Perceptions about HIV

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    Sep 02, 2014 12:54 AM GMT
    a willful disregard for evidence-based, scientific information that more likely has its roots in HIV stigma,

    We have come a long way in the science of HIV since Lawrence Altman’s 1981 New York Times article about what would come to be understood as HIV/AIDS, “Rare Cancer Seen in 41 Homosexuals.” What was once largely regarded as a virtual death sentence with no viable, long-term treatment is now a manageable chronic disease when diagnosed early.

    We now know that early, effective anti-retroviral (ARV) treatment can keep HIV-positive persons “undetectable” (i.e., virally suppressed, with fewer than 50 copies/ml of HIV detected in the blood) and healthy. And we also know today that reaching and maintaining undetectable status through effective ARV treatment makes HIV-positive persons virtually unable to pass on HIV to anyone else, a scientific finding that has come to be known as “treatment as prevention.”

    http://www.housingworks.org/advocate/detail/throwback-thursday-infographics-much-cause-for-optimism-but-some-old-myths/
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    Sep 02, 2014 12:57 AM GMT
    You're trying too hard Timmm. Fuckin HIV+ men without condom IS a risk, even when they're undetectable.

    And how do you even know if they're undetectable anyways? You can't know any more than you know a guy is truly neg.

    Be safe people, use a condom always.

    Timm stop trying to convince people to bareback with HIV+ guys. in a community where HIV keeps spreading suggesting to do such thing only shows how fucked up and selfish you are. You got infected now deal with it, don't try to drag uninformed people with you.

    http://americablog.com/2013/07/safe-sex-necessary-undetectable-hiv-viral-load.html
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    Sep 02, 2014 1:16 AM GMT
    As I browse through profiles on smartphone apps, it really pains me to see 18, 19, and 20-something year old guys that are HIV+ so early in their lives. Obviously, they were misinformed or someone lied to them.
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    Sep 02, 2014 1:23 AM GMT
    xrichx saidAs I browse through profiles on smartphone apps, it really pains me to see 18, 19, and 20-something year old guys that are HIV+ so early in their lives. Obviously, they were misinformed or someone lied to them.


    Thats why I always try to post a reasonable reply right after Timmm's. Too many young misinformed people read these forums and Timm's threads and posts are wrong, disturbing and certainly don't help to stop the increasing HIV infections among gay men.
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    Sep 02, 2014 1:32 AM GMT
    icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Sep 02, 2014 2:00 AM GMT
    I see the hen's are a clucking!

    That's why I started it with "a willful disregard for evidence-based, scientific information that more likely has its roots in HIV stigma,"

    Treatment as Prevention isn't about BB. But that's your illogical take on it.

    If you have a problem with it, take it up with the Advocate or any of the other organizations. Science is trying to make the world a safer place, but your reliance on stigma is willful.
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    Sep 02, 2014 2:07 AM GMT
    xrichx saidAs I browse through profiles on smartphone apps, it really pains me to see 18, 19, and 20-something year old guys that are HIV+ so early in their lives. Obviously, they were misinformed or someone lied to them.


    Most likely from someone who didn't get tested recently and assumed they were still negative from a test 2 years ago.
  • Rhi_Bran

    Posts: 904

    Sep 02, 2014 2:18 AM GMT

    We now know that early, effective anti-retroviral (ARV) treatment can keep HIV-positive persons “undetectable” (i.e., virally suppressed, with fewer than 50 copies/ml of HIV detected in the blood) and healthy. And we also know today that reaching and maintaining undetectable status through effective ARV treatment makes HIV-positive persons virtually unable to pass on HIV to anyone else, a scientific finding that has come to be known as “treatment as prevention.”


    "Undetectable" doesn't mean there is no virus in bodily fluids, just not enough for it to be consistently reactive with modern tests. However, even "undetectable" folk can still pass the virus through unsafe sex. All it can take is a few successful virus units. The chances are lower, but they are there all the same.

    In addition, "treatment as prevention" really only applies if people who engage in unsafe sexual practices get tested regularly, and if those who are recently infected are able to alert anyone that they could possibly have infected. As it is, many HIV infections go unnoticed and untreated until the latent stage, so not much prevention is coming from treatment at this point.

    Prevention lies in not having unsafe sex with HIV+ people. Period. There is literally no sane reason to have unsafe sex with anyone whose status you don't know. That isn't me or anyone else being callous. That's not stigma. That's just common sense.
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    Sep 02, 2014 2:27 AM GMT
    timmm55 said
    xrichx saidAs I browse through profiles on smartphone apps, it really pains me to see 18, 19, and 20-something year old guys that are HIV+ so early in their lives. Obviously, they were misinformed or someone lied to them.


    Most likely from someone who didn't get tested recently and assumed they were still negative from a test 2 years ago.


