Turning POS at 40 irresponsible?

  • Kjonyou

    Posts: 93

    Jun 29, 2014 10:16 AM GMT
    My friend and I are having a debate. Want to know what other people think.

    I feel sorry for someone who is 18, still very young and maybe not educated enough to realize they can get infected. I also realize some people come out late in life and also fall into that category.

    But what would you say about someone who was out all their life, 40 something years old, saw people die in the 80's, never practice safe sex and never bother to get testes until the day they end up in a hospital with a really low t-cell count and brags about his group bottoming experiences kind of irresponsible?

    At what point do you say you did it to yourself vs poor you, it's not your fault?

    I get tested every 6 months and I can't imagine living in a big city like Los Angeles, never bothering to find out status.

    What do you guys think?
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    Jun 29, 2014 11:43 AM GMT
    I'd say he proved Einstein wrong.

    Einstein's definition of stupidity is "doing the same thing over and over, while expecting a different result."

    A guy who's went half his life without getting tested did the same thing over and over, and eventually got a different result.
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    Jun 29, 2014 7:00 PM GMT
    kjonyou saidMy friend and I are having a debate. Want to know what other people think.

    I feel sorry for someone who is 18, still very young and maybe not educated enough to realize they can get infected. I also realize some people come out late in life and also fall into that category.

    But what would you say about someone who was out all their life, 40 something years old, saw people die in the 80's, never practice safe sex and never bother to get testes until the day they end up in a hospital with a really low t-cell count and brags about his group bottoming experiences kind of irresponsible?

    At what point do you say you did it to yourself vs poor you, it's not your fault?

    I get tested every 6 months and I can't imagine living in a big city like Los Angeles, never bothering to find out status.

    What do you guys think?


    I have empathy for someone naive, young or old. Or even for people who get tested regularly and make a human mistake....I will not judge. There's plenty of disinformation right here on the HIV/AIDS forum.

    But your friend played Russian Roulette for years, and probably infected MANY others in the intervening years before his symptoms started to appear. He was grossly irresponsible to himself, his partners and to society.

    The two most DANGEROUS GROUPS are the ones who say they are Negative, but haven't been tested in months or years, and those who "don't know" and won't get tested. Ironically there is nothing illegal about it!

    As I've noted before laws were created in an attempt to prevent HIV infections, but only if you know you are POZ. You're off the hook if you don't know. Only recently have they decriminalized HIV+/undetectable cases. But in many states it is "Reckless Endangerment" even when no HIV is transmitted.
    25 years prison time if you know you are POZ, O years if you don't know......it's inducement to NOT get tested (or stop at the last Negative test).

    IMHO every Gay Man owes it to his Gay brothers to get tested and take appropriate care. (If that sounds corny I believe in our community ultimately) If POZ take ART therapy. If you can't or won't at least use condoms. If negative use PrEP or condoms.

    There's no reason to wait to get sick today. Your friend may still respond well to ART therapy. His bragging may just be a coping mechanism. He could have an antisocial problem, he lack empathy for his "world".
    "Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of a disregard for other people’s rights, often crossing the line and violating those rights. It usually begins in childhood or as a teen and continues into their adult lives."http://psychcentral.com/disorders/antisocial-personality-disorder-symptoms/


    You'll hear plenty of people on here who will say lock him away or hang him. Fuck 'em! Get him on ART Therapy and get him some psychological help.
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    Jun 30, 2014 12:06 AM GMT
    I feel sad whenever I hear that prevention messages have failed and anybody gets an STD infection of any kind.
  • Kjonyou

    Posts: 93

    Jun 30, 2014 6:47 AM GMT
    That is the odd part, this friend is on HIV meds, not sure which ones but it is totally OK. He is also found his way onto permanent disability or Social Security so he dose not have to work. So in that respect he sure seems to know how to take care of himself.

    Of coarse this dose not seem to stop him from parting almost every day. He uses that now as an excuse that he could die any day. Yet from what he has told me, his t-cells are way up over 600 and he is undetectable.

    He works side jobs under the table, hits the gym and every party someone has in the neighborhood. Certainly not home lying in bed.

