Michael brown incident and looting.

  • mybud

    Posts: 11819

    Aug 15, 2014 6:21 PM GMT
    I fully understand the anger associated in the death of Michael Brown, but I can't wrap my head around the looting of stores and businesses. Why would you loot businesses, most locally and most likely family owned? My father instilled in me early on, the worst thing I could ever do is steal...So, I just can't condone it now. I'd like opinions regarding this, maybe someone can explain it to me.
  • jaroslav123

    Posts: 600

    Aug 15, 2014 8:03 PM GMT
    CCTV reveals footage of a black man robbing a store, but there isn't sufficient evidence to suggest that it was Mike.

    Michael Brown was unarmed anyway, so even if it was him, he wasn't lethal in any genuine respect.

    In my view, it's just another event to add to the history of unarmed black men being shot by the police. He joins Mark Duggan et al.

    And even if one does not wish to bring race-politics into it then the following is blindingly obvious: never shoot an unarmed individual.
  • jaroslav123

    Posts: 600

    Aug 15, 2014 8:06 PM GMT
    On a sidenote: why would you steal from a store?
    Because you're poor, greedy, brainwashed by our society to believe that the only things that matter are cash and some sparkly new trainers. This is not an excuse by the way before I got some nutjob right-winger clawing my shoulders, it's an explanation, a reason.

    You convince someone for years on end via the media and by adverts and by the general zeitgeist that what is important is money and materialism, then you make it harder for that person to buy anything (due to increased poverty etc etc) then of course they're going to steal. What else does society expect? The greatest example of this was in the London riots in the UK ages ago. The only thing that bound all the looters together was the fact that they all lived in poor areas, you didn't have middle class or upper-middle class people stealing anything. This, says everything you need to know.
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    Aug 15, 2014 8:32 PM GMT
    jaroslav123, Thanks for some of the best and certainly most coherent responses to forum topics.
  • mybud

    Posts: 11819

    Aug 15, 2014 8:47 PM GMT
    I'm still not convinced that merits stealing from your own people who are small business men trying to eek out a living..But I posted this to start a discussion...Continue...
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    Aug 15, 2014 8:48 PM GMT
    Don't want to get shot at?

    Don't steal!

    A white dude would get the same treatment here.

    Just a few weeks back a guy was chased, he didn't stop and the cops shot him dead.

    CRIME needs to stop! You do it you might pay with your life.

    I am sure if he was in Russia he would have had the same treatment!!!

    Just do not be foolish!!!

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/08/15/ferguson-missouri-police-michael-brown-shooting/14098369/
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    Aug 15, 2014 8:53 PM GMT
    mybud saidI fully understand the anger associated in the death of Michael Brown, but I can't wrap my head around the looting of stores and businesses. Why would you loot businesses, most locally and most likely family owned? My father instilled in me early on, the worst thing I could ever do is steal...So, I just can't condone it now. I'd like opinions regarding this, maybe someone can explain it to me.



    Have you been to St. Louis? It's a war zone. However, this president and the last one spend trillions on wars abroad. So it totally insanity at the highest level.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 4433

    Aug 15, 2014 9:01 PM GMT
    If the guy on the tape was Michael Brown, he was being a punk and abusing the shop owner or clerk. If the cops intercepted him outside the store and was warned to stop and didn't, he was asking for it. Seems the cops should have been able to stop him short of shooting him but until we find out what happened, I'll reserve judgement. Though the actions of the local police certainly seem nasty. Even today, the tape and name of the officer was released without even notifying the Governor's man on the scene who was trying to calm the situation. They seem like a bad lot.
  • jaroslav123

    Posts: 600

    Aug 15, 2014 9:01 PM GMT
    mybud saidI'm still not convinced that merits stealing from your own people who are small business men trying to eek out a living..But I posted this to start a discussion...Continue...


    You have to understand that people are different and haven't got the ideological perspective that you have.

