REAL JOCK LIARS

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    Aug 18, 2014 11:21 PM GMT
    Either Real Jock members are a very select group.....or a huge group of liars LOL

    I've noticed a lot of HIV stigmatization here, so I was curious as to how many Positive Guys were on here,

    1815

    So how many say they are Negative?

    112452

    Since we have a choice of "Don't Know", where IMHO if you are Gay and "don't know" you NEED to know. NOW. There's no excuse not to know.


    All 3846 of you.



    That's 118123 with a stated HIV status, vs 377433 total members. 1815 are openly HIV on a GAY SITE, that's a mere .5%! Even of the stated HIV, HIV+ is only 1.54%. Apparently "don't know" is 2x as acceptable as an answer as Positive.

    There should be approximately 75,000 Positive Gays on here. It it the site? Is it too open? Why are people still in the closet about being POZ? As I say in my profile I'm "Unapologetically HIV Undetectable".

    It does explain how Art Deco, scruffypup, D2k and kevex can said the most vile, paranoid, unsubstantiated, lies ever made up. It goes way beyond stigmatization. Scruffypup said "I hope all HIV+ guys are not this reckless and cold blooded. I'm sick of people like the OP and that Morethanmuscle freak advocating bareback sex with positive guys. I guess they're so hungry for the next load of cum up their asses they'll do anything, including spreading bullshit articles like this promoting barebacking."
    This crap is beyond bullying. It's hostile and derogatory to a very specific group.
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    Aug 19, 2014 12:03 AM GMT
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    Aug 19, 2014 12:13 AM GMT
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    Aug 19, 2014 12:18 AM GMT
    timmm55 said
    It does explain how Art Deco, scruffypup, D2k and kevex can said [sic] the most vile, paranoid, unsubstantiated, lies ever made up. It goes way beyond stigmatization.

    Please quote me to prove that allegation. What I have objected to is to your saying that negative guys should have unprotected anal sex with poz guys who (claim to) have an undetectable viral count.

    Stigmatization? I'm one of the very few guys on this entire site who can say he knowingly & willingly partnered with a guy he knew was positive, when he himself was negative, and lived with him for years. And let that poz guy regularly top him, but with a condom. But it's ME who's stigmatizing poz guys? REALLY??? icon_eek.gif

    You are a fucking nut case. I think you need to just give it up, along with your campaign for negative men to have bareback sex, and go away. Any seconds to that?
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    Aug 19, 2014 12:18 AM GMT
    I'm hiv negative but I don't agree with anyone being derogatory about it. To my mind I'll have safe sex regardless of someone's hiv status so to me if someone is positive or not it doesn't matter. I certainly don't think it's appropriate to be horrible about hiv.
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    Aug 19, 2014 12:21 AM GMT
    dannyboyUK saidI'm hiv negative but I don't agree with anyone being derogatory about it. To my mind I'll have safe sex regardless of someone's hiv status so to me if someone is positive or not it doesn't matter. I certainly don't think it's appropriate to be horrible about hiv.

    Nor are the guys timmm55 has named like that. It's all in his twisted imagination, because we won't endorse his sick campaign for bareback sex with poz guys.
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    Aug 19, 2014 12:27 AM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    dannyboyUK saidI'm hiv negative but I don't agree with anyone being derogatory about it. To my mind I'll have safe sex regardless of someone's hiv status so to me if someone is positive or not it doesn't matter. I certainly don't think it's appropriate to be horrible about hiv.

    Nor are the guys timmm55 has named like that. It's all in his twisted imagination, because we won't endorse his sick campaign for bareback sex with poz guys.


    It was more of a general statement I haven't seen anywhere on here where you have insulted anyone with hiv.
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    Aug 19, 2014 12:30 AM GMT
    timmm55 said

    Scruffypup said "I hope all HIV+ guys are not this reckless and cold blooded. I'm sick of people like the OP and that Morethanmuscle freak advocating bareback sex with positive guys. I guess they're so hungry for the next load of cum up their asses they'll do anything, including spreading bullshit articles like this promoting barebacking."


    This crap is beyond bullying. It's hostile and derogatory to a very specific group.