    Yet he still runs around and acts like a victim. And while I know we should not judge, I just don't feel like I should be sorry for him.



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    Jun 30, 2014 12:22 PM GMT
    kjonyou saidThat is the odd part, this friend is on HIV meds, not sure which ones but it is totally OK. He is also found his way onto permanent disability or Social Security so he dose not have to work. So in that respect he sure seems to know how to take care of himself.

    Of coarse this dose not seem to stop him from parting almost every day. He uses that now as an excuse that he could die any day. Yet from what he has told me, his t-cells are way up over 600 and he is undetectable.

    He works side jobs under the table, hits the gym and every party someone has in the neighborhood. Certainly not home lying in bed.

    Yet he still runs around and acts like a victim. And while I know we should not judge, I just don't feel like I should be sorry for him.





    it sounds like he has his life under control now. Art therapy is good for him and he's unlikely to pass on HIV being undetectable for at least 6 months.

    What's past is past.
  • Kjonyou

    Posts: 93

    Jul 03, 2014 9:55 AM GMT
    What is ART therapy? Do you mean HAART therapy?

    Where did you get the idea his life is under control? He is still drinking every day, still sleeps around without telling guys he is POS. Still lying to his partner about being faithful.

    I would not say the past is the past if he is out there purposely bare backing and not at least letting the men informed decisions if they want to play with him or at least take some steps to minimize risk.
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    Jul 03, 2014 12:01 PM GMT
    kjonyou saidThat is the odd part, this friend is on HIV meds, not sure which ones but it is totally OK. He is also found his way onto permanent disability or Social Security so he dose not have to work. So in that respect he sure seems to know how to take care of himself.

    Of coarse this dose not seem to stop him from parting almost every day. He uses that now as an excuse that he could die any day. Yet from what he has told me, his t-cells are way up over 600 and he is undetectable.

    He works side jobs under the table, hits the gym and every party someone has in the neighborhood. Certainly not home lying in bed.

    Yet he still runs around and acts like a victim. And while I know we should not judge, I just don't feel like I should be sorry for him.

    Is he telling guys he's poz? In some jurisdictions that's a prosecutable crime, you go to jail for it. Though if he's in California with you I suppose not.

    I don't like your friend's attitude, or his ethics. He sets a bad example, and if he's not having safe sex, he's a public health menace. He can kill himself if he likes, but he may be killing others, and costing ME and others a fortune through Social Security and other health care. He also gives all gays a bad name.

    Frankly, even though he's a gay guy, if I knew about a man like that I would report him to the health authorities. That would be saving other lives. Hate to sound so Right Wing and Conservative (me of all people) but there's a greater good involved here. Your friend, as you describe him, is a health menace. He should be stopped.
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    Jul 05, 2014 2:26 AM GMT
    There are many bug chasers out there. And most people who get infected "by accident" are just being plain irresponsible. Nowadays everyone knows the risks and how to take precautions, thing is an alarming percentage of gays chose to ignore them.
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Jul 05, 2014 3:31 AM GMT
    Booze and drugs don't care about age
  • SuntoryTime

    Posts: 656

    Jul 06, 2014 1:28 AM GMT
    David3K saidThere are many bug chasers out there. And most people who get infected "by accident" are just being plain irresponsible. Nowadays everyone knows the risks and how to take precautions, thing is an alarming percentage of gays chose to ignore them.


    That's because the vast majority of people that get infected sincerely believe the person they're having sex with is not HIV positive and the people they're having sex with sincerely believe they are not HIV positive.

    BTW: in my line of work I come across MANY HIV positive people. Some of them are more intelligent, more kind, and more responsible than anyone on this board will ever be, including me. A lot of those people will get or continue taking treatment and go on to do great things.
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    Jul 09, 2014 6:00 PM GMT
    SuntoryTime said
    David3K saidThere are many bug chasers out there. And most people who get infected "by accident" are just being plain irresponsible. Nowadays everyone knows the risks and how to take precautions, thing is an alarming percentage of gays chose to ignore them.


    That's because the vast majority of people that get infected sincerely believe the person they're having sex with is not HIV positive and the people they're having sex with sincerely believe they are not HIV positive.

