Effeminate men are brave.

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    Aug 27, 2014 5:53 AM GMT
    So after talking to a guy online for about 4 months i met him and he's kinda an effeminate type of guy.. Very nice guy and has a sassy personality haha..

    im still in the closet but ive made great strides in the last year.. telling one of my sisters for the first time (she had no clue) xP and i feel like many people that r stil in the closet are scared to do things just so people dont question their sexuality. That fear of having being asked "are you gay" wen ur still closeted is scary.. n effeminate men are just being who they are. They dont try to act in the ways of wat is considered "masculine" but rather freely express themselves.

    I applaud effeminate guys for their bravery in that sense. Often facing more discrimination in school than most closeted gay guys that are cautiously trying to act more masculine to conceal their sexuality. I hope to break free from these chains of wat is taught to us from a young age that men must act a certain way. Wen someone says "Big boys dont cry" .. well screw that ima cry if i want to lol..icon_cool.gif heres a video that i found that kinda convinced me to make this post.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGU8B2wm-r0
  • jeepguySD

    Posts: 651

    Aug 27, 2014 11:09 AM GMT
    I think there's a flaw in the premise. The OP implies that masculine gay men are only acting masculine. The fact is, some gay men are naturally masculine, and as such, they too are just being who they are -- naturally.

    It has nothing to do with courage at all. I do concede that effeminate men might be easier targets for taunting, but again, that does not make them any more or less courageous than any other man.

  • Aug 27, 2014 12:22 PM GMT
    Aside from all the things we 'think' we know about gay men, why would you think some gay men are acting masculine?

    Personally, I'm naturally this way (rugged jock type) and have no problem letting others know my sexuality if they were to ask. And I'm attracted to more masculine men because that is what I have a preference (I'm a gay masculine man, therefore I look for the same qualities). What's really troubling is that I've had some effeminate gay men act masculine simply to match my desires. That isn't bravery, it's betrayal to self.

    Besides, bravery comes in all forms. They're probably are brave for the reasons you've stated. However, it doesn't make them anymore important than a masculine lesbian, an effeminate lesbian or...me.
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    Aug 27, 2014 1:13 PM GMT
    Uh? Im not effeminate and everybody knows im gay, my entire family and every single coworker. Being gay does not mean you have to match a stereotype. If you want to be more effeminate go ahead who cares, but stop saying that non effeminate gay guys are trying to hide something, thats just retarded. If you feel like you are repressing your effeminate self then I hope you figure out how to be urself but dont assume that others are the same way.
  • FuerteC

    Posts: 588

    Aug 27, 2014 1:15 PM GMT
    I thought this guy was gay because he was effeminate. The way his hips move. He was straight. He is married.

    Some masculine guys are gay.
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    Aug 27, 2014 1:40 PM GMT
    If I am understanding the OP correctly, what he is saying is that guys who can "pass" have a choice whether or not to let people know about their attraction to men, whereas a more effeminate guy is more likely to be pegged as gay regardless what he claims.

    I don't really know if bravery factors into it, except that everyday life might bring a greater chance of having strangers give you a hard time. If you go about your life and don't let that stop you, maybe that's brave, IDK.

    And I +1 the comment that there are guys all over the attraction scale who are also all over the presentation scale. I also know married guys with kids who you might peg as fem, but who don't seem to be hiding any attraction to men. They're just being themselves.
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    Aug 27, 2014 1:42 PM GMT
    The OP brings up good points about the importance of being yourself. I have known some tough femmy guys who would stand up to anyone, so he is correct that fem does not mean wimp. It is true also that gays who naturally act more effeminate may go through a phase of trying to suppress their more feminine behavior. However, he might want to clarify that he was in no way suggesting that gays who are naturally more masculine are somehow playacting.
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    Aug 27, 2014 1:42 PM GMT
    As I first said here, on RJ, on April 17, 2010 (http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/911416):

    "Being yourself despite great personal risk - it doesn't get butcher than that."
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    Aug 27, 2014 1:47 PM GMT
    jeepguySD saidI think there's a flaw in the premise. The OP implies that masculine gay men are only acting masculine. The fact is, some gay men are naturally masculine, and as such, they too are just being who they are -- naturally.

    It has nothing to do with courage at all. I do concede that effeminate men might be easier targets for taunting, but again, that does not make them any more or less courageous than any other man.

    I agree with much of this. I would also suggest that fems might appear braver within their context.

    It's like the optical illusion eye tricks that get published, where objects are made to appear different sizes when they're all really the same. One doesn't expect a fem to be brave, so any signs of bravery become larger than they may really be.

    At the same time, I've said here a number of times that MOST gay men are braver than we're assumed to be, whether fem OR masculine. Even we often don't recognize it in ourselves.

    As I've written here before, in a crisis I'd rather have a gay man by my side than most straight ones. And not just to hold my hand. I'm talking about being calm & controlled under pressure, despite the assumption we'll all squeal like little girls and start panicking & crying. It's actually the opposite in my experience, which as many of you know is rather substantial in this regard.

    So don't sell yourselves short. Whether fem or masculine, you're actually braver and more competent under fire than you realize. And a lot tougher in other ways, too, than just issues of courage.
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    Aug 27, 2014 2:12 PM GMT
    charlitos saidUh? Im not effeminate and everybody knows im gay, my entire family and every single coworker. Being gay does not mean you have to match a stereotype. If you want to be more effeminate go ahead who cares, but stop saying that non effeminate gay guys are trying to hide something, thats just retarded. If you feel like you are repressing your effeminate self then I hope you figure out how to be ya urself but dont assume that others are the same way.


    +1

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    Aug 27, 2014 2:33 PM GMT
    keho92 saidSo after talking to a guy online for about 4 months i met him and he's kinda an effeminate type of guy.. Very nice guy and has a sassy personality haha..

    im still in the closet but ive made great strides in the last year.. telling one of my sisters for the first time (she had no clue) xP and i feel like many people that r stil in the closet are scared to do things just so people dont question their sexuality. That fear of having being asked "are you gay" wen ur still closeted is scary.. n effeminate men are just being who they are. They dont try to act in the ways of wat is considered "masculine" but rather freely express themselves.

    I applaud effeminate guys for their bravery in that sense. Often facing more discrimination in school than most closeted gay guys that are cautiously trying to act more masculine to conceal their sexuality. I hope to break free from these chains of wat is taught to us from a young age that men must act a certain way. Wen someone says "Big boys dont cry" .. well screw that ima cry if i want to lol..icon_cool.gif heres a video that i found that kinda convinced me to make this post.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGU8B2wm-r0


    I know two effeminate gay guys who are in the closet...
    'gurl, i,m just greek that's why I act metrosexual'
    Yeah, OK LOL
    You're being an idiot. I'm relatively masculine and I'm out.
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    Aug 27, 2014 3:02 PM GMT
    I understand exactly what the OP is saying and I do believe effeminate gay men are courageous. It takes courage to get up out of bed everyday and face a world, despite all the acceptance of diversity BS talk, that ridicules them, bullies them, shuns them, etc. because they don't fit the mold or play the role men are suppose to play and it starts as soon as the other kids on the school grounds notice they are different and follows them their ENTIRE lives. Butch lesbians have it a bit easier because tomboys are generally accepted by society at large and respect a woman who is handy with power tools.

    While I am not the most masculine man in two shoes, I was enough to "pass," and I was very cautious in my words, deeds and actions not to give myself away, and I will never believe that any "masculine" gay man hasn't done the same in his younger days before full self acceptance and will continue to do his entire life in subtle ways. Hell, it's hard enough as a gay man (masculine or feminine) to accept ones self. It is all the more difficult to be comfortable with the fact that others know.

    If masculine gay man are truly honest with themselves they would readily admit that there have been times they may not have bought a particular item of clothing they really like because it "looked gay," or they won't admit to liking a particular entertainer because that person is associated with "gay culture," or they won't go to certain places, even though they really would like to, because they are perceived as "gay places." That is what I define as ACTING masculine.

    If your favorite colors are black, brown, grey, and navy blue (when feeling a tad adventurous), or you really like homophobic, misogynous rap, and you'd really rather go camping and back country hiking, THAT'S FINE! But you will never get me to believe there wasn't a single solitary moment in your life you didn't check yourself for fear you would be perceived as "gay."

    "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts... As You Like It Act 2, scene 7, 139–143, William Shakespeare
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    Aug 27, 2014 3:12 PM GMT
    I grew up on the butch side but never thought twice about expressing my feelings or pretty much any of my preferences but for sex while I was closeted.

    The only thing I ever acted about was changing pronouns, avoiding topics or purposely redirecting conversation away from sexuality. I never altered my personality. I still don't even if people don't like me. I didn't give a shit then either.