    Adrien (MuchMoreThanMuscle) is a friend of ours. My s.o. and I have had him stay with us when he's in California. He's welcome anytime. Adrien is a fine friend, a great guy with the highest integrity and morals. He doesn't need to have me defend him against the irresponsible allegations said by the miscreant ScruffyPup, but I'm going on record and doing so just the same.
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    Aug 19, 2014 2:25 AM GMT
    OP, you have severe emotional issues and you really should see someone. Like ArtDeco, I had a one year relationship with someone who was HIV+. Not only that, but you'd be speechless if you knew how much money I've donated to HIV related causes. This has ZERO to do with your disease.....it is solely about your endorsement of a reckless article. And we have all seen the statements MMTM has made regarding barebacking. So you can pretend you're the victim all you want, but you're outnumbered here by people who have a conscience and know right from wrong.
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    Aug 19, 2014 5:48 AM GMT
    Im done dealing with OP and his reckless and selfish attitude.

    Undetectable viral load is STILL a risk. Use a condom always. Wait 6 month between tests before barebacking with your monogamous partner. Thats it.
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    Aug 19, 2014 1:49 PM GMT
    silver_phoenix saidIt is the responsibility of the informed individual to protect themselves. Nothing else matters.


    I understand what you're saying and I agree with you. BUT.....there are some very uninformed and naive people out there, and advocating barebacking with HIV+ guys could lead to many more guys to being infected.

    Let's face it....I've never met anyone who likes using a condom. I personally hate them, but I use them because I care more about my life than a few minutes of fleeting pleasure. People are always looking for an excuse not to use one, so spreading bullshit like this will led to many more guys with the impression they should go around fucking infected guys!
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    Aug 19, 2014 2:12 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said
    silver_phoenix saidIt is the responsibility of the informed individual to protect themselves. Nothing else matters.


    I understand what you're saying and I agree with you. BUT.....there are some very uninformed and naive people out there, and advocating barebacking with HIV+ guys could lead to many more guys to being infected.

    Let's face it....I've never met anyone who likes using a condom. I personally hate them, but I use them because I care more about my life than a few minutes of fleeting pleasure. People are always looking for an excuse not to use one, so spreading bullshit like this will led to many more guys with the impression they should go around fucking infected guys!

    + 1 thats exactly how it is
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    Aug 19, 2014 2:49 PM GMT
    silver_phoenix saidIt is the responsibility of the informed individual to protect themselves. Nothing else matters.

    A lot else does matter. But I agree with you in the sense that our practicing of Safe Sex means assuming EVERY guy is positive. And that is our own responsibility.

    That's the educational focus of the HIV/AIDS organization with which I work and support, the message they put out. Unfortunately that message isn't heard by everyone, fully comprehended, or followed.

    Therefore all gay men bear an equal responsibility to be tested regularly, and inform sex partners of their status. But of course we all know that's not gonna happen with any degree of reliability.

    For one thing, because even HE may not know his own status. The other guy thinks he's negative, he tells you he's negative, but he's not.

    He could show you the negative results of an HIV test he took THIS MORNING, and he STILL could be positive and infectious. Because the common HIV tests only report your status from about 3 to 6 months prior, never for this minute. He WAS negative 3 months ago, but what is he TODAY? Even a doctor wouldn't know this guy's status if he's been very recently infected, no such test exists.

    And if this guy has an "undetectable" viral load that still doesn't make him guaranteed non-contagious. The US CDC doesn't say that, nor advise that as safe behavior to follow. Nor does the guy know if his viral load is undetectable RIGHT NOW, when you're about to have sex with him. Unless he has a doctor and a lab standing by in the room next to you, he doesn't fucking know. Period. Nobody can.

    So all this BS about sex being safe with an undetectable poz guy is just medical talk dealing with controlled conditions. That has no application, bearing or relevance to the real world situations in which you & I actually operate. And such basic medical research shouldn't be misinterpreted to be providing guidance as to how gay men should behave sexually with each other.