    Ideology as we all know is a series of ideas bound together to form a worldview - but what makes ideology more prominent is that it shapes the mechanics of our actions. You said you had a moral-upbringing from your parents, this explains why you're "not convinced". Thus you would never believe that stealing was morally correct. Whilst I'm not defending the actions of robbery, what I am saying is that people who steal from stores or who commit crimes have an entirely different perspective from you concerning the world due to situations they've experienced.

    It may be difficult for you - and indeed, me - to grasp this, but we have to understand that individual's actions are motivated and controlled by their own unique experiences in life.

    Again, this argument is always misconstrued and twisted by social-conservatives and people with Burkean-politics on the brain so I'll put this in bold for further bloody emphasis: this is not an excuse, this is an explanation.
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    Aug 15, 2014 9:11 PM GMT
    Alpha13 said
    mybud saidI fully understand the anger associated in the death of Michael Brown, but I can't wrap my head around the looting of stores and businesses. Why would you loot businesses, most locally and most likely family owned? My father instilled in me early on, the worst thing I could ever do is steal...So, I just can't condone it now. I'd like opinions regarding this, maybe someone can explain it to me.



    Have you been to St. Louis? It's a war zone. However, this president and the last one spend trillions on wars abroad. So it totally insanity at the highest level.


    SL will never be on my travel destination list. They need to get their shit together and the local community needs to reach out to their citizens and make things right. Otherwise, it will be like Detroit, Miami and others. Crime does not pay. The elites and income divide have only just seen the start of the wealth gap!
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    Aug 15, 2014 9:12 PM GMT
    There are always going to be opportunist to take advantage of a chaotic situation. We had the same thing happen in New Orleans after Katrina. People weren't taking things they needed to survive (that's somewhat forgivable) but they didn't need electronics especially when the city was without power.

    I grew up in the same society as the looters grew up in - the one that "convince[d] someone for years on end via the media [saw the same magazines and commercials] and by adverts and by the general zeitgeist that what is important is money and materialism, then you make it harder for that person to buy anything (due to increased poverty etc etc Except in my case it was my parents who said no you can't have that; we can't afford it.) then of course they're going to steal." Funny, I didn't go looting after Katrina nor did the vast majority of people - poor or not.

    People loot because they have no moral conscience beyond "what can I easily get out of this situation" Like I said, I can understand looting after a great disaster wherein your life is at stake and you are taking food, water, blankets, clothing to SURVIVE but not wholesale looting of electronics, huge flat screen TVs, etc. That's a moral failing plain pure and simple.
  • jaroslav123

    Posts: 600

    Aug 15, 2014 9:26 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidThere are always going to be opportunist to take advantage of a chaotic situation. We had the same thing happen in New Orleans after Katrina. People weren't taking things they needed to survive (that's somewhat forgivable) but they didn't need electronics especially when the city was without power.

    I grew up in the same society as the looters grew up in - the one that "convince[d] someone for years on end via the media [saw the same magazines and commercials] and by adverts and by the general zeitgeist that what is important is money and materialism, then you make it harder for that person to buy anything (due to increased poverty etc etc Except in my case it was my parents who said no you can't have that; we can't afford it.) then of course they're going to steal." Funny, I didn't go looting after Katrina nor did the vast majority of people - poor or not.

    People loot because they have no moral conscience beyond "what can I easily get out of this situation" Like I said, I can understand looting after a great disaster wherein your life is at stake and you are taking food, water, blankets, clothing to SURVIVE but not wholesale looting of electronics, huge flat screen TVs, etc. That's a moral failing plain pure and simple.


    The "well I didn't do it" argument is always brought up I find. People have entirely different approaches to morality, it's not empirical. Believe me, I don't want to take the moral-relativist approach - it's far easier to say and believe: this is right and this wrong. But if we observe our world, it is evident that it doesn't work like that. Things are far more complex. Whilst the moral-relativist approach seems harsh and cruel, it's one of the few ways to understand people's actions: they have different world views and different moralities. It's perfectly logical.
  • tbeaux

    Posts: 419

    Aug 15, 2014 9:39 PM GMT
    I live in the Saint Louis suburb of Saint Charles. It has been a nightmare ever since Sunday in Saint Louis, especially the farther north you go because of the traffic and the tension.