    BTW: in my line of work I come across MANY HIV positive people. Some of them are more intelligent, more kind, and more responsible than anyone on this board will ever be, including me. A lot of those people will get or continue taking treatment and go on to do great things.


    If you are a "bug chaser" undetectable is futile. "Best bet" would be to find "HIV- don't know" types or someone who lists their last test date from last year.
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    Jul 09, 2014 6:13 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    Is he telling guys he's poz? In some jurisdictions that's a prosecutable crime, you go to jail for it. Though if he's in California with you I suppose not.

    I don't like your friend's attitude, or his ethics. He sets a bad example, and if he's not having safe sex, he's a public health menace. He can kill himself if he likes, but he may be killing others, and costing ME and others a fortune through Social Security and other health care. He also gives all gays a bad name.

    Frankly, even though he's a gay guy, if I knew about a man like that I would report him to the health authorities. That would be saving other lives. Hate to sound so Right Wing and Conservative (me of all people) but there's a greater good involved here. Your friend, as you describe him, is a health menace. He should be stopped.


    You of all people? it's exactly what I expect from you. While I think everyone should be open and transparent about their status, your typical scaremongering is counter productive.

    I read the article below and thought of you!

    "Today, though, the willful ignorance isn’t coming from uneducated residents of a southern town you can barely find on a map.

    It’s coming from gay men.

    And they are just as threatened, frightened and dismissive of science as the townsfolk of Williamson were 30-years-ago."

    http://southfloridagaynews.com/Health/will-hiv-ever-be-safe-enough-for-you.html
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    Jul 09, 2014 7:17 PM GMT
    kjonyou saidWhat is ART therapy? Do you mean HAART therapy?

    Where did you get the idea his life is under control? He is still drinking every day, still sleeps around without telling guys he is POS. Still lying to his partner about being faithful.

    I would not say the past is the past if he is out there purposely bare backing and not at least letting the men informed decisions if they want to play with him or at least take some steps to minimize risk.


    The terms are equivalent.

    http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Meds/Q198657.html


    Since he "brags about his group bottoming experiences" I will assume it's a bareback party of some sort. I've only seen parties on bbrt, there you can check everyone's who's going and their profile, complete with HIV status: Neg, Poz, Undetectable, don't know, don't care. I have to wonder what kind of a foolish Negative man would go to such a party.

    Maybe it's on Craigslist and doesn't give any details. There is an implied risk of coming in contact with someone POZ. Unless you are Neg and on PrEP, your a fool to attend. That's one thing I like about PrEP, the Neg guys are finally taking responsibility for their own bodies, they can be proactive. The danger isn't in the undetectable men, it's the one's who assume they are still negative 2 years after their last test.

    But lets say a Negative Top did hook up with your friend. The Top has a reduced risk to begin with. The receptive partner's is a greater risk. Your friend has "minimize risk" by being undetectable. Google "Undetectable is the new Negative". And the "Partners HIV Study". And "Huffington Post beyond Poz and Neg". Or Dr. Fauci "Undetectable Treatment as Prevention." Limit your searches on undetectable to within the last year. Information is changing quickly. Old information is just that.

    Your friend is a douche for lying to his partner, no question. That could end your friendship, but it's hardly criminal. I don't think his group parties are psychologically healthy, especially if it involves drugs. That can endanger his ART regimen. And other STDs are out there.

    But he just got a HUGE reprieve on his life, hopefully he'll come back from his fantasy world intact. He has his health back, goes to the gym and an income.....that's something!
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    Jul 11, 2014 2:37 AM GMT
    SuntoryTime said
    David3K saidThere are many bug chasers out there. And most people who get infected "by accident" are just being plain irresponsible. Nowadays everyone knows the risks and how to take precautions, thing is an alarming percentage of gays chose to ignore them.


    That's because the vast majority of people that get infected sincerely believe the person they're having sex with is not HIV positive and the people they're having sex with sincerely believe they are not HIV positive.

    BTW: in my line of work I come across MANY HIV positive people. Some of them are more intelligent, more kind, and more responsible than anyone on this board will ever be, including me. A lot of those people will get or continue taking treatment and go on to do great things.

