole, there's nothing we can do about gun control at this point. States like MD, CT, and NJ have strict gun laws, yet people are buying unregistered guns all over the inner cities, shooting up who ever they please.

    I mean just look at the British police force, they aren't even armed. When the US has millions of armed cops, wtf do you think was going to happen?
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Jun 08, 2014 4:34 AM GMT
    hmmmm ... IDK ... maybe they didn't get enough time-out's as kids icon_mad.gif
  • wild_sky360

    Posts: 1492

    Jun 08, 2014 5:39 AM GMT
    I don't think more gun control laws are the answer. Better enforcement perhaps?

    The entire city of Chicago, until very recently had been a totally gun free zone for decades...legally that is. Chicago has also been the murder and gun crime capital of the US..or vying for it. WTF difference did the laws make? Answer..none; other than making more defenseless victims.

    The stuff that makes headlines in other parts of the country..or the world are a typical summer weekend here and barely make the paper. Should they ban guns again entirely? Didn't make a lick of difference either way except for those who defended themselves no longer being prosecuted for the priveledge.

    Detroit police suggest that residents arm themselves for protection, that the police have stated they cannot and will not provide.

    There are reasonable gun control laws in place but they haven't been effective in stopping the rampages because those are anomalies, though I wonder how much longer we can call them that at this rate. Psychoactive drugs are involved in most of them; the prescribed kind, so that's politically incorrect to discuss.

    But mass murdering crazies gonna do the crime no matter what. the virgin loser in Santa Barbara killed half his victims with knives and his vehicle.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Jun 08, 2014 5:47 AM GMT
    at this point, the more the media bitches about gun control, the more people are going to acquire guns (by whatever method)
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14360

    Jun 08, 2014 4:37 PM GMT
    wild_sky360 saidI don't think more gun control laws are the answer. Better enforcement perhaps?

    The entire city of Chicago, until very recently had been a totally gun free zone for decades...legally that is. Chicago has also been the murder and gun crime capital of the US..or vying for it. WTF difference did the laws make? Answer..none; other than making more defenseless victims.

    The stuff that makes headlines in other parts of the country..or the world are a typical summer weekend here and barely make the paper. Should they ban guns again entirely? Didn't make a lick of difference either way except for those who defended themselves no longer being prosecuted for the priveledge.

    Detroit police suggest that residents arm themselves for protection, that the police have stated they cannot and will not provide.

    There are reasonable gun control laws in place but they haven't been effective in stopping the rampages because those are anomalies, though I wonder how much longer we can call them that at this rate. Psychoactive drugs are involved in most of them; the prescribed kind, so that's politically incorrect to discuss.

    But mass murdering crazies gonna do the crime no matter what. the virgin loser in Santa Barbara killed half his victims with knives and his vehicle.
    That is the whole problem, existing laws are not being enforced which is why violent outbreaks like this keep occurring. Its not just in inner city neighborhoods, it is also in the rest of the central city and in all the suburbs. Small towns and isolated rural areas have also experienced sporadic gun violence as well. What good is enacting new laws going to do when they are not even enforcedicon_question.gif
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    Jun 08, 2014 6:13 PM GMT
    BP201 said
    I mean just look at the British police force, they aren't even armed.


    Fortunately for Britain, we left the gun culture back in the 19th century, where it belongs.
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    Jun 08, 2014 6:26 PM GMT
    tazzari saidWe've had several shootings in Seattle in the last few days, including the one at PLU. All the usual posters are having a field day on the Seattle Times website. As far as I can see, very few, if any, are calling for a ban on guns, but quite a few are calling for better control of who gets guns and keeping them out of the hands of lunatics.

    These sensible thoughts are always drowned out by the folks who equate any control of guns with banning them, and there is the usual chorus of "guns don't kill people, people kill people," and "should be ban all knives, too?" and "it's the fault of the mental health system" or "it's because the police weren't there."

    We need to remember that the mental health system, like the police, is overburdened and under-funded. Want better mental health? Fund it. Want better/more police? Fund them. And that, folks, means being willing to take on the necessary tax burden inherent in being part of the community.

    How do we get sensible discussion of this problem? How do we get people to come up with useful suggestions? How to we get Americans to remember that we are community, and that community functions only when we all come to the table to work out mutually satisfactory solutions - which folks, means some give and take.

    Is it even possible in the US today?



    I say FVck community. Give everyone a gun and let everyone hunt each other to extinction.
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2937

    Jun 08, 2014 9:31 PM GMT
    That is the whole problem, existing laws are not being enforced which is why violent outbreaks like this keep occurring. Its not just in inner city neighborhoods, it is also in the rest of the central city and in all the suburbs. Small towns and isolated rural areas have also experienced sporadic gun violence as well. What good is enacting new laws going to do when they are not even enforced

    All good points. But I wonder if a significant part of the problem isn't inadequate funding. If a town or city can hire adequate police, and if the mental health system is over-burdened, not much good will happen.

    In Seattle at least, mere mention of the word "tax" sends people into orbit. But if we're not willing to pay for the protections we demand, it seems useless to blame the police and mental health people who are in my experience at least, hard-working folks who care about their work but feel pretty under appreciated and overwhelmed.