    Or most likely from reading resentful pricks on internet talking non-stop about how "safe" it is to bareback with HIV infected people.

    I repeat: dont trust a guy saying "Im HIV+ poz but undetectable" any more than you would trust a guy saying "Im neg". You dont know other people statuses so take care of yourselves and use a condom always, that's it.
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    Sep 02, 2014 2:44 AM GMT
    timmm55 saida willful disregard for evidence-based, scientific information that more likely has its roots in HIV stigma,

    We have come a long way in the science of HIV since Lawrence Altman’s 1981 New York Times article about what would come to be understood as HIV/AIDS, “Rare Cancer Seen in 41 Homosexuals.” What was once largely regarded as a virtual death sentence with no viable, long-term treatment is now a manageable chronic disease when diagnosed early.

    We now know that early, effective anti-retroviral (ARV) treatment can keep HIV-positive persons “undetectable” (i.e., virally suppressed, with fewer than 50 copies/ml of HIV detected in the blood) and healthy. And we also know today that reaching and maintaining undetectable status through effective ARV treatment makes HIV-positive persons virtually unable to pass on HIV to anyone else, a scientific finding that has come to be known as “treatment as prevention.”

    http://www.housingworks.org/advocate/detail/throwback-thursday-infographics-much-cause-for-optimism-but-some-old-myths/


    VIRTUALLY UNABLE, NOT "UNABLE", an adverb has a function!
    [url]http://www.actoronto.org/bareback#%5B%3Cdiv%20class%3D%22header3%22%3E%5D12.%20I%20am[/url]
  • theonewhoknoc...

    Posts: 714

    Sep 02, 2014 2:51 AM GMT
    OP and the unckabasa guy should just bareback each other until one of them kicks icon_lol.gif
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    Sep 02, 2014 3:09 AM GMT
    theonewhoknocks saidOP and the unckabasa guy should just bareback each other until one of them kicks icon_lol.gif

    You mean masturbation then because they're the same person.
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    Sep 02, 2014 3:35 AM GMT
    xrichx saidAs I browse through profiles on smartphone apps, it really pains me to see 18, 19, and 20-something year old guys that are HIV+ so early in their lives. Obviously, they were misinformed or someone lied to them.

    You mean lied to and misinformed by someone with a dangerous personal agenda like timmm55?
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    Sep 02, 2014 12:18 PM GMT
    timmm55 saida willful disregard for evidence-based, scientific information that more likely has its roots in HIV stigma,

    We have come a long way in the science of HIV since Lawrence Altman’s 1981 New York Times article about what would come to be understood as HIV/AIDS, “Rare Cancer Seen in 41 Homosexuals.” What was once largely regarded as a virtual death sentence with no viable, long-term treatment is now a manageable chronic disease when diagnosed early.

    We now know that early, effective anti-retroviral (ARV) treatment can keep HIV-positive persons “undetectable” (i.e., virally suppressed, with fewer than 50 copies/ml of HIV detected in the blood) and healthy. And we also know today that reaching and maintaining undetectable status through effective ARV treatment makes HIV-positive persons virtually unable to pass on HIV to anyone else, a scientific finding that has come to be known as “treatment as prevention.”

    http://www.housingworks.org/advocate/detail/throwback-thursday-infographics-much-cause-for-optimism-but-some-old-myths/


    Why hasn't someone reported this piece of crap to the monitors so that the thread can be removed? I find it ridiculous that such information can be posted here when we all know the dangers of Hiv
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    Sep 02, 2014 1:06 PM GMT
    Rhi_Bran said

    Prevention lies in not having unsafe sex with HIV+ people. Period.

    There is literally no sane reason to have unsafe sex with anyone whose status you don't know.

    That isn't me or anyone else being callous. That's not stigma. That's just common sense.


    Thanks, Rhi_Bran, for the clarity and sanity.
  • Rhi_Bran

    Posts: 904

    Sep 02, 2014 9:51 PM GMT
    You're welcome. I have a friend who's been living with HIV for a decade or so now, and he's gone through hell for it. He doesn't like being slandered because of it, but he's not like timmm55 who tries to persuade people that unsafe sex with HIV+ UD people can't produce infections. He's very responsible about it and has told everyone he's dated that he is positive and is not willing to endanger anyone else or pressure anyone into having sex with him.

    I'm terribly sick of seeing so many misconceptions about HIV posted on this site. I feel like making a facts and myths thread to debunk the bunk.
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    Sep 02, 2014 11:21 PM GMT
    Rhi_Bran saidYou're welcome. I have a friend who's been living with HIV for a decade or so now, and he's gone through hell for it. He doesn't like being slandered because of it, but he's not like timmm55 who tries to persuade people that unsafe sex with HIV+ UD people can't produce infections. He's very responsible about it and has told everyone he's dated that he is positive and is not willing to endanger anyone else or pressure anyone into having sex with him.

    I'm terribly sick of seeing so many misconceptions about HIV posted on this site. I feel like making a facts and myths thread to debunk the bunk.


    I tell everybody, it's on my profile here....one of the most stigmatized sites for HIV I've ever seen.

    All I did was quote from the Advocate. And the Swiss Study and The Partners Study. Oh yeah, and the "Fuck POZ Guys!" article....his opinion. Many couples are discordant and that is THEIR choice. NOT YOURS. Yet ZERO cases. Could you imagine the outcry if there was a chance in hell of anyone getting HIV from either study? I only date PrEP, POZ and POZ/U. Due to the criminalization of HIV I wouldn't touch a Negative man.


    Find me "The Case" where HIV has been transmitted from a HIV Undetectable (<50 copies and 6 months) person. Antivirals have been around for 10 years. There should be at least 30 or 40 cases by now. I've been looking for it specifically. There was one case that sounded like it was true, turns out they probably had sex before his partner's viral load was fully suppressed.

    That's why the Partner's Study says "PROBABLY ZERO".

    Blaming undetectable people is insane. Blaming me, a person who takes his meds faithfully with never a blip or a hiccup.....with 13-24 year olds who don't get tested and bareback is absurd.
    They should absolutely be using condoms! With a 132% increase with everyone else down 30%, they are doing something terribly WRONG. It's the 25% who don't know their status and assume they are Negative, that are passing on HIV. Not the other 25% who are successfully on ART therapy.

    Again, find me "The Case" of POZ/undetectable passed on HIV. You say it is a fact, then you can prove it. If you can't you are merely perpetuation POZ stigma. And "The Case" is a myth.

    Although I've never had a problem meeting other POZ guys in PS, I love this rant.
    I'm Positive, I'm on Treatment, I'm Undetectable, So Get Off My Case!
    http://www.thebody.com/content/74921/im-positive-im-on-treatment-im-undetectable-so-get.html
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    Sep 02, 2014 11:30 PM GMT
    Undetectable - a drama in three parts


    "To put it bluntly, there is no telling in the eyes of detractors what unbridled licentiousness, what unchecked promiscuity undetectable people (or PrEP users) will engage in if they are told they are capable of risk-free sex. Or so it seems"

    http://www.positivelite.com/component/zoo/item/undetectable-a-drama-in-three-parts
  • Rhi_Bran

    Posts: 904

    Sep 06, 2014 1:12 AM GMT
    Find me "The Case" where HIV has been transmitted from a HIV Undetectable (<50 copies and 6 months) person.

    This is hardly a fair request, since so many cases of HIV go unnoticed for so long and many who end up being diagnosed have no idea who they got it from (especially considering those at highest risk are those with the most partners). All I am saying is that so long as there is even a small probability of contracting it, there is no reason to have unprotected sex with a positive person. Again, that's not stigma. Safe sex is NEVER a bad thing, whether you know your partner's status or not.

    Even on ART, viral load in bodily fluids can flux by minute amounts which can increase the chances of passing the disease. Undetectable does not mean negative - it just means that we don't have instruments sensitive enough to register the virus particles that remain in bodily fluids after ART is initiated.

    Blaming undetectable people is insane.

    Pardon, but I never blamed UD people or you personally for anything.

    They should absolutely be using condoms! With a 132% increase with everyone else down 30%, they are doing something terribly WRONG. It's the 25% who don't know their status and assume they are Negative, that are passing on HIV

    ...isn't that how positive folk who are on ART get to be positive in the first place? By assuming that their partners are negative and deciding to not use condoms? And then they get infected, don't find out right away, have more sex, and infect more people? I am very sorry if that seems harsh to any other pos guys out there, but timmm's statements are rife with cognitive dissonance.
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    Sep 06, 2014 11:48 PM GMT
    Rhi_Bran saidFind me "The Case" where HIV has been transmitted from a HIV Undetectable (<50 copies and 6 months) person.

    This is hardly a fair request,

    It's a very fair question!


    since so many cases of HIV go unnoticed for so long and many who end up being diagnosed have no idea who they got it from (especially considering those at highest risk are those with the most partners). All I am saying is that so long as there is even a small probability of contracting it, there is no reason to have unprotected sex with a positive person.

    That's BS. Researcher's have been investigating transmissions for decades to determine probability.

    Again, that's not stigma. Safe sex is NEVER a bad thing, whether you know your partner's status or not.

    That you can not differentiate between POZ and POZ/undetectable shows your ignorance.

    Even on ART, viral load in bodily fluids can flux by minute amounts which can increase the chances of passing the disease. Undetectable does not mean negative - it just means that we don't have instruments sensitive enough to register the virus particles that remain in bodily fluids after ART is initiated.


    "Conclusion: Studies of heterosexual discordant couples observed no transmission in patients treated with ART and with viral load below 400 copies/ml, but data were compatible with one transmission per 79 person-years. Further studies are needed to better define the risk of HIV transmission from patients on ART."
    http://journals.lww.com/aidsonline/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2009&issue=07170&article=00013&type=abstract

    <200 used to be undetectable. Mine is <40. Spikes and blips don't go that high. It may go down to true zero or up to 80, it fluctuates on graphs I've seen.
    But more importantly, if no one contracted HIV while under 50 copies, even assuming blips, it's a red herring.

    Blaming undetectable people is insane.

    Pardon, but I never blamed UD people or you personally for anything.

    Did you forget this? "...he's not like timmm55 who tries to persuade people that unsafe sex with HIV+ UD people can't produce infections. He's very responsible about it and has told everyone he's dated that he is positive and is not willing to endanger anyone else or pressure anyone into having sex with him."

    If you are saying I'm endangering anyone, or pressuring anyone by my conviction that Undetectable is safer sex...then you are blaming me! Even if your premise is not true. I'm hardly alone in this. Except on this site of course. Which is why I post. Ignorance breeds stigma.
    " So making sure you have an undetectable viral load reduces the risk of transmission significantly and actually now to the point of all of us being comfortable saying zero risk of transmission".
    http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSEX/Q237778.html


    They should absolutely be using condoms! With a 132% increase with everyone else down 30%, they are doing something terribly WRONG. It's the 25% who don't know their status and assume they are Negative, that are passing on HIV

    ...isn't that how positive folk who are on ART get to be positive in the first place? By assuming that their partners are negative and deciding to not use condoms? And then they get infected, don't find out right away, have more sex, and infect more people? I am very sorry if that seems harsh to any other pos guys out there, but timmm's statements are rife with cognitive dissonance.

    There are many ways to get HIV. And assuming your partner is negative is the most obvious. (More blame?) But as I said there are many ways. I got it before it even had a name, pre-GRIDS in fact.
    So no, it's not the same for me. Ever heard of transfusions, needles? Or is that another area of blame you want to address? Blame does nothing but encourage stigma and discrimination. Nor will I blame people who get HIV now.

    Maybe you don't understand that the HIV wheel of infecting gets broken by ART Therapy.....why it's called "Treatment as Prevention" because those people who were POZ, while still POZ, do not transmit HIV.

    I have no dissonance in my scientific, medical beliefs. It's entirely consistent.


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    Sep 06, 2014 11:56 PM GMT
    Blondizgd said



    Why hasn't someone reported this piece of crap to the monitors so that the thread can be removed? I find it ridiculous that such information can be posted here when we all know the dangers of Hiv



    This "Piece of CRAP" was from the Advocate.

    You don't know as much about HIV as you think you do.
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    Sep 07, 2014 12:09 AM GMT
    Rhi_Bran said

    In addition, "treatment as prevention" really only applies if people who engage in unsafe sexual practices get tested regularly, and if those who are recently infected are able to alert anyone that they could possibly have infected. As it is, many HIV infections go unnoticed and untreated until the latent stage, so not much prevention is coming from treatment at this point.



    TasP as it's called has reduced HIV infections in the USA 30% and S Africa 41%. You omitted the part where after testing, if positive they go on ART Therapy. Now that 250,000 (it should be a lot more, the US is way behind in their own policy) are on ART Therapy there has been a 30% reduction. The first time ever!

    Condoms? Use em! But they are not the reason the rates have receded. Condom use is down, here and in S Africa.
    http://www.unaids.org/en/resources/presscentre/pressreleaseandstatementarchive/2012/november/20121120prresults/


    You're promoting more myths than busting any.
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    Sep 07, 2014 5:07 AM GMT
    As unscientific as it may be, when I have sex with a condom, my ability to relax and enjoy is enhanced.

    When people have suggested sex without condoms, I get tense, anxious, and then I tend to lose my hardon.

    Therefore, I use condoms.
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    Sep 07, 2014 4:49 PM GMT
    GAMRican saidAs unscientific as it may be, when I have sex with a condom, my ability to relax and enjoy is enhanced.

    When people have suggested sex without condoms, I get tense, anxious, and then I tend to lose my hardon.

    Therefore, I use condoms.


    That's great. A lot of guys lose a hard on with condoms. That and decreased feeling are the two biggest reasons people don't wear condoms. I'm OK with them.

    Bill Gates is trying to invent a better condom that actually enhances feeling. Could make him a billionaire! Again! No joke...absolutely brilliant IMHO.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/25/health/bill-gates-condom-challenge/