    The only situation when that is a valid excuse is when men get infected by their cheating ltr partners. Sadly most infections happen during casual sex. Believing a guy say "Im neg" is being irresponsible, plain and simple.
  • SuntoryTime

    Posts: 656

    Jul 11, 2014 7:32 AM GMT
    David3K said
    SuntoryTime said
    David3K saidThere are many bug chasers out there. And most people who get infected "by accident" are just being plain irresponsible. Nowadays everyone knows the risks and how to take precautions, thing is an alarming percentage of gays chose to ignore them.


    That's because the vast majority of people that get infected sincerely believe the person they're having sex with is not HIV positive and the people they're having sex with sincerely believe they are not HIV positive.

    BTW: in my line of work I come across MANY HIV positive people. Some of them are more intelligent, more kind, and more responsible than anyone on this board will ever be, including me. A lot of those people will get or continue taking treatment and go on to do great things.

    The only situation when that is a valid excuse is when men get infected by their cheating ltr partners. Sadly most infections happen during casual sex. Believing a guy say "Im neg" is being irresponsible, plain and simple.


    If you have sex, you put yourself at risk. No way around that.

    If you have unprotected sex, no matter how long you have known your partner, you put yourself at greater risk. No way around that. You chose to have unprotected sex.

    In the end, once a person seroconverts, there is no point in attempting to shame them. It’s far more important to get them on treatment, remind them about basic sexual responsibility, and recommend they seek therapy if necessary.
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    Jul 11, 2014 6:44 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said.... if I knew about a man like that I would report him to the health authorities. That would be saving other lives. Hate to sound so Right Wing and Conservative (me of all people) but there's a greater good involved here. Your friend, as you describe him, is a health menace. He should be stopped.


    What you consistently fail to understand is that ART Therapy and PrEP are for the public good (and the HIV person's health too)! If he has been consistently undetectable for 6 months his chance of transmitting HIV is probably "ZERO". PrEP is proactive for HIV-. If everyone was on either of the two there wouldn't be any new HIV cases.

    He may be a slut, but he's not spreading HIV. He isn't a menace. No one is going to die from his lack of HIV transmission. That you think condoms are the only way to save lives, and people on ART are a "menace" says you are totally out of touch with modern medicine. The thing he needs to worry about is the other STDs.

    I did call the Riverside County Health Department. They don't verify someone's HIV status one way or the other. She said if there was a complaint they would call and do counseling. It's been a he said/he said situation they stay out of. It becomes a legal matter. To which I refer you to the Rhodes/Iowa case where HIV+ UNDETECTABLE is being decriminalized.
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    Jul 11, 2014 9:24 PM GMT
    AMoonHawk saidBooze and drugs don't care about age
    or wealth, or social status, or national origin, or political leaning, or physical appearance, or ...
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    Jul 12, 2014 9:58 AM GMT
    " He uses that now as an excuse that he could die any day. Yet from what he has told me, his t-cells are way up over 600 and he is undetectable."

    I've been thinking about the above.
    That comment tells me your friend is going through a lot right now.

    His diagnosis came before his treatment, and he's still dealing with that reality. He hasn't had time to adjusted to the 2nd reality: he can live a long, normal and happy life.

    He's been brainwashed for decades that he's dying. Now he has a reprieve. On top of that he can be healthy and essentially NOT transmit the virus....

    Guilt, relief, euphoria that he is no longer "toxic". To have essentially an AIDS diagnosis and now have 600+ and undetectable is a HUGE change.
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    Jul 12, 2014 3:30 PM GMT
    There is no such thing as "safe sex." There is no sex and "safer" sex. Those are your options. That being said, it's highly unlikely you will contract HIV if you're using condoms during anal sex. BUT....accidents do happen, so no....it's not really fair to call an individual "irresponsible" just because they catch it.