    I am VERY upset with how outside news sources have told this story. They have condemned our police departments. You will see images that look like the police are going no holds bar on the protestors, but they fail to show you that 30 minutes prior to this, protestors were throwing Molotov cocktails, bricks, gun shots, glass bottles, and rocks at the police. You bet your sweet ass they are going to throw tear gas and rubber bullets.

    I noticed today that on the Today Show they said we had "Peaceful Protests" last night, which I will say, we did mostly....yet they fail to mention protestors still threw bricks at policemen trying to stop a fight, gunshots, assaults, and armed robbery.

    Today, they released the officer's name (AWFUL IDEA). Anonymous has threatened to expose families and addresses..

    You also have to question why the suspected officer had trauma to his head and a swollen face, when witnesses still state there was no struggle... Well new information came out that prior to the shooting, Michael Brown was allegedly a part of a robbery, but the officer had no idea about this incident. It was told that Michael Brown assaulted the officer and reached for his gun, so the officer shot him multiple times. There are doubts of his actual surrender, and the autopsy will be the only way to know due to how the bullets are in his body.

    Allegedly, FBI has a warning out for STL because of the black panther party here inciting more violence.


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    Aug 15, 2014 9:49 PM GMT
    jaroslav123 said
    UndercoverMan saidThere are always going to be opportunist to take advantage of a chaotic situation. We had the same thing happen in New Orleans after Katrina. People weren't taking things they needed to survive (that's somewhat forgivable) but they didn't need electronics especially when the city was without power.

    I grew up in the same society as the looters grew up in - the one that "convince[d] someone for years on end via the media [saw the same magazines and commercials] and by adverts and by the general zeitgeist that what is important is money and materialism, then you make it harder for that person to buy anything (due to increased poverty etc etc Except in my case it was my parents who said no you can't have that; we can't afford it.) then of course they're going to steal." Funny, I didn't go looting after Katrina nor did the vast majority of people - poor or not.

    People loot because they have no moral conscience beyond "what can I easily get out of this situation" Like I said, I can understand looting after a great disaster wherein your life is at stake and you are taking food, water, blankets, clothing to SURVIVE but not wholesale looting of electronics, huge flat screen TVs, etc. That's a moral failing plain pure and simple.


    The "well I didn't do it" argument is always brought up I find. People have entirely different approaches to morality, it's not empirical. Believe me, I don't want to take the moral-relativist approach - it's far easier to say and believe: this is right and this wrong. But if we observe our world, it is evident that it doesn't work like that. Things are far more complex. Whilst the moral-relativist approach seems harsh and cruel, it's one of the few ways to understand people's actions: they have different world views and different moralities. It's perfectly logical.


    I also said "Nor did the VAST majority of people" not just my individual example, I'm sorry but somethings are black and white. Stealing (taking someone else's property) is wrong. It is ALWAYS wrong. It its NEVER right. Are there extenuating circumstances that make it forgivable? Of course! But looting stores because a kid was shot by the police is not one of those extenuating circumstances. Our prison system is full of people with different perspectives on a host of social issues robbery, stealing, rape, murder, etc.; however, if you don't adopt the approach to morality of the greater society you live in you just may find yourself in one of those prisons. But I'm sure you would feel that would be someone else's fault.
  • mybud

    Posts: 11819

    Aug 15, 2014 9:53 PM GMT
    jaroslav123 said
    mybud saidI'm still not convinced that merits stealing from your own people who are small business men trying to eek out a living..But I posted this to start a discussion...Continue...


    You have to understand that people are different and haven't got the ideological perspective that you have.

