Religious Genocide in the Mid-east

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 06, 2014 7:33 PM GMT
    Islamic extremists killing off minorities - Anything new here?

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/secretive-yazidi-kurds-why-islamic-militants-want-kill-135653052.html#g7JRs6W

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/iraqi-yazidis-stranded-on-isolated-mountaintop-begin-to-die-of-thirst/2014/08/05/57cca985-3396-41bd-8163-7a52e5e72064_story.html

    Just like they did in Constaninople in 1453 (except they weren't regarded as extremist at the time - just mainstream Muslims).

    And just like the Pope and the Catholics did to the Cathars in France in the 13th century.

    Religion - Isn't it just great? (I guess genocide at least helps some with world over population.)


  • ASHDOD

    Posts: 1057

    Aug 06, 2014 9:39 PM GMT


    Islam - Isn't it just great?
    corrected
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 06, 2014 9:52 PM GMT
    Homer Simpson said "alcohol is the cause of, and the solution to, all the world's problems."

    I disagree, I think it's religion. Sure lots of religious organizations have finally stopped promoting violence and hatred, but this is a new thing. Original religions were hateful, murderous, and oppressive...and many still are; they're just more passive-aggressive about it now.
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    Aug 06, 2014 11:53 PM GMT
    No where near the same percentage of the human race has been wiped out by religion as has been by secular philosophies whose origins derive from Western Enlightenment (and pre-Enlightenment) thought. Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Communist China, brutal fascist and communist dictatorships, and the lives ruined (and still ruined by) imperialism and racial slavery all derive their sustenance from thought conceived in opposition to religion.

    You may have had a case in the 1500s, but the intervening 500 years should make even the most obtuse simpleton realize that the worst evils that befall the human race do not spring forth from religion, and many of them have sprung precisely because their political and civil spheres lacked strong religious influence.
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    Aug 07, 2014 12:51 AM GMT
    KJSharp saidNo where near the same percentage of the human race has been wiped out by religion as has been by secular philosophies whose origins derive from Western Enlightenment (and pre-Enlightenment) thought. Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Communist China, brutal fascist and communist dictatorships, and the lives ruined (and still ruined by) imperialism and racial slavery all derive their sustenance from thought conceived in opposition to religion.

    You may have had a case in the 1500s, but the intervening 500 years should make even the most obtuse simpleton realize that the worst evils that befall the human race do not spring forth from religion, and many of them have sprung precisely because their political and civil spheres lacked strong religious influence.

    Absolute numbers in genocides may well be greater on the part of ethnic and non-religious persecutions, but religious based persecutions would appear to be almost universal, and have killed quite enough, thank you. Even the supposedly peace-loving Buddhists are carrying them out today. Germany's extermination of Jews is hardly the endproduct of the enlightenment, but rather a result of long-standing religious prejudice against the jews arising out of Catholic dogma which became engrained in Protestantism as well. The country possessed "a strong religious influence" at the time. Many naively thought (as you seem to) that religious persecution ended in the 1648, at the culmination of the Thirty Years War. Unfortunately, Islamic religious hierarchies weren't a party to the peace.
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    Aug 07, 2014 1:17 AM GMT
    Yes, you're right. The German extermination of the Jews had nothing to do with "the superiority of the Aryan race." It was not influenced at all by Darwin's theory of Evolution. Furthermore, it was not nationalistic in any way.

    Instead, Catholicism, even more ascendent in 1930 than in 1200, finally had the influence and power within society to do what it had always wanted to do but never had the political power to do: exterminate the Jews. The Holy Roman Emperor had kept Catholicism behind the flood gates, and through Hitler all of that Catholicism was released like a tsunami.

    Come on man. What you say is fanciful. Without the nationalism of the nation state, utopian idealism of the Enlightenment (an idealism that has always been conceived in opposition to religion, because the Enlightenment state needs to point to something to justify itself), Fascism and Communism, and a sufficient weakening of Christianity within the intelligentsia so that Darwinian ideas of master races and racial evolutionary progress could take sufficient hold, there never would have been a Holocaust.
  • UVaRob9

    Posts: 282

    Aug 07, 2014 1:22 AM GMT
    KJSharp saidNo where near the same percentage of the human race has been wiped out by religion as has been by secular philosophies whose origins derive from Western Enlightenment (and pre-Enlightenment) thought. Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Communist China, brutal fascist and communist dictatorships, and the lives ruined (and still ruined by) imperialism and racial slavery all derive their sustenance from thought conceived in opposition to religion.