    I think there's an old adage that too much information can be a dangerous thing. Especially in the hands of those who aren't smart enough to understand it. I think we've witnessed a classic example of it right here in this thread, and in a few others on this topic.
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    Aug 19, 2014 3:19 PM GMT
    To me ass is gross covered or not so don't usually bother with such threads. I thought this was going to be about all the pathological liars here, and not just here but in life.

    I wouldn't buy into any stats based on membership numbers as here are not just sock puppets but finger puppets. Many of those I've got on ignore are duplicates many times over. There's one guy on here in particular who likely has over 1000 screennames if he's got 10. That might be an exaggeration, though it might not; certainly it is not a lie. That one might not even be a terribly bad person--he actually says some smart things--just so fucking annoying with that game play. I've numerous finger puppets from various posters on ignore but I'm sure plenty get through.

    So I know for a fact that any stats based on RJ membership is bogus. Not even ballpark to attempt citing. If I was an advertiser, I'd attempt doing my research, but without even knowing the real numbers I'd discount the given numbers by at least half.

    Not being into anal, my life never really engaged what turned out to be among the most unsafe sexual practices so I hardly ever bother with HIV threads and so I'm not real familiar with most of the OP's references. But I have seen over the years some of Deco's posts and I'd find it real hard to believe that he could be characterized as being vile towards people with HIV.

    So on both stats and accusation, sorry OP, but you've just left too much room for doubt. I respectfully suggest you rethink this.
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    Aug 19, 2014 4:40 PM GMT
    theantijock said
    But I have seen over the years some of Deco's posts and I'd find it real hard to believe that he could be characterized as being vile towards people with HIV.

    So on both stats and accusation, sorry OP, but you've just left too much room for doubt. I respectfully suggest you rethink this.

    Thank you, theantijock, that was very kind of you to exonerate me from timmm's ludicrous accusations.

    While he was doing his stats, I wonder how many negative RJ members he tracked who would list as having knowingly partnered with a poz guy, and were his bottom, as I was? (With a condom, of course)

    Not too many, I would guess. I spend thousands of dollars a year of my own money, and much of my time, devoted to HIV/AIDS causes. And he dares to say that I "stigmatize" poz guys???

    Guys who are our close friends, who are our dinner guests, and we theirs, with whom we travel & vacation? And I STIGMATIZE them??? They'd probably punch his lights out if they heard him say that about me or my husband.

    As for his stats, my own RJ Profile shows no answer to the "HIV status" question for a reason. I object to it being there. Why aren't there also questions about cancer status? Or other major medical issues? Lots of them are infectious, too, STDs a real danger.

    And what purpose does that question serve? If a guy answers HIV Negative, is he being honest? Does he even really KNOW what he is? Are you going to believe a profile entry made gawd-knows how long ago, and base a hook-up on it? It's worthless.

    So that I think such a data field is misleading & dangerous. As well as prejudicial against gay men. And that's why I won't answer it, even though I am in fact negative.
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    Aug 19, 2014 6:05 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    timmm55 said
    It does explain how Art Deco, scruffypup, D2k and kevex can said [sic] the most vile, paranoid, unsubstantiated, lies ever made up. It goes way beyond stigmatization.

    Please quote me to prove that allegation. What I have objected to is to your saying that negative guys should have unprotected anal sex with poz guys who (claim to) have an undetectable viral count.

    Stigmatization? I'm one of the very few guys on this entire site who can say he knowingly & willingly partnered with a guy he knew was positive, when he himself was negative, and lived with him for years. And let that poz guy regularly top him, but with a condom. But it's ME who's stigmatizing poz guys? REALLY??? icon_eek.gif

    You are a fucking nut case. I think you need to just give it up, along with your campaign for negative men to have bareback sex, and go away. Any seconds to that?


    No should, nobody has to do anything with anybody. 1st lie.

    That has been your incorrect argument all along. You are quite comfortable in your hole of delusion. I'll repeat if for anyone else.....you never seem to get it!

    Read the Partners Study. No cases of HIV Transmission. ZERO. Read about "Treatment as Prevention" as recommended by the CDC, WHO, NY State, China, and Dr. Fauci (who you lied about several times, called him a hack and a Republican shill) 2nd lie. Read my other 90 90 90 post. Undetectable is the cornerstone to eliminating HIV. 53% of Gay Men don't use condoms. 47% do, which is great. But telling 53% over and over again isn't working.

