Thoughts on Hamas vs Israel?

  • highforthis

    Posts: 681

    Jul 19, 2014 9:45 PM GMT
    Just wondering what the gays think of the current conflict... Might hv to cancel that trip to Tel Aviv now that it's within rocket range lol
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Jul 19, 2014 10:56 PM GMT
    Bring a flak jacket. Can't really blame the Palestinians for what they do. The West has been trying to Balkanize the Middle East for 120 years
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Jul 19, 2014 10:56 PM GMT
    An unequal contest.
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    Jul 19, 2014 11:00 PM GMT
    Natural selection.
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    Jul 19, 2014 11:52 PM GMT
    Time for that popcorn .gif.
  • craycraydoesd...

    Posts: 596

    Jul 19, 2014 11:55 PM GMT
    Not too familiar with the backstory, nor do I care what the Torah or Quran says, but based on the fact that there's even a debate about who's right, I'm assuming Israel owe the Palestinians since circa 1948.

    I'm probably with most people when I think the IDF response is over-the-top given the minimum threat. But what compromise does Israel have to do to no longer have to deal with rocket attacks and suicide bombers? The answer I keep hearing from Muslims on the internet is something along the lines of total eradication of the Jews from the land...
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Jul 19, 2014 11:58 PM GMT
    ^^

    yep, just like 1948, tit for tat, it's human nature
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    Jul 20, 2014 12:03 AM GMT
    I wish a plane could write this in the sky over the entire Middle East:

    Your Religions Have Made You Animals
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    Jul 20, 2014 12:41 AM GMT
    Retaliation is not peace.

    As to the 1948 comment...

    Both Hawaii & Alaska didn't become states until 1959. Many borders we know today are not that old. So unless you're considering giving Hawaii back or paying what it's worth, you might want to reconsider.

    Here are some timelines on all that....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_the_region_of_Palestine
    c. 1200 BC – The conquest of Canaan by Joshua.
    c. 1026 BC – Saul becomes the first king of the United Kingdom of Israel.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
    In the 330s BCE, Alexander the Great conquered Palestine, and the region changed hands numerous times during the wars of the Diadochi, ultimately joining the Seleucid Empire between 219–200 BCE. In 116 BCE, a Seleucid civil war resulted in the independence of certain regions including the minor Hasmonean principality in the Judean Mountains. From 110 BCE, the Hasmoneans extended their authority over much of Palestine, creating a Judean–Samaritan–Idumaean–Ituraean–Galilean alliance.[3] The Judean (Jewish, see Ioudaioi) control over the wider region resulted in it also becoming known as Judaea


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinian_people
    Under the Ottomans, Palestine's Arab population mostly saw themselves as Ottoman subjects...In the 1830s, Palestine was occupied by the Egyptian vassal of the Ottomans...In 1882 the population numbered approximately 320,000 people, 25,000 of whom were Jewish...At the beginning of the 20th century, a "local and specific Palestinian patriotism" emerged. The Palestinian identity grew progressively. In 1911...the first Palestinian nationalist organisations appeared


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people
    Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times. A study of high-resolution haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Israeli Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Jul 20, 2014 1:21 AM GMT
    the creation of Israel by decree was one of the dumbest decisions ever made by humankind

    who could possibly criticize the Palestinians for what they do?

    endless war - wonderful

    then we get every idiot Sec'y of State trying to broker peace and nab a Nobel Prize, what a joke
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    Jul 20, 2014 1:38 AM GMT
    I suppose you could always give it back to the Ottoman Empire. Good luck with that.
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Jul 20, 2014 1:23 PM GMT
    It would have been better if a single state had been created in 1948: secular, democratic, etc.and for all peoples who live there already, regardless of religious affliation, ethnicity, etc.

    What was produced is, and has proved to be, unstable and divisive. Conflict was always going to be highly likely.
  • carew28

    Posts: 660

    Jul 20, 2014 6:05 PM GMT
    Lincsbear saidIt would have been better if a single state had been created in 1948: secular, democratic, etc.and for all peoples who live there already, regardless of religious affliation, ethnicity, etc.

    What was produced is, and has proved to be, unstable and divisive. Conflict was always going to be highly likely.



    This is true. The geographic boundaries between Israel and Palestine are too intertwined, and both states depend upon the same natural resources (farmland, Jordan River, etc.). The conflict over the city of Jerusalem has no solution. And the refugee situation, although it's over 60 years old now, still needs to be addressed. The two-state situation isn't really sustainable over the long term, without perpetual warfare. A secular state inclusive of both Jews and Moslems would be fairer, and more practical, in the long term.
  • mybud

    Posts: 11837

    Jul 21, 2014 2:19 AM GMT
    When that Palestinian youth was killed by an Israeli, Israel authorities promised to bring that person to justice...When several Palestinians killed 3 Israeli youth,one of the mothers of one of the suspected killers said, "she's proud of her son's action". Palestinians cheered in the streets. We need to back Israel at all costs.
  • TheSkyWasYell...