    You may have had a case in the 1500s, but the intervening 500 years should make even the most obtuse simpleton realize that the worst evils that befall the human race do not spring forth from religion, and many of them have sprung precisely because their political and civil spheres lacked strong religious influence.


    Well, one of the Merriam-Webster definitions for religion that doesn't specifically mention god(s) is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith". The examples you've brought up all fit the bill, but I'm not actually trying to argue word usage here. You don't need a god to have a blind, unquestioning belief in something for which there is no evidence, so for you to say that secularism has caused more atrocities in the last 500 years than religion isn't quite right. Stalin, Mao, et al used systems where whatever they said was the law.

    Science, which demands evidence and peer review, under Stalin also wasn't safe: he held up the fraudulent Trofim Lysenko as an horticultural genius and had any other scientists (except his nuclear physicists) who disagreed with Lysenko's "only correct theory" imprisoned or executed. This adherence to a belief caused the Soviets to lose years of research in genetics, a "bourgeois pseudoscience".
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Aug 07, 2014 2:36 AM GMT
    KJSharp saidNo where near the same percentage of the human race has been wiped out by religion as has been by secular philosophies whose origins derive from Western Enlightenment (and pre-Enlightenment) thought. Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Communist China, brutal fascist and communist dictatorships, and the lives ruined (and still ruined by) imperialism and racial slavery all derive their sustenance from thought conceived in opposition to religion.

    You may have had a case in the 1500s, but the intervening 500 years should make even the most obtuse simpleton realize that the worst evils that befall the human race do not spring forth from religion, and many of them have sprung precisely because their political and civil spheres lacked strong religious influence.


    The Nazi holocaust against the Jews was at least partly the result of past and then current Christian doctrine, i.e., that all Jews are responsible for the crucifixion of Christ. For completely irrational reasons, that blame was applied to Jews living during the Nazi era as well as to the few Jews almost two thousand years before who were responsible for the crucifixion as if guilt could be inherited. Considering that even now some Christians believe in inherited sin, commonly referred to as original sin, that should not be too surprising.

    Religion has a checkered history. It has done much good, including building hospitals, establishing schools, and supporting social justice (though not evenly). Probably I need not reiterate that bad things that religion has done.
  • jjguy05

    Posts: 459

    Aug 07, 2014 3:08 AM GMT
    Lots of ignorant responses here.

    Religion is often used as a facade for wars that really have to do with geopolitical interests, economic situations, or identity. If not religion, then the powers that start and declare wars would use other simplistic means to get the masses to a support a war whose true causes they little understand. After all, it isn't hard to get the American people to support bombing some distant country, for the sake of "spreading democracy".
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 07, 2014 3:23 AM GMT
    It is not just the Mid-East, that is worried some but the whole premise of converting the whole world to their beliefs. Their plan is not just to stop in the Mid-East, but that the whole world should be islamic, at whatever the cost.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 07, 2014 3:53 AM GMT
    ^ So true.

    Before the advent of Islam in the 7th century, the Middle East was Christian, Jewish and pagan. Islam, since it's inception, has been driving Christians and Jews from the Middle East and they haven't been doing it by peaceable methods.
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    Aug 07, 2014 4:11 AM GMT
    We are told in school to study history so as not to repeat it but that is a lesson our leaders never learn. Islam aligned itself to the Axis powers in WWI and WWII and we still presume that they are good guys.
  • jjguy05

    Posts: 459

    Aug 07, 2014 4:12 AM GMT
    Alpha13 saidIslam aligned itself to the Axis powers in WWI and WWII


    Care to elaborate?

    Alpha13 said...and we still presume that they are good guys.


    We do?

    "Islam" also aligned itself with the US in the 70s and 80s.

    Alpha13 saidWe are told in school to study history so as not to repeat it...


    Then open your history book. The US convinced Egypt to release Islamic fundamentalists from prison in the 70s and 80s, and then sent them to Afghanistan where it funded and armed them to fight the Soviets. The US wanted to lure the USSR into Afghanistan, and used Islamic fundamentalists to this goal.