    3rd lie. You lied about your dead ex. You said he had HIV, not AIDS, he came down with a rare infection that only affects people with a severely compromised immune system. All to insist HIV+ people can come down with anything at anytime, even with good T-cells and good blood work...as you said he did. Medically impossible. Only later in another thread did you say he died of AIDS. Yet you only realize this now, 10 years later?

    You've lied, distorted the truth, and made several derogatorily comments about me in every thread!

    Yes stigmatizing. Just like Larry Kramer calls Gay Men on PrEP "Truvada Whores" you degenerate anyone who reduces their risk by choosing anything BUT condoms. That's where you wash your hands of the other 53%. Your compassion seems to run out for people who don't agree with you. "Treatment as Prevention" and 90 90 90 doesn't do that. It includes everybody.

    Yet with condom use down, "Treatment as Prevention" HAS already made a significant reduction of HIV transmissions. With 25% of HIV+/undetectable people there has, for the first time ever, been a 30% reduction in new HIV cases. "Just Use a Condom" while great advice, has never worked for the eradication of HIV/AIDS.

    I posted the "Fuck POZ Guys!" (funny and Ironic to me) thread because it was a NEGATIVE man's method of rate reduction. NOT MINE. He's an adult, he can make his own decisions. But he isn't crazy or dangerous, to himself or others. As I've noted before Undetectable has less of a risk factor than condoms. It's working for him, he's still NEGATIVE. Unlike the 7000 new infections of young gays....who are the least likely to have medical care, much less to be on antivirals. Less likely to use condoms (apparently), more likely to serosort (HIV- clean?). These are the "Don't Knows" which I think is the real problem of HIV transmission today. Some of it is willful ignorance, but an HIV- person can become POZ and not know it, even if tested yesterday. Only a very few people have intentionally passed on HIV. There are psychopaths everywhere, but rare.

    I find it unlikely that a POZ-detectable person would lie about being Undetectable. I honestly think if the "I Don't Know"s were tested and came out POZ they wouldn't be spreading HIV. Hopefully they would get on antivirals and become part of the solution and not the problem.

    When I posted "Beyond "Poz" and "Neg": Five HIV Statuses, Plus a New One"
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/renato-barucco/beyond-poz-and-neg-five-h_b_5039729.html
    I thought it illuminating. Worthy of discussion. But instead it became "my agenda" from people like you.
    If I was still negative I'd be scared of the following:
    "I'm HIV negative." (Or at least he thinks he is).
    Some of the "neg" guys out there belong to this troublesome group. At some point they tested negative for HIV. Months or even years later they believe their status hasn't changed. They proudly assert it left and right. They may even have condomless sex with other self-proclaimed "neg" men (a harm reduction technique called sero-sorting). Sexually active people who uses condoms inconsistently and don't test for HIV regularly cannot call themselves HIV negative. Many may be uninfected indeed, yet among them there are those who belong to the 20 percent of folks unaware of there their HIV positive status. The lack of knowledge laying on a faulty sense of awareness is an aggravating issue for this group."

    Sruffasshole doesn't know shit, I'm not a bottom for one. Just for the record, I date other POZ/undetectable or PrEP guys. I wouldn't date a NEG guy, too many litigious bitches out there. Even though HIV/undetectable is being decriminalized in most places, recommended by the Department of Justice
    http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/Lambda-Stop-HIV-based-prosecutions-due-to-DOJ-guidance/48510.html
  • jaroslav123

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    Aug 19, 2014 6:20 PM GMT
    timmm55 saidEither Real Jock members are a very select group.....or a huge group of liars LOL

    I've noticed a lot of HIV stigmatization here, so I was curious as to how many Positive Guys were on here,

    1815

    So how many say they are Negative?

    112452

    Since we have a choice of "Don't Know", where IMHO if you are Gay and "don't know" you NEED to know. NOW. There's no excuse not to know.


    All 3846 of you.