    I wasn't into sports and never tried to fake that, losing my summer camp team color war points when I didn't show up for a softball game, that just became a local joke. No one ever said anything to me about being gay because of it.

    My friends growing up liked me enough to remain my friends 50 years later and all but one of them is str8 though comfortable with my sexuality. A group of them did question my sexuality I think when we were about 15 or 16, approaching one particular friend about it who proudly to this day brags about how he "defended my honor" by denying my being gay even though by then he thought so too. So funny. I never had to "act" butch; I'm from Jersey.

    On the bravery front, what's more brave, an effeminate man being openly gay (don't forget, they can be str8 too) or a masculine man coming out as gay? Is either brave or is one merely finding a way to live in the situation he finds himself and the other merely finding a way of ending the pain of the closet?
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    Aug 27, 2014 3:16 PM GMT
    hooray for stereotypes and generalizations!!!

    trash...
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    Aug 27, 2014 3:40 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan said
    "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts... As You Like It Act 2, scene 7, 139–143, William Shakespeare

    I love a man who quotes Shakespeare! And yeah, I had to do that playacting, all through my career.

    Not that I thought I appeared gay, but rather, not butch enough for that field. Trying to add masculinity for its own sake, not to hide femininity. But still, doing masculine playacting, which is the point here.

    And also, the image of The Leader. Looking in charge, giving orders, appearing self-assured. It was my job, so I played that part, too, very consciously.

    Someone I know said to me last month: "You're always acting, aren't you? Always on and performing."

    I had to admit I was. I explained it as a consequence of my Theatre Degree. But it's a lot more than that. I was acting for 25 years to keep my career going. And to attract and keep friends, as unsure of my natural personality as of my professional skills. I guess it's too late to stop doing it now. icon_redface.gif
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    Aug 27, 2014 3:48 PM GMT
    "Effeminate men are braver than most."

    ∆ Dumbest statement ever.

    You know who the bravest gay men are? It's the naturally masculine gay men who CHOOSE to be out on a daily basis. These are the men who could easily hide it if they chose to, but don't. Effeminate men have no choice in the matter because people know their gay from a block away. How is that bravery if you're not choosing to be out? I'm sure there are many brave effeminate men but to say they're brave just by being fem is retarded.
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    Aug 27, 2014 4:11 PM GMT
    silver_phoenix saidThis is a tired Social Justice Warriors meme dragged out all the time by those with a chip on their shoulder about the minority masculine gay men being "traitors" or "oppressors" because they are attracted to other masculine men instead of hello kitty pink panties.icon_twisted.gif

    ^+1 One of several, I might add. "We're a rainbow," remember?
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    Aug 27, 2014 4:22 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said"Effeminate men are braver than most."

    ∆ Dumbest statement ever.

    You know who the bravest gay men are? It's the naturally masculine gay men who CHOOSE to be out on a daily basis. These are the men who could easily hide it if they chose to, but don't. Effeminate men have no choice in the matter because people know their gay from a block away. How is that bravery if you're not choosing to be out? I'm sure there are many brave effeminate men but to say they're brave just by being fem is retarded.


    Well said
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    Aug 27, 2014 4:22 PM GMT
    Scruffy, how many gay kids kill themselves each year because of bullying? They aren't being bullied because they are the star quarterback or captain of the basketball team who happens to be gay. They are bullied because they are readily identified as gay and more often than not effeminate and considered weaker. I don't mean camping it up effeminate just smaller framed, non athletic, or speak naturally with that stereotypical gay speech. They aren't acting; they are just being themselves. It's who they are. And yes, for most of their lives, getting out of bed and facing a world that teases, torments, devalues, and humiliates them every single day of their lives must be an awful challenge. So for the ones who don't kill themselves, everyday is a challenge to be faced with courage and bravery. Why do you think the "It Gets Better" campaign was started?

    Sadly they are often tormented by closeted "masculine" gays too afraid to protect them for fear of appearing gay themselves.

    EDIT: And so the fuck what if some effeminate gays camp it up? Does that give anyone else the right to make their lives a living Hell? No don't think so.
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    Aug 27, 2014 4:29 PM GMT
    JuanPablomv89 said
    Art_Deco said
    UndercoverMan said
    "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts... As You Like It Act 2, scene 7, 139–143, William Shakespeare

    I love a man who quotes Shakespeare! And yeah, I had to do that playacting, all through my career.

    Not that I thought I appeared gay, but rather, not butch enough for that field. Trying to add masculinity for its own sake, not to hide femininity. But still, doing masculine playacting, which is the point here.

    And also, the image of The Leader. Looking in charge, giving orders, appearing self-assured. It was my job, so I played that part, too, very consciously.

    Someone I know said to me last month: "You're always acting, aren't you? Always on and performing."

    I had to admit I was. I explained it as a consequence of my Theatre Degree. But it's a lot more than that. I was acting for 25 years to keep my career going. And to attract and keep friends, as unsure of my natural personality as of my professional skills. I guess it's too late to stop doing it now. icon_redface.gif


    Not all lie and cheat pretending being somebody else, excuses and justifications are always going to be the lack of responsability of the actions


    You are only 25 years old. You didn't grow up in a world where homosexuality was considered a mental condition, where you could be thrown in jail for "crimes against nature," where you were actively targeted by the vice squad and your bars and night clubs raided. Many "lied and cheated, pretending being somebody else" in order to survive in a hostile world. Educate yourself before judging.
  • killercliche

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    Aug 27, 2014 4:39 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan said
    If your favorite colors are black, brown, grey, and navy blue (when feeling a tad adventurous), or you really like homophobic, misogynous rap,


    That has nothing to do with being masculine and everything to do with being inhibited/boring.

    Back on topic: It's impossible to present an opinion relating to this thread because the premise is so generalized and stupid that any opining directed squarely back at the thread topic would make the poster seem nearly as stupid.
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    Aug 27, 2014 4:49 PM GMT
    No they aren't braver. They just stand out like a sore thumb so are forced to come out. Masculine gay men are not acting masculine. They're just being who they are as well.
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    Aug 27, 2014 4:53 PM GMT
    killercliche said
    UndercoverMan said
    If your favorite colors are black, brown, grey, and navy blue (when feeling a tad adventurous), or you really like homophobic, misogynous rap,


    That has nothing to do with being masculine and everything to do with being inhibited/boring.

    Back on topic: It's impossible to present an opinion relating to this thread because the premise is so generalized and stupid that any opining directed squarely back at the thread topic would make the poster seem nearly as stupid.


    Did I say it had anything to do with being masculine? No, but many men feel uncomfortable wearing colors other than drab black, brown, or grey. I remember my dad telling the story of how back in the 1950s he bought a pair of light blue pants. When he brought them home his sister (He was living with her because his mother had died. His sister was 15 years older than he and married.) took the pants and shredded them and told him men did not wear that color. Now I know that view is not widely held today but the fact remains many men feel uncomfortable in a colorful wardrobe and stick to black, brown, grey, and navy blue and view anything else as too fashionable and showy.
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    Aug 27, 2014 4:54 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidScruffy, how many gay kids kill themselves each year because of bullying? They aren't being bullied because they are the star quarterback or captain of the basketball team who happens to be gay. They are bullied because they are readily identified as gay and more often than not effeminate and considered weaker. I don't mean camping it up effeminate just smaller framed, non athletic, or speak naturally with that stereotypical gay speech. They aren't acting; they are just being themselves. It's who they are. And yes, for most of their lives, getting out of bed and facing a world that teases, torments, devalues, and humiliates them every single day of their lives must be an awful challenge. So for the ones who don't kill themselves, everyday is a challenge to be faced with courage and bravery. Why do you think the "It Gets Better" campaign was started?

    Sadly they are often tormented by closeted "masculine" gays too afraid to protect them for fear of appearing gay themselves.

    EDIT: And so the fuck what if some effeminate gays camp it up? Does that give anyone else the right to make their lives a living Hell? No don't think so.


    Your response puzzles me. I agree with everything you said, so I don't see how that contradicts anything I said. And no one said anything about "camping it up."
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    Aug 27, 2014 5:03 PM GMT
    ^^ Then you do agree effeminate gay men have to have a bit of courage to face such a hostile environment.

    And I didn't intend to insinuate the "camping it up" came from you. It was just something I thought of after my original comment because I got to thinking there are some out there that think they deserve what they get because they are camping it up. My comment was meant to convey that everyone has the right to define themselves however they want without having to face the bigotry of others and that the problem is not with them but the bigots who believe everyone has to conform to their ideal of what a man is or a woman is.