    The real world isn't this "good guys us, bad guys them" that you were taught in elementary school.

    Realpolitik. Look it up.

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    Aug 07, 2014 4:18 AM GMT
    UVaRob9 said

    Well, one of the Merriam-Webster definitions for religion that doesn't specifically mention god(s) is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith". The examples you've brought up all fit the bill, but I'm not actually trying to argue word usage here. You don't need a god to have a blind, unquestioning belief in something for which there is no evidence, so for you to say that secularism has caused more atrocities in the last 500 years than religion isn't quite right. Stalin, Mao, et al used systems where whatever they said was the law.

    Science, which demands evidence and peer review, under Stalin also wasn't safe: he held up the fraudulent Trofim Lysenko as an horticultural genius and had any other scientists (except his nuclear physicists) who disagreed with Lysenko's "only correct theory" imprisoned or executed. This adherence to a belief caused the Soviets to lose years of research in genetics, a "bourgeois pseudoscience".


    All disciplines demand "peer review" and "evidence".

    What you seem to be advocating for is an intentional agnosticism toward everything except the material. Yet, I can't help but think that such a philosophy would contribute toward evil, for within that system there is no way to believe in beauty, truth, goodness, nobility, and every other virtue. There are merely atoms and quarks.

    More importantly, we seem to be confronted with invisible truths in our lives on a daily basis. Immaterial goods like love and justice and morality seem to exist. Most people throughout time have perceived that they exist. It would take an equally "blind" "dogmatic" faith in the philosophical viewpoint you advocate for to dismiss them.

    I also think the OP was talking specifically about religion qua religion, not alternate definitions of the word that derive their meaning from certain connotations of "religion." Obviously people kill people because of pride, desire (usually what we call "conquest"), or ideology. It defeats the purpose of discussion to lump all ideology into the category of "religion".

    Ideas are an important part of human existence and shape our lives in countless ways. People will kill over them not just because they are important, but because they are seen as necessary elements of the communal fabric and fabric of the polis. It is hard (and the conservative in me wants to declare "impossible") for people with drastically different ideas and belief systems to forge meaningful community.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 07, 2014 5:06 AM GMT
    KJSharp saidNo where near the same percentage of the human race has been wiped out by religion as has been by secular philosophies whose origins derive from Western Enlightenment (and pre-Enlightenment) thought. Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Communist China, brutal fascist and communist dictatorships, and the lives ruined (and still ruined by) imperialism and racial slavery all derive their sustenance from thought conceived in opposition to religion.

    You may have had a case in the 1500s, but the intervening 500 years should make even the most obtuse simpleton realize that the worst evils that befall the human race do not spring forth from religion, and many of them have sprung precisely because their political and civil spheres lacked strong religious influence.


    It's true. Bad politics and bad government have killed more people and caused more misery than all the world's religions combined.
  • RaggedyMan

    Posts: 7185

    Aug 07, 2014 6:21 AM GMT
    My family fled Iraq during the early 20th century because of this exact thing. The Armenian/Assyrian Genocide took 3 million lives. History tends to repeat itself if we stand back and do nothing. My mom was born and grew up in Mosul, Iraq. She went to church there. It is now empty of an Assyrian/Christian people. I just hope something is done before another 3 million lives are lost.
  • ATLANTIS7

    Posts: 1213

    Aug 07, 2014 6:21 AM GMT
    Puppenjunge saidIslamic extremists killing off minorities - Anything new here?

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/secretive-yazidi-kurds-why-islamic-militants-want-kill-135653052.html#g7JRs6W

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/iraqi-yazidis-stranded-on-isolated-mountaintop-begin-to-die-of-thirst/2014/08/05/57cca985-3396-41bd-8163-7a52e5e72064_story.html

    Just like they did in Constaninople in 1453 (except they weren't regarded as extremist at the time - just mainstream Muslims).

    And just like the Pope and the Catholics did to the Cathars in France in the 13th century.

    Religion - Isn't it just great? (I guess genocide at least helps some with world over population.)
    Don't forget the Crusaders and the red cross all in the name of God?


  • Behram

    Posts: 32

    Aug 08, 2014 6:27 AM GMT
    People who blame religion for bad things are finding an escape goat, instead of trying to understand reality of all mayhem in the world which is injustice. Peace cannot be achieved without absolute justice. And which religion's teaching promote injustice. None.
  • being_human

    Posts: 152

    Aug 08, 2014 6:50 AM GMT
    Islamic extremists are raised and trained like any soldier, brainwashed with a cause that goes against the complexity of the global community today. But this is not religion working its hand, this is completely political, driven by revenge, power and fear. I think these decades are the prime years for Islamic Extremists' ideologies as they are young and stubborn. But civilization will catch on and they might just have to fade away.
    Although religion and politics webs us all, we must remember we are driven most by one factor- to survive and this changes it all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 08, 2014 12:02 PM GMT
    I do agree with you religion is problem in the middle east. I truly hate Muslim extremist. I can't believe the world is doing nothing about this genocide happening in Iraq and Syria.I don't follow any religion but ISIS must be stop.
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    Aug 08, 2014 1:03 PM GMT
    It's really not religions fault but more like the interpretation of religion. People can be extreme in anything they believe in including but not limited to religion.
  • mybud

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    Aug 08, 2014 2:11 PM GMT
    The U.S. needs to put extreme pressure on the present Iraqi president. He continues to shut the sunni's out of the government. They had no other choice than to side with ISIS. Now that we've bombed ISIS targets it reinforces the sunni's belief we don't support them. If Maliki refuses to deal with the sunni's? We should leave.
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    Aug 08, 2014 5:56 PM GMT
    KJSharp saidYes, you're right. The German extermination of the Jews had nothing to do with "the superiority of the Aryan race." It was not influenced at all by Darwin's theory of Evolution. Furthermore, it was not nationalistic in any way.


    Come on man. What you say is fanciful. Without the nationalism of the nation state, utopian idealism of the Enlightenment (an idealism that has always been conceived in opposition to religion, because the Enlightenment state needs to point to something to justify itself), Fascism and Communism, and a sufficient weakening of Christianity within the intelligentsia so that Darwinian ideas of master races and racial evolutionary progress could take sufficient hold, there never would have been a Holocaust.


    That's pseudo-academic rubbish. You should learn a little history.

    The church in Germany did not bring on the holocaust, but the holocaust could not possibly have happened without the widespread cooperation in Germany and Poland of a rabidly anti-semitic citizenry. The Germans and Poles (along with other european peoples) were notoriously anti-semitic, and had been for centuries. Ever heard of a pogrom? All the 20th German kiddies hearing in school from day one that "the Jews killed Jesus," (religion was taught in school) had something to do with keeping anti-semitism alive. Apparently you have not read Martin Luther's diatribe against the Jews, Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen (On the Jews and Their Lies) (If you are going to acquire a good background in theology, you should really read german works).

    And you are apparently unaware that the Catholic party voted Hitler into power. In 1933, the German Center Party (the party of the Catholic church), voted with the Nazis to enact the Ermächtigungsgesetz, which gave Hitler, as Chancellor, dictatorial power in Germany. Without the support of the Catholics, the Nazis could not have won the vote, and Hitler would not have become dictator of Germany. And this Catholic support of the Nazis was long after Mein Kampf, long after the SA had started a campaign against Jews, and after the Nazis organized a national boycott of Jewish businesses.

    The holocaust may have achieved Hitler's personal goals in eliminating Jews, but it thrived on its basis of Christian prejudice against Jews.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 08, 2014 6:11 PM GMT
    Genocide is fathered by Politics, not Religion.
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    Aug 08, 2014 6:12 PM GMT
    Behram saidPeople who blame religion for bad things are finding an escape goat, instead of trying to understand reality of all mayhem in the world which is injustice. Peace cannot be achieved without absolute justice. And which religion's teaching promote injustice. None.
    You must be incredibly naive.
    No one is blaming all killings on religion - but religion is the source of a share. There's no "escape goat." When muslims destroy christian churches in the mid-east (lots of places now) that's not based on religion? When the Catholics rounded up and killed as many protestants as they could in the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre - that was not based on religion? When the muslims slaughtered all the christians in Constantinople, that was not based on religion? The muslims and hindus in India destroying their respective temples and mosques is not based on religion?
    Yeah. Right.