    That's 118123 with a stated HIV status, vs 377433 total members. 1815 are openly HIV on a GAY SITE, that's a mere .5%! Even of the stated HIV, HIV+ is only 1.54%. Apparently "don't know" is 2x as acceptable as an answer as Positive.

    There should be approximately 75,000 Positive Gays on here. It it the site? Is it too open? Why are people still in the closet about being POZ? As I say in my profile I'm "Unapologetically HIV Undetectable".

    It does explain how Art Deco, scruffypup, D2k and kevex can said the most vile, paranoid, unsubstantiated, lies ever made up. It goes way beyond stigmatization. Scruffypup said "I hope all HIV+ guys are not this reckless and cold blooded. I'm sick of people like the OP and that Morethanmuscle freak advocating bareback sex with positive guys. I guess they're so hungry for the next load of cum up their asses they'll do anything, including spreading bullshit articles like this promoting barebacking."
    This crap is beyond bullying. It's hostile and derogatory to a very specific group.


    Don't get how you can call Art_Deco paranoid or stigmatising - he's one of the most honest, genuine and sincere members on this site. Kevex - oh certainly, he seems to post bitterness as far as I can tell. You also miss out Jockfever - a man who's political-leanings I respectfully disagree but exorcises and presents them in an unironically arrogant manner (anyone who called Barrack Obama, "Maobama", and thinks it's witty and satirical should be viewed through a lens of disdain and mockery).

    Aside from that, it's also none of your business who on this site has HIV or not, and whether they consensually choose to bareback or not.
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    Aug 19, 2014 6:39 PM GMT
    theantijock said

    I hardly ever bother with HIV threads and so I'm not real familiar with most of the OP's references. But I have seen over the years some of Deco's posts and I'd find it real hard to believe that he could be characterized as being vile towards people with HIV.

    So on both stats and accusation, sorry OP, but you've just left too much room for doubt. I respectfully suggest you rethink this.


    Then you haven't read his comments about HIV/undetectable "Treatment as Prevention" then have you????

    Art Deco will tell you a million times over what a great guys he is. Beware. Actually I've agreed with him on many things.....socially, relationships, but his medical observations are still in the 90s and he would never come out of it.

    Yes, this a VERY UNFRIENDLY place to be HIV+, detectable or undetectable. Most here don't know the difference. That I've been accused of trying to spread HIV, being undetectable is ridiculous from a medical standpoint and insulting on a personal level.

    There are about three POZ people on here that take the brunt of the stigmatizing because we are vocal. I've received a few messages from other down low POZ guys thanking me for sticking up for the truth and against HIV discrimination.

    That twice as many people (still a small minority) would rather say they "don't know" is illuminating. THEY are statistically the most likely to be transmitting HIV.

    The raw numbers don't mean much, other than to illustrate the lack of HIV+ admitted people on here....a GAY site! If an HIV+ person read the hateful comments, ignorance and misplaced blame I wouldn't blame them for NOT disclosing on here.

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    Aug 19, 2014 6:49 PM GMT
    Hell no. You're using Art Deco as a scapegoat. Pure fictitious character assassination. No one believes your ridiculous accusations. What have you done for the gay community lately?

    The profile designation here of hiv status is meaningless. And so is your mean-spirited, bizarre and without any basis in fact thread.

    We've gone from Mrs. Bucket to villianization of one of the best men on here.

    Go peddle your soap elsewhere. No one is buying.
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    Aug 19, 2014 6:51 PM GMT
    timmm55 saidYes, this a VERY UNFRIENDLY place to be HIV+, detectable or undetectable.

    I rather suspect that the world at large is an unfriendly place for those things.

    Back when I went celibate, in the 1980s, if you became HIV+ it was a death sentence. To some extent they could treat some of the opportunistic infections but in the end you always died. And for quite a while it wasn't clearly understood how HIV was transmitted and that using a condom was essentially all that was necessary to prevent infection. In those days you couldn't be "blamed" for catching HIV because we didn't know. Those guys are all dead. But these days anyone who is HIV+ caught it after it was known that using a condom prevented it. So unfairly or not, they are stigmatized.
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    Aug 19, 2014 7:01 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]jaroslav123 said
    Don't get how you can call Art_Deco paranoid or stigmatising - he's one of the most honest, genuine and sincere members on this site. Kevex - oh certainly, he seems to post bitterness as far as I can tell. You also miss out Jockfever - a man who's political-leanings I respectfully disagree but exorcises and presents them in an unironically arrogant manner (anyone who called Barrack Obama, "Maobama", and thinks it's witty and satirical should be viewed through a lens of disdain and mockery).

    Aside from that, it's also none of your business who on this site has HIV or not, and whether they consensually choose to bareback or not. [/quote]

    It is. When there is a dearth of a HIV people on here, as I am.

    It isn't my business if someone barebacks or not I agree, tell that to Art Deco!


    Here's where Art Deco calls anyone who is HIV+/undetectable a MENACE:

    Art_Deco said.... if I knew about a man like that I would report him to the health authorities. That would be saving other lives. Hate to sound so Right Wing and Conservative (me of all people) but there's a greater good involved here. Your friend, as you describe him, is a health menace. He should be stopped.



    What you consistently fail to understand is that ART Therapy and PrEP are for the public good (and the HIV person's health too)! If he has been consistently undetectable for 6 months his chance of transmitting HIV is probably "ZERO". PrEP is proactive for HIV-. If everyone was on either of the two there wouldn't be any new HIV cases.

    He may be a slut, but he's not spreading HIV. He isn't a menace. No one is going to die from his lack of HIV transmission. That you think condoms are the only way to save lives, and people on ART are a "menace" says you are totally out of touch with modern medicine. The thing he needs to worry about is the other STDs.

    I did call the Riverside County Health Department. They don't verify someone's HIV status one way or the other. She said if there was a complaint they would call and do counseling. It's been a he said/he said situation they stay out of. It becomes a legal matter. To which I refer you to the Rhodes/Iowa case where HIV+ UNDETECTABLE is being decriminalized.
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    Aug 19, 2014 7:05 PM GMT
    Making claims that someone lied about an ex who is now dead is totally wrong. You don't know anyone on here enough to say that and you could really hurt people making claims like that!
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    Aug 19, 2014 7:08 PM GMT
    timmm55 saidEither Real Jock members are a very select group.....or a huge group of liars LOL

    I've noticed a lot of HIV stigmatization here, so I was curious as to how many Positive Guys were on here,

    1815

    So how many say they are Negative?

    112452

    Since we have a choice of "Don't Know", where IMHO if you are Gay and "don't know" you NEED to know. NOW. There's no excuse not to know.


    All 3846 of you.



    That's 118123 with a stated HIV status, vs 377433 total members. 1815 are openly HIV on a GAY SITE, that's a mere .5%! Even of the stated HIV, HIV+ is only 1.54%. Apparently "don't know" is 2x as acceptable as an answer as Positive.

    There should be approximately 75,000 Positive Gays on here. It it the site? Is it too open? Why are people still in the closet about being POZ? As I say in my profile I'm "Unapologetically HIV Undetectable".



    ^^^^^EVERYTHING YOU WROTE ABOVE would have been great for starting a discussion on why more guys don't disclose their hiv positive status.

    You make a good point about the statistical improbability of
    so few guys reporting honestly.

    BUT that last paragraph was a distraction from this more interesting topic.

    Some guys here are assholes---but you've mostly named the wrong ones.
    Except for kevex who is going through an annoying phase.
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    Aug 19, 2014 7:14 PM GMT
    bon_pan saidHell no. You're using Art Deco as a scapegoat. Pure fictitious character assassination. No one believes your ridiculous accusations. What have you done for the gay community lately?

    The profile designation here of hiv status is meaningless. And so is your mean-spirited, bizarre and without any basis in fact thread.

    We've gone from Mrs. Bucket to villianization of one of the best men on here.

    Go peddle your soap elsewhere. No one is buying.


    +1 He's just bitter because of his shitty decisions that got him infected. Nobody gives a fuck unckabasa. Nobody will bareback you. Sorry no sorry.
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    Aug 19, 2014 7:16 PM GMT
    I did not populate that because I am not on here looking to date/have sex. Although possibly in the minority, I suspect I am not alone.