    What IS irresponsible is the gay community as a whole in regards to preventing this disease. With what we know about HIV/AIDS at this point, we should have practically no new infections, save for the few freak accidents due to condoms breaking.
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    Jul 12, 2014 5:52 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidThere is no such thing as "safe sex." There is no sex and "safer" sex. Those are your options. That being said, it's highly unlikely you will contract HIV if you're using condoms during anal sex. BUT....accidents do happen, so no....it's not really fair to call an individual "irresponsible" just because they catch it.

    What IS irresponsible is the gay community as a whole in regards to preventing this disease. With what we know about HIV/AIDS at this point, we should have practically no new infections, save for the few freak accidents due to condoms breaking.


    The OP's friend was sick enough to show symptoms. He may have been positive for 10 years or more. The irresponsible comment was regarding his BB sex and him now being undetectable.

    He WAS being irresponsible for those 10 years by NOT being tested and spreading HIV. Now he is undetectable and is not spreading HIV. I do not think he is being irresponsible now, in regarding HIV transmission.

    What works better for heterosexuals? The "pill" or a condom? Condoms at 18 out of 100 is only "moderately effective". The pill is 8 of 100 is "effective."
    http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/contraception/bc_chart.html#

    Condoms haven't been tested for anal use typically, and it's considered to have an even higher failure rate. 1 in 5 is not a "freak" accident.

    ART (and PrEP slightly less so) at "nearly if not zero" is better than anything to prevent HIV. I think condoms are the best thing to prevent other STDs, so I'm NOT saying they've been replaced.
  • Kjonyou

    Posts: 93

    Jul 14, 2014 7:10 AM GMT
    You guys hit on some good points. If my friend is undetectable, then I guess he is not infecting anyone. As far as I know he is really good about taking his meds. Mostly to save his life, not to protect other guys.

    10 years of being POS is what I suspected too. I didn't think you can get HIV and suddenly end up in the hospital.

    Any you are right, if he is hooking up in a group situation, you would think that everyone would assume at least half of the guys might be POS.

    His partner knows he is POS and since I know him I can say he is very careful not to get transmission of anything.

    That being said, the cheating part is all the easier for him because he could always claim his partner knew about his status.

    It just still feels wrong that he wants every ones sympathy though. Most of the other guys I have met deal with it with a sort of dignity and humanity.

    This friend tries to do that. For a month or so he will go to an AIDS donation event or food back and help. But then he gets board and starts saying things like "what about donations to me" "where is my fund".
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    Jul 14, 2014 7:30 AM GMT
    lol

    its unfortunate but, I don't feel bad lol.. I once did

    I mean I'm like oh icon_sad.gif
    but, omg like that guy who posted decapitation videos or whatever... I forget his name
    I've seen a lot of that and I'm like omg... #firstworldproblems

    Like not that #firstworld is a cakewalk but,

    other places people just die from it like.. Lol

    where is my fund

    lol
    Q:where is my fund?
    lol
    Q:where is my fund?
    lol

    A:fuck you?

    Go work at McDonalds
    oh wait, food service doesn't allow people with HIV to handle food legally...
    oh wait,
    oh wait,
    where is your fund?
  • SuntoryTime

    Posts: 656

    Jul 14, 2014 10:15 AM GMT
    kjonyou saidYou guys hit on some good points. If my friend is undetectable, then I guess he is not infecting anyone. As far as I know he is really good about taking his meds. Mostly to save his life, not to protect other guys.

    10 years of being POS is what I suspected too. I didn't think you can get HIV and suddenly end up in the hospital.

    Any you are right, if he is hooking up in a group situation, you would think that everyone would assume at least half of the guys might be POS.

    His partner knows he is POS and since I know him I can say he is very careful not to get transmission of anything.

    That being said, the cheating part is all the easier for him because he could always claim his partner knew about his status.

    It just still feels wrong that he wants every ones sympathy though. Most of the other guys I have met deal with it with a sort of dignity and humanity.

    This friend tries to do that. For a month or so he will go to an AIDS donation event or food back and help. But then he gets board and starts saying things like "what about donations to me" "where is my fund".


    Sounds like your friend's issues go far, far beyond living with HIV.
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    Jul 14, 2014 6:17 PM GMT
    Snaz saidlol



    oh wait, food service doesn't allow people with HIV to handle food legally...





    ?????