    Ideology as we all know is a series of ideas bound together to form a worldview - but what makes ideology more prominent is that it shapes the mechanics of our actions. You said you had a moral-upbringing from your parents, this explains why you're "not convinced". Thus you would never believe that stealing was morally correct. Whilst I'm not defending the actions of robbery, what I am saying is that people who steal from stores or who commit crimes have an entirely different perspective from you concerning the world due to situations they've experienced.

    It may be difficult for you - and indeed, me - to grasp this, but we have to understand that individual's actions are motivated and controlled by their own unique experiences in life.

    Again, this argument is always misconstrued and twisted by social-conservatives and people with Burkean-politics on the brain so I'll put this in bold for further bloody emphasis: this is not an excuse, this is an explanation.
    I came from a family of 7 children..My father was a steel worker and lost his job...We also starved and with all this..we didn't steal.
  • jaroslav123

    Posts: 600

    Aug 15, 2014 10:07 PM GMT
    mybud said
    jaroslav123 said
    mybud saidI'm still not convinced that merits stealing from your own people who are small business men trying to eek out a living..But I posted this to start a discussion...Continue...


    You have to understand that people are different and haven't got the ideological perspective that you have.

    Ideology as we all know is a series of ideas bound together to form a worldview - but what makes ideology more prominent is that it shapes the mechanics of our actions. You said you had a moral-upbringing from your parents, this explains why you're "not convinced". Thus you would never believe that stealing was morally correct. Whilst I'm not defending the actions of robbery, what I am saying is that people who steal from stores or who commit crimes have an entirely different perspective from you concerning the world due to situations they've experienced.

    It may be difficult for you - and indeed, me - to grasp this, but we have to understand that individual's actions are motivated and controlled by their own unique experiences in life.

    Again, this argument is always misconstrued and twisted by social-conservatives and people with Burkean-politics on the brain so I'll put this in bold for further bloody emphasis: this is not an excuse, this is an explanation.
    I came from a family of 7 children..My father was a steel worker and lost his job...We also starved and with all this..we didn't steal.


    As I have said: this is not an excuse, this is an explanation. It's a categorical fact that middle/upper classes don't steal in shops because they are not in poverty. Whilst not all working/lower classes steal, some do. (Again, where you grew up is only part of the life experience, there are other factors as well - including personality. Some people don't have the personality which would allow them to steal without any conscience).

    The problem with this debate as always is when people discuss crime it just flounces from people saying "well, I never stole, I don't steal" as if this is somehow an explanation or a counter-argument. Then what I will predict will happen later on is someone will say "It's always about the criminal and never the victims", nobody said it wasn't about the victims, we were merely just analysing why people become criminals. In crime we should analyse the three sides: the victim, the perpetrator, society.

    The debate around crime is always laden and filled with clich├ęs and counter-arguments and everyone gets too anecdotal and emotional. It's fear. It's The Crucible. Fear stops people from understanding events (and no I'm not saying you're irrational, I'm saying that the way the media dissect this issue is so sensationalist and so driven by emotions that the only framework and dichotomy people can discuss this from is a subjective/personal one rather than an objective/rational one). It's also a debate totally about extremes, and is always presented as such, so it pretty much becomes utterly pointless to debate it.
  • conservativej...

    Posts: 2465

    Aug 15, 2014 10:52 PM GMT
    It is remarkably easy to identify those who would under almost all circumstances coddle criminals. It would be great if they and said criminals lived miles away from all others who at least attempt to be law abiding citizens.
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    Aug 15, 2014 11:07 PM GMT
    Well, being from St. Louis and being raised in St. Louis County.. Based on my understanding of what happened and in general knowing how the people are there as well as the police.. I think both are at fault..

    It's unfortunate that a young man lost his life, there's no getting around that. But do I think it was racially motivated, absolutely not.. Yes the police force in that area is predominately white, and the citizens in that area are predominately black so it's easy to assume it's an act of racism.