    Posts: 310

    Jul 21, 2014 8:04 PM GMT
    Anyone who sympathizes with Hamas is pure neo-Nazi. The very first paragraph of their official charter states that their raison d'etre is the extermination of Jews.

    These Pali creatures are so degenerate and stupid, it doesn't occur to their 1400-year-inbred brains that if they STOP firing rockets at Israel, Israel will stop bombing them! That's a very simple equation to figure out.

    And since Palestinian invertebrate pond-life likes to cheer when Americans & homosexuals die, this American homosexual cheers when Palestinian sewer-residue die. These mindless, violent criminal Palis are nothing but a liability to the human race.
  • highforthis

    Posts: 681

    Jul 31, 2014 3:30 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidthe creation of Israel by decree was one of the dumbest decisions ever made by humankind

    who could possibly criticize the Palestinians for what they do?


    Two wrongs don't make a right though. And we all know deep down that nothing less than extermination of the Jews will be enough to satisfy Hamas and similar groups in the Middle East. That's why they didn't take the 50/50 deal in 1948.
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    Aug 01, 2014 4:23 AM GMT

    He usually gets it right, but nobody really listens icon_lol.gif


    Jon Stewart Says The U.S. Is 'Like The Oprah Of Middle East Weapons Systems!'

  • jaroslav123

    Posts: 600

    Aug 02, 2014 3:30 AM GMT
    It's nasty no matter what side you look at it. It is an utter tragedy and I see no real positives.

    Ultimately, what can we learn from it? That nationalism is a vile ideological standpoint and that loving one's own country has the potential to be an incredibly dangerous, pernicious and nasty view to hold.

    Israel hates Hamas and wants all the Palestinian's dead (they say they don't, but read behind the lines, and read enough Zionist articles, you'll learn it the hard way). Hamas want to knock Israel off the map and make a Palestinian state (although, due to pressure, they've removed this from their constitution). Inevitably, we're in a state of affairs where the Palestinian people are dying and suffering. Israel claims they want to kill Hamas insurgents, but really they're just massacring civilians - and they've done this for so long, that the whole "it was an accident, we didn't mean to, we only wanted to get the Hamas terrorists" argument has no intellectual standpoint. Let's face it - they're gleefully committing genocide.

    The Human Shield argument is nonsense. As is the "Poor poor Israel is defending itself" argument (You can't use bombs as a defence - on a logical level they're a weapon designed not to prevent harm occurring to oneself but to inflict harm on others, thus calling it a defence is utter arse-wank. If anything it is an attack or a retaliation - whether the retaliation is 'just' or not is a whole new topic).

    Another issue with Israel/Palestine is the way it is discussed in debate. If somebody criticises Israel they're called pro-Hamas and if somebody criticises Hamas, they're called Pro-Israel/Anti-Palestine. And if somebody criticises Hamas and Israel and is open about this, they're accused of believing that "they're just as bad as each other". Israel and Palestine are two separate areas with entirely different living conditions, so saying they're both as bad as each other is nonsense. Palestine is living under a brutal occupation, essentially barbaric totalitarianism. They don't stand a chance because they're not as heavily-funded as Israel is (another reason why the "Poor Israel defending itself" argument is tripe, and also just propaganda).

    Of course inevitably what happens when you find yourself in debate with a Zionist is that they accuse you of being Anti-semetic. To a ratbag Zionist there is no difference between being anti-semetic and anti-Zionist. A Zionist believes that Israel is the homeland only for jews and nobody else. They cannot budge. They have been brainwashed. Go on the facebook page of a Zionist and see how all of their sources are from Israeli fucking TV.

    I have a lot of thoughts on this, and there are numerous concepts and ideas I could express but I'd be here all day. In summary: the situation there is absolutely shit for humanity.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 02, 2014 6:21 AM GMT
    I think everyone is more interested in when the next iphone comes out.
  • jock_1

    Posts: 1491

    Aug 02, 2014 2:27 PM GMT
    Makes me thank the Lord I live in the USA !
  • jaroslav123

    Posts: 600

    Aug 02, 2014 9:13 PM GMT
    xrichx saidI think everyone is more interested in when the next iphone comes out.