    There is no single solution, but there are many paths worth exploring: better education, more/better law enforcement/mental health services, employment... But they all cost money. Are we willing to pay for what we want?
  • wild_sky360

    Posts: 1492

    Jun 09, 2014 3:05 AM GMT
    The only dark consolation is that most of this violent crime is among criminals who are usually fighting over drug turf. Legalizing marijuana is a first step in defunding these criminal gangs which sprung up to fill a demand for banned substances, just like during prohibition.
    Like the war on drugs, prohibition's main outcome was a massive increase in violent crime.

    Statistically many many more guns are used by law abiding citizens to either halt or prevent a violent crime than to commit one. Someone suggested arming everyone. Bold statement. That's the Swiss culture. That's the culture in the West. These mass atrocities seem to happen mostly in supposed gun free zones.
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    Jun 09, 2014 4:01 AM GMT
    The United States of Anarchy
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    Jun 09, 2014 4:32 AM GMT
    Blondizgd saidI say FVck community. Give everyone a gun and let everyone hunt each other to extinction.
    Great idea! icon_biggrin.gif

    GTA-V.jpg
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Jun 09, 2014 6:51 AM GMT
    25 shootings in Chicago this weekend, at least 3 dead, no national media outcry - I guess it only matters in suburbs
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    Jun 09, 2014 1:29 PM GMT
    in the great recession citizens have less buy in:
    fewer peeps own property
    or
    dont even aspire to own property (all possibility of prosperity is gone)
    or
    have lost their house & family

    there is just a lot of stress on top of things



    if they take away the guns, what new replacement civil rights would the citizens get? Nothing. There is not a lot of government investment in the middle class right now.



    i feel safe and lets face it only a small percentage of people are shot compared to the general population. Let them blaze away and shoot eachother.

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    Jun 09, 2014 1:51 PM GMT
    So far the NRA's claim that giving everyone a gun they can carry openly, because it will REDUCE gun violence, doesn't seem to be working in reality, does it? People can spin all the theories they like, but the proof is in the real-world results. And the NRA and the gun nuts have been proven statistically wrong every time. Not only in the US, but in every modern industrialized country on Earth. Why anybody defends these lunatics is beyond me.
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    Jun 09, 2014 6:14 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidSo far the NRA's claim that giving everyone a gun they can carry openly, because it will REDUCE gun violence, doesn't seem to be working in reality, does it? People can spin all the theories they like, but the proof is in the real-world results. And the NRA and the gun nuts have been proven statistically wrong every time. Not only in the US, but in every modern industrialized country on Earth. Why anybody defends these lunatics is beyond me.


    You're engaging in a straw man argument, mischaracterizing the NRA's position, then arguing against those mischaracterizations.

    You also mischaracterize statistics. In fact, murder rates by firearm are down and accidental firearm death rates are drastically down from 20-30 years ago.

    We need to get a handle on dealing with those with serious mental illness, but we don't seen to have the will or the resources to do it.
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    Jun 09, 2014 8:01 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidSo far the NRA's claim that giving everyone a gun they can carry openly ...
    one flaw in my plan to live a long life is my neighbor (looks like 80+ years old) has a concealed permit. He drives around the neighborhood in his hybrid gulf cart
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    Jun 09, 2014 8:56 PM GMT
    Unfortunately the loonies on the fringe won't allow intelligent conversation on solutions that will support responsible gun ownership.

    However, these mass shootings are a bit more complex then just gun control. So I disagree with the idea that we should focus on gun control discussions without also discussing what else can be done.

    For example, the Santa Barbara shootings had a guy whose family was concerned enough about his mental health to seek professional help and eventually call the police.

    People quickly ran to the defense of the family, the police department and even the mental health professionals.

    While I see no reason to place blame here, I do think this is a great time to review what else could have been done. If we do not have procedures in place today, is there anything more that can be implemented in order to prevent scenarios like this.

    I don't know that there is an easy solution there, but certainly we should get the right people together to have an earnest look at what more could be done. Again, it should not be about blame, just a common sense review by the experts.

    If it really does come down to more funding, then at least we have a plan in place in order to fight for more funding. You can't get funding if you don't know what it is that needs to be done.

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    Jun 10, 2014 8:46 PM GMT
    proponents for gun control often fail to look at the money. The weapons industry has lots of cash and that in a democracy rules.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14360

    Jun 12, 2014 11:58 PM GMT
    BP201 saidWe're so deep in a hole, there's nothing we can do about gun control at this point. States like MD, CT, and NJ have strict gun laws, yet people are buying unregistered guns all over the inner cities, shooting up who ever they please.

    I mean just look at the British police force, they aren't even armed. When the US has millions of armed cops, wtf do you think was going to happen?
    It is not just in the inner cities my friend, the suburbs are also experiencing serious problems with gun violence. It is a serious problem everywhere.
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    Jun 13, 2014 1:16 AM GMT
    tj85016 said25 shootings in Chicago this weekend, at least 3 dead, no national media outcry - I guess it only matters in suburbs


    They don't want to embarrass Rahm Emanuel.