    Regardless, I was raised by my mother that when an officer stops you and questions you, be as polite and respectful as possible, and if at all I feel like things weren't handled correctly, be sure to get his name, badge number or atleast be able to identify him if/her.

    That's just my $0.02 y'all have a good day.
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    Aug 15, 2014 11:08 PM GMT
    conservativejock saidIt is remarkably easy to identify those who would under almost all circumstances coddle criminals. It would be great if they and said criminals lived miles away from all others who at least attempt to be law abiding citizens.


    Ditto. People who try to rationalize criminal activity through moral relativism are usually the ones who grew up in very safe areas and never had to deal personally with scum.

    It's important to note here that a lot of robberies are accompanied by some form of assault or even murder. Poverty doesn't explain that. If that guy in the CCTV footage really is Michael Brown (and everything seems to indicate that's the case), he can be seen manhandling and intimidating an elderly man.

    Absolute filth, no sympathy on my part.
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2929

    Aug 15, 2014 11:28 PM GMT
    mybud saidI'm still not convinced that merits stealing from your own people who are small business men trying to eek out a living..But I posted this to start a discussion...Continue...


    +1

    The local population is largely Black; you're right, this makes no sense at all.
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2929

    Aug 15, 2014 11:31 PM GMT

    Have you been to St. Louis? It's a war zone. However, this president and the last one spend trillions on wars abroad. So it totally insanity at the highest level.

    This president and the last one are looting stores in St Louis? I hadn't heard.
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2929

    Aug 15, 2014 11:36 PM GMT
    conservativejock saidIt is remarkably easy to identify those who would under almost all circumstances coddle criminals. It would be great if they and said criminals lived miles away from all others who at least attempt to be law abiding citizens.


    Can you identify a few for us? From what I can see, hard-line conservatives often confuse trying to understand the origins of crime with "coddling."

    If we understand those origins, I suspect we can do more to prevent crime than simply calling in the SWAT squad and building more prisons.

    But knowing you, I suspect you weren't taking as radical a viewpoint as your post came across.
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    Aug 16, 2014 12:34 AM GMT
    Property rights and Rule of Law are held in very low esteem by the white Liberal political, media, entertainment, and academic establishments.

    Underlying message: Businesses are the enemy, in any conflict.

    Thus we see the new outlets going self-righteously apeshit over police in SWAT gear, arrests of journalists, PD which is slow to release info, etc. Of course these are legit concerns, but the media's outrage is selective and disproportionate.

    Damage to private [property? Barely mentioned, and when it is mentioned, it's an afterthought, explained away as "understanding the rage," collateral damage; the implication is that businesses should just suck it up, etc.
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2929

    Aug 16, 2014 12:37 AM GMT
    Property rights and Rule of Law are held in very low esteem by the white Liberal political, media, entertainment, and academic establishments.

    As a die-hard liberal with tons of liberal friends, I have to say, that's news to me. Maybe you paint with a rather wide partisan brush?

    I always think blanket blaming of some group one doesn't like isn't very helpful, at least in terms of suggesting a solution we can all work toward.
  • ai82

    Posts: 183

    Aug 16, 2014 1:23 AM GMT
    Sorry, but stealing, if he was stealing, does not justify murder. If so, tens of people who visit my store would be shot on a daily basis. Manhandling someone, and I have not seen the video ya'll speak of, does not justify murder. Reaching for an officers weapon does not justify murder. People make mistakes.

    Rioting is their way of speaking, is their way of expressing their anger. I saw a quote the other day that basically said riots are words for the voiceless. You have disenfranchised folks who see black kids and adults being shot and killed, in many cases with no justification, and the perps getting off for the most part. There were 2 boys in Florida, the man in New York, the young lady in a porch in somewhere like Michigan. It seems as though there is so much unjustified violence against black people. The fact is that it seems as though being black in some areas is a crime and their sick of it. I don't agree with rioting or the destruction of property, but I understand how someone might do it out of desperation.