    Crap trolling. But Apple (like numerous other companies) funds Israel...
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    Aug 04, 2014 11:00 AM GMT
    A very simple look at the modern history of the region shows that Jews were present in Palestine but in small numbers. When the British took control of the region after the collapse of the ottoman empire, they promised the Jews a Land of their own in Palestine. To me I consider that to be extremely absurd, as they promised the Jews a land out of someone else's country. Palestine was inhabited by Palestininas(Muslims, Christians and Jews) and the British then helped "import" thousands of Jews mostly from European countries into Palestine. Ultimately they bought lands, formed militias, attacked the Palestinians... Caused as many as 700,000 to flee their country into neighboring ones and then declared independence. So really the whole concept of an Israeli state is based on occupation and oppression of the original people of that land. And honestly I couldn't care less about what religions say about that matter as it is redicuolus to establish countries based on some book. I'll just create some religion and claim Texas was given to me by God and I want it back. LOL. As for Hamas I don't think we can actually blame them. The Israelis have been enforcing a siege on that enclave for years now. They bomb them when they feel like it and arrest thousands for no reason. And also I can't believe that some ppl actually hate how Hamas fires rockets(THAT CAUSE NO REAL HARM) at Israel while on the other hand Israel has killed thousands of civilians over the years with little repercussions. Take west Beirut for example when Israel besieged the city for 10 weeks and killed 17,000 Lebanese and Palestininas most of whom were civilians. Not to mention the hundreds of massacres committed throughout the years mostly in Lebanon and Palestine. Anyways this topic is really complicated ...so yeah these are my thoughts icon_smile.gif
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Aug 05, 2014 8:48 AM GMT
    joe_m92 saidA very simple look at the modern history of the region shows that Jews were present in Palestine but in small numbers.

    As were Arabs - after they invaded, conquered, occupied and colonized the land. But that's ok?

    Joe> When the British took control of the region after the collapse of the ottoman empire, they promised the Jews a Land of their own in Palestine. To me I consider that to be extremely absurd, as they promised the Jews a land out of someone else's country.

    Except that "Palestine" had never been a country and hadn't existed in the 400 years of Ottoman rule. In that era, just about 100 years ago, "Palestine" was the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland. Arabs denied such a place existed, calling it a "Zionist invention".

    Joe> the British then helped "import" thousands of Jews mostly from European countries into Palestine.

    So it's bad for Jews to come from Bosnia, but not for Muslims to come from Bosnia (there was a Bosnian Muslim "colony" in Caesarea). Or it's okay for Arabs & Muslims to come from Morocco and Afghanistan, but not for Jews to come from Morocco and Warsaw (which is closer)?

    Joe> Ultimately they bought lands

    Correct. BOUGHT.

    Joe> formed militias

    Correct. To defend themselves AFTER being attacked.

    Joe> Caused as many as 700,000 to flee their country into neighboring ones and then declared independence.

    Wrong. It was the Arab parties who violently rejected the UN partition compromise of 29 Nov 1947 and began attacking the Jewish community. Given the Arab threats of war and extermination (including treating Arabs who remained as "collaborators"), many FLED even before Israel declared independence nearly half a year later.

    Joe> So really the whole concept of an Israeli state is based on occupation and oppression of the original people of that land.

    Hardly. Not only aren't Arabs (or Arabic) indigenous to Israel/Palestine (note that Jews and Hebrew are), but there was no "occupation" or "oppression".

    Joe> it is redicuolus to establish countries based on some book.

    The Jewish claim isn't based on a mythical promise but on living there, CONTINUOUSLY, for at least 3,300 years.

    Joe> As for Hamas I don't think we can actually blame them.

    No real surprise, eh? Never mind that they gained infamy in 1994 not for "resisting" the Israeli "occupation" but for trying to blow up the Oslo peace process?

    Joe> The Israelis have been enforcing a siege on that enclave for years now.

    Israel's legal blockade started after Israel's withdrawal from Gaza was reciprocated with the skyrocketing of terrorism from there against Israeli civilians. Can't blame Hamas for that, either?

    Joe> They bomb them when they feel like it and arrest thousands for no reason.

    Israel strikes at the rocket launchers AFTER they start attacking Israel. The current episode being another case in point (so was 2008/9 and 2012).

    Joe> I can't believe that some ppl actually hate how Hamas fires rockets(THAT CAUSE NO REAL HARM) at Israel

    The harm is mitigated because Israel has spent lots of money on warning systems, bomb shelters, safe rooms and anti-missile missiles. But the potential for damage is there. How would you like to have 1 minute (or less) to reach a bomb shelter several times a day?

    Joe> Israel has killed thousands of civilians over the years

    As has just about every country on earth. This is a consequence of war. The odd thing is that here these wars are routinely started by the weaker party - who then even refuse ceasefires.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Aug 05, 2014 8:54 AM GMT
    Lincsbear saidIt would have been better if a single state had been created in 1948: secular, democratic, etc.and for all peoples who live there already, regardless of religious affliation, ethnicity, etc.

    What was produced is, and has proved to be, unstable and divisive. Conflict was always going to be highly likely.

    Because a single state worked so well in Lebanon, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia (though at least the last broke up peacefully).

    Your comparison of one thing (that happened) with a utopian ideal is a false dichotomy/dilemma.

    Not to mention that it ignores the strife that predated and led to the 1947 partition compromise.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Aug 05, 2014 8:56 AM GMT
    carew28 saidThe geographic boundaries between Israel and Palestine are too intertwined

    A secular state inclusive of both Jews and Moslems would be fairer, and more practical, in the long term.

    Israel is a secular state.
    How many others are there in the mideast?

    What makes you think that over-running Israel with Muslim (some more extreme than others) will make things better?

    As to borders:

    bosnia_herzegovina_political_map.gif

    Also consider: