Challenge: differentiate between justifying your racial/ethnic sexual preference and your sexual orientation

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    Jan 12, 2009 2:07 AM GMT
    I was arguing (lol no surprise here) on another website and I came across the realization (thus far) that I cannot justify not being attracted to women any differently than I can justify being or not being attracted to anyone based on their race/ethnicity. I'll present to you the arguments so you can see what I mean: (disclaimer: the statements are theoretical and used as examples and are not my personal beliefs.)


    STATEMENT 1:
    I'm only attracted to Asians

    REBUTTAL 1:
    How can you only be attracted to Asians when there are vastly so many similarities between all racial groups. You are biased and racist.

    APPLIED TO SEX 1:
    How can you only be attracted to men when there are vastly so many similarities between genders. You are biased and sexist.



    STATEMENT 2:
    I've never had sex with black men and I do not want to.

    REBUTTAL 2:
    You don't know that you are not attracted to black men then since you have not tried one out.

    APPLIED TO SEX 2:
    You don't know that you are not attracted to females then since you have not tried one out.


    STATEMENT 3:
    I think white guys are ugly.

    REBUTTAL 3:
    But our view on what is beautiful is always changing and varies from culture to culture. So it's obviously not hard-wired and therefore you can be attractive to people regardless of race.

    APPLIED TO SEX 3:
    But our view on what is considered homosexual activity is always changing and varies from culture to culture. Moreover, the difference between gay and straight is recently blurring. So it's obviously not hard-wired and therefore you can be attractive to people regardless of sex.


    Given these argument examples, I challenge someone to come up with a logical reason why being attractive to ALL races is better, without that same argument also validating that being attractive to ALL sexes is better. I could not come up with a single argument myself to defend the statement, "being sexually attracted to all races is better than being sexually racially specific," without the logic behind the argument incidentally supporting the same notion that, "being sexually attracted to all sexes is better than being sexually attracted to only one sex."

    So far my only conclusion is that both "being attracted to every race" vs being attracted to only one race" are equally justifiable just as "being attracted to only males" vs "beings attracted to females" vs "being attracted to both males and females" is.
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    Jan 12, 2009 2:31 AM GMT
    who said being attracted to all races is the better thing? I just don't rule any race out, there are attractive chinese, japanese, Korean and so on as there are unattractive.. there are attractive african, african american and so on as there are unattractive guys..

    To make an all encompassing statement that you do not like asian guys purely because they are asian is in my head a racial comment because you've rejected a massive group of people based purely on race when infact I am willing to bet that you could find the right asian guy attractive.
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    Jan 12, 2009 2:38 AM GMT
    lilTanker saidTo make an all encompassing statement that you do not like asian guys purely because they are asian is in my head a racial comment because you've rejected a massive group of people based purely on race when infact I am willing to bet that you could find the right asian guy attractive.


    Applied to sex:

    To make an all encompassing statement that you do not like women purely because they are women is in my head a sexist comment because you've rejected a massive group of people based purely on sex when infact I am willing to bet that you could find the right woman attractive.
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    Jan 12, 2009 2:46 AM GMT
    jakebenson said
    lilTanker saidTo make an all encompassing statement that you do not like asian guys purely because they are asian is in my head a racial comment because you've rejected a massive group of people based purely on race when infact I am willing to bet that you could find the right asian guy attractive.


    Applied to sex:

    To make an all encompassing statement that you do not like women purely because they are women is in my head a sexist comment because you've rejected a massive group of people based purely on sex when infact I am willing to bet that you could find the right woman attractive.

    just because you are gay doesn't mean you dislike women.. I'm sure you have friends who are women or maybe not, but I'm betting you don't dislike them..

    However, sexually, I don't believe that gay men are entirely gay, most gay guys I bet are so used to living in the idea that a gay man sleeps with men only that the idea that a gay man could enjoy sexual intercourse with a women would make them all start throwing glitter at me..

    having said that, I do believe that if you are open to the idea, you are willing, you put aside preconceived notions and forget about all the crap society says and just let things happen, you would find a women you are sexually attracted too... that isn't to say you are straight, but we are talking about sex.

    my comment was more about the fact that you say you don't find asians attractive, I disagree you may find most asians unattractive, however, I'm betting you could find a small group of asian men attractive and the thing is when you find one person attractive no matter what there race you end up finding a whole lot more.
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    Jan 12, 2009 2:51 AM GMT
    This whole argument is totally bogus and a waste of time.
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    Jan 12, 2009 2:52 AM GMT
    only to you Red.
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    Jan 12, 2009 2:54 AM GMT
    This is a charmingly silly topic mon cher le wanker because you gain no information by making a substitution of nomenclature. Consider point 1 following a second substitution:

    How can you only be attracted to Rhododendrons when there are vastly so many similarities between all plants. You are biased and an angiospermophobe (what a bastard neologism that is!)

    All you have demonstrated is the limitation of the word attraction, and there is no logic involved whatsoever! Without understanding what drives the attraction i.e. social conditioning, genetics, homeopathy etc, you say nothing at all.

    ;-)
  • DCEric

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    Jan 12, 2009 2:55 AM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidThis whole argument is totally bogus and a waste of time.


    My G-d I didn't know it was possible to sum up everything on the Internet in one statement.

    /You know you laughed.

    As for the OP, um. Why the worry about who people are/are not attracted to?
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    Jan 12, 2009 2:56 AM GMT
    This whole argument is totally bogus and a waste of time.

    Reasons? Data?
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    Jan 12, 2009 4:29 AM GMT
    TigerTim saidThis is a charmingly silly topic mon cher le wanker because you gain no information by making a substitution of nomenclature. Consider point 1 following a second substitution:

    How can you only be attracted to Rhododendrons when there are vastly so many similarities between all plants. You are biased and an angiospermophobe (what a bastard neologism that is!)

    All you have demonstrated is the limitation of the word attraction, and there is no logic involved whatsoever! Without understanding what drives the attraction i.e. social conditioning, genetics, homeopathy etc, you say nothing at all.


    No, I have demonstrated that without knowledge of what drives attraction, then you cannot logically win a conversation to convince a logical person that what they are attracted to is right or wrong.

    Moreover, being attracted to women vs man is a lot more similar to being attracted to white vs black than being attracted to different flowers. You've just reinforced my whole stance that being attracted to all things is not necessarily better than being attracted to just one thing.
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    Jan 12, 2009 4:34 AM GMT
    lilTanker saidmy comment was more about the fact that you say you don't find asians attractive, I disagree you may find most asians unattractive, however, I'm betting you could find a small group of asian men attractive and the thing is when you find one person attractive no matter what there race you end up finding a whole lot more.


    From my personal taste, I agree with you. There are certain type of Asians I personally find highly attractive. However I still don't think that your explanation is convincing enough to suede someone to think that they should try a gaysian.
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    Jan 12, 2009 4:34 AM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidThis whole argument is totally bogus and a waste of time.


    You mean your argument right?
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    Jan 12, 2009 6:02 AM GMT
    I think the onus is on you to explain first why equating gender and race is appropriate. The same amount of similarities that exist between the races of the same gender do not exist between genders.

    As any of those differences grow more numerous your attraction is sure to dwindle more.

    For example say you are attracted to mainly mexicans males. You look at an asian male and while you are not quite as attracted to the asian male you would still rather sleep with the asian than you would an asian female who has even more differences from the mexican male than the asian male does.

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    Jan 12, 2009 6:55 AM GMT
    1. Racial preferences are inherently racist. (This doesn't mean the person with racial preferences has ill will towards races they don't find attractive)

    2. Everybody has racial preferences. (This doesn't have to mean a race is completely excluded. This means people accepting of all races still have stronger preferences for certain races)

    3. Racial preferences arise out of negative feelings towards the undesirable races.

    4. Racial matters are an integral part of humanity.

    5. When 1, 2, 3, and 4 are taken into account, then you can understand... when a community that is inhabited by every race and subject to racial ailments and most importantly, unified and defined by who they have sex with...ensues in calamity when the subject of race and sex is brought up.

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    Jan 12, 2009 7:17 AM GMT
    Just because you cannot justify your attractions doesn't prove your attractions are without justification. It could mean you lack the articulation to provide justifications.

    You've discovered a job you'd be poor at. That hardly proves that nobody could do the job.
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    Jan 12, 2009 7:25 AM GMT
    And I'll take a crack at it:

    Scientists are finding more and compelling evidence that sexual orientation is an inborn, involuntary trait. So far, nobody's found a gene that makes whites hate blacks. Although, I'm sure, there's stupid people looking for one.
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    Jan 12, 2009 7:40 AM GMT
    I've read (on the internet, of course) that with enough kool aid you can reverse your sexuality.
    (The electro-shock treatment probably helps, too.)

    If they do find the "Racist Gene", can we prohibt them from procreating?

    Is it OK if I'm only attracted to blonds?
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    Jan 12, 2009 8:19 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidI've read (on the internet, of course) that with enough kool aid you can reverse your sexuality.
    So far Ted Haggard won't say one way or the other whether Kool-Aid has been effective in quashing his sinful appetites. I'm going to wait and see on this one.
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    Jan 12, 2009 8:44 AM GMT
    Personally, I really just don't care anymore.

    Sure, there are times I wish I've been born into a race recognized more universally as attractive but I realize wishing for things like that only make life harder. I was born gay with virtually zero sexual attraction to women, that narrows my erm 'dating pool' a lot, then I was born like ~70% genetically Asian (and look like it, in contrast to my siblings), which judging from the number of 'No Asians just a preference' in profiles narrows it down even further. How many times have I read someone's profile and said to myself 'this guy sounds pretty cool' and then BEWM right at the bottom in small print 'no [race here], sorry'.

    So I say fuck it. As long as nobody disrespects me by making absurd generalizations like all [race here] are ugly/stupid/have small dicks/gold-diggers/evil etc. I don't really give a shit anymore. That's just life.

    I could no more demand everyone to like me than homophobes demand me to not be gay. Even I have racial and physical preferences.

    And yes I agree with TigerTim, comparing ethnic preferences to sexual orientation is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. They are similar, yes, but there are different factors involved. The most glaring one (as lilTanker said) being that gay men do not trivialize nor disparage their nonattraction to women, as they so often do when it comes to races; i.e. being gay doesn't automatically mean you're misogynist, while racial preference seems to be a green light for gay men to be a wee bit more cruel.
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    Jan 12, 2009 9:08 AM GMT
    What you're talking about is not logical argumentation, but instead sophistry, which is why the topic has little relevance. If one were having a logical debate (at least in a post Aristotle world of logic), she would incorporate knowledge of the topic in order to prove her argument, which would include scientific and psycho-social understandings of the subject. Otherwise, all you're engaging in is an attempt to win an argument using "logic," and that my friend is the very basis of sophistry.

    Let's use a simple example to show why your argument is sophistry.

    Suppose that a rich but weak man is murdered, and there is no one else around but a poor, strong man.

    Well, using "logic" I can argue that it's obvious that a poor man with means would want to kill a rich, weak man so as to take his money.

    But, since everyone knows that it's in the interest of most poor, strong men to kill rich, weak men for their money, why would the poor, strong man kill the rich, weak man knowing that he would be accused of the crime? Of course he wouldn't.

    See, there we have "logical" argumentation, except that it's entirely worthless as there's not actually any attempt to get at the truth, which would perhaps involve checking to see if the man has blood on his hands. It's the same for your thread. We can make all these "logical" arguments if we want, but they're nothing but sophistry if we don't incorporate readily available evidence, and thus the thread doesn't contribute any to the discourse.
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    Jan 12, 2009 9:37 AM GMT
    Yup sophistry and a topic that's been beaten to death...at the end of the day are we trying to justify guilt from having racial preferences?

    If so, then this is not a productive way to do it....everyone's got 'em...it's a very logical result from living in a pluralistic society with all kinds of races co-existing....I think the better question to ask is what racial biases do I have and are my identity politics messed up or invidious towards one group.

    Like the above posts mention, gender preferences or sexual orientation seems to be more based on genetics (so the scientists say)...vs. racial preferences which are socially conditioned...look at a sandbox full of 6 year olds, they don't discriminate on who they play with because of race.

    So yes apples and oranges...gender preference v. race preferences are 2 different categories...so whole premise of the argument (assuming that they are similar categories to make meaningful comparisons) falls apart...





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    Jan 12, 2009 9:46 AM GMT
    CitizenSol said1. Racial preferences are inherently racist. (This doesn't mean the person with racial preferences has ill will towards races they don't find attractive)

    Applied to sex:

    1. Sexual preferences are inherently sexist.


    CitizenSol said
    2. Everybody has racial preferences. (This doesn't have to mean a race is completely excluded. This means people accepting of all races still have stronger preferences for certain races)


    Applied to sex:

    2. Everybody has sexual preferences.


    CitizenSol said
    3. Racial preferences arise out of negative feelings towards the undesirable races.


    This is only true in some cases, but not all. For example, I have no negative feelings towards Russians, but I find it unattractive when they have oddly shaped heads, eyes too close to one another, and foul odor. And yes Russians have these characteristic combinations more so than any other ethnic background. Yes we can argue back and forth that there are hot Russians, you have never seen Russians like the ones I described, etc etc blah blah blah. But that doesn't change my personal experiences.

    CitizenSol said
    4. Racial matters are an integral part of humanity.


    um.....what???
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    Jan 12, 2009 9:47 AM GMT
    mickeytopogigio saidAnd I'll take a crack at it:

    Scientists are finding more and compelling evidence that sexual orientation is an inborn, involuntary trait. So far, nobody's found a gene that makes whites hate blacks. Although, I'm sure, there's stupid people looking for one.


    This thread has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with sexual ethnic preferences.
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    Jan 12, 2009 9:52 AM GMT
    blinktwice4y saidI think the onus is on you to explain first why equating gender and race is appropriate.


    Because they both deal with the inclusion vs inclusion of someone else based on their physical characteristics.

    blinktwice4y saidThe same amount of similarities that exist between the races of the same gender do not exist between genders.


    This is true given females have different levels of different hormones and one different set of chromosomes. Having said that, we expect women to be treated equally and be given every opportunity that men are given. So therefore why don't you hit on women? icon_cool.gif

    blinktwice4y saidAs any of those differences grow more numerous your attraction is sure to dwindle more.


    Yes this is true. However, while there is different physical characteristics between females and males, there are also VAST different physical characteristics among males.

    blinktwice4y said
    For example say you are attracted to mainly mexicans males. You look at an asian male and while you are not quite as attracted to the asian male you would still rather sleep with the asian than you would an asian female who has even more differences from the mexican male than the asian male does.


    Actually you are wrong. I would rather sleep with an Asian female.
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    Jan 12, 2009 10:27 AM GMT
    jakebenson said
    blinktwice4y said
    For example say you are attracted to mainly mexicans males. You look at an asian male and while you are not quite as attracted to the asian male you would still rather sleep with the asian than you would an asian female who has even more differences from the mexican male than the asian male does.


    Actually you are wrong. I would rather sleep with an Asian female.


    And the point being...?

    Actually never mind.