Discussion of Christians before the Gospels were Written

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    Sep 17, 2014 2:46 AM GMT
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    ‘Christians’ were actually 2 separate groups, the Jewish rebels fighting Rome and then the wealthy Romans who converted to Christianity. The Flavians cleverly grafted their fake Christian history onto the real history of the Jewish rebels (who were the Christians the Romans were at first complaining about). Once you grasp that, the apparent contradiction of ‘Christians’ being persecuted before the Flavians invented Christianity, goes away. The Flavians did such a good job rewriting history that modern readers now misunderstand that the original Christians were Jewish Messianists, not followers of a person named Jesus.
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    Sep 18, 2014 12:31 AM GMT
    My response:

    You have an error in what you're saying. In Caesar's Messiah, Atwill quotes Titus as saying destroying the Temple would have an affect on the Jewish rebels and the Christians.

    Christians existed before the creation Atwill puts forth. Titus was aware of Christians according to Josephus [should be Severus]. How could this be?

    Well, you have to read books by Ralph Ellis.

    Jesus is the only begotten son? Queen Helena's son, Izates was an "only begotten son."

    Jesus fed 5,000? Izates and Queen Helena fed 5,000 more than once during the famine of 47 Common Era.

    Jesus was a king?

    Jesus wasn't a king for a day or a few days only: Palm Sunday and Mon.-Thu.

    Prince Izates was made king of a city during his lifetime. Queen Helena wasn't queen of Jerusalem or Judea but she lived there, had a palace and monuments there. It's possible that prince Izates was made a king of a place before the famine of 47. So, he was King Izates-Jesus when he fed 5,000+.

    The men in King Izates royal family wore crowns of thorns helmet-crowns. They were also part of the Manu line of kings. Jesus was Em-manu-el. King Izates was of the royal line of kings who were Em-Manu-El: Our God is with the Manu kings (not Our God is with us unless you're with the Manu kings).

    King Jesus and Jesus, King of Edessa by Ralph Ellis are quite important books in this field of study.

    I'm the author of The Greatest Bible Study in Historical Accuracy by Steefen.
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    Sep 18, 2014 12:33 AM GMT
    Hi Stephen. You'll have to give a citation, I don't recall Josephus saying that, or Atwill claiming it.
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    Sep 18, 2014 12:38 AM GMT
    My Response after Hunting for 3+ Hours for the Citation:

    It's not Josephus. It is Sulpcius Severus (-Tacitus). I add Tacitus for this reason:

    "As an authority for times antecedent to his own, Severus is of little moment. At only a few points does he enable us to correct or supplement other records. Jakob Bernays suggested that he based his narrative of the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus on the account given by Tacitus in his Histories, a portion of which has been lost. We are enabled thus to contrast Tacitus with Josephus..."
    - wikipedia's entry on Sulpicius Severus.

    Okay, now for the complication to Atwill's thesis that Christianity's sacred scripture was created by the Flavians but Christianity was in existence before then.

    Requested Citation:
    Page 222 of Caesar's Messiah, Chapter 8: New Root and Branch has:

    "Titus is said to have first summoned a council and deliberated whether or not he should destroy such a mighty temple ... Titus himself said that the destruction of the Temple was a prime necessity in order to wipe out more completely the religions of the Jews and Christians ... if the root were destroyed, the stock would easily perish."


    For the longest time in the U.S., FDR was remembered for the various government programs that put people to work. King Izates and Queen Helena were also remembered for their famine relief and their devotion to Judaism. Followers of King Izates are likely to be Christians. I've given some important reasons above but you will have to refer to the works of the independent researcher Ralph Ellis -- King Jesus and Jesus, King of Edessa.

    It is highly likely as the Flavians looked to create a domesticated/pacifist non-violent/militant messiah, they definitely could have used the life of the holy mother, Queen Helena, and her son, King Izates.
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    Sep 18, 2014 11:29 AM GMT
    The audio on Aquarius: Age of Evil is too low. So, I cannot initiate a forum post on it. That's why it was taken out of the title and the first post. There was evil in the Age of Pisces. No doubt, the Age of Aquarius is at risk for evil, too.
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    Sep 18, 2014 3:08 PM GMT
    villageofdamned.jpg
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    Sep 19, 2014 2:59 AM GMT
    Response by Facebook Poster:

    Hi Stephen.

    Atwill’s work is grounded on existing texts (mainly the NT, Josephus, and the Dead Sea Scrolls) but your point rests on the fact that Severus, writing hundreds of years later, might be referencing a Tacitus text that doesn’t even exist. How can that be falsified? It’s an argument from ignorance.

    Even if I go along with the assumption that Tacitus quoted Titus identifying Jewish rebels and Christians as distinct groups we are still stuck with the fact that all extra-biblical mentions of Christians are made by Flavian court historians.

    Tacitus and Josephus are not independent sources, but most writers pretend they are. Why aren’t Christians or Jesus mentioned by Velleius, Valerius, or Philo? Is it because these precious passages of their work were lost, or is it because, as Atwill asserts, that the Flavians and their court historians invented Christianity later?

    Atwill’s theory explains this and many other curiosities of history that other theories can’t. For example, if Christians existed before the Flavians why were so many early Christian saints members of Flavian family? Why were early Christian churches Roman Imperial cult centres (i.e.. The 7 churches mentioned in the Book of Revelation)?

    Atwill’s point on page 222 actually might prove the opposite of what you’re saying. When Severus uses the concept of destroying the root of Judaism it might be betraying his knowledge of the Flavian ‘root and branch’ metaphors in the Gospels. This might indicate Severus is a co-conspirator in the falsification of Christianity’s origin story, and therefore can’t be trusted.

    The only Christians in whom we can have confidence existed prior to the Flavians were Jewish Rebels that had nothing to do with Jesus as described in the Bible, a group of Jewish Messianists in a struggle with Rome referred to by their Greek name.
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    Sep 19, 2014 3:01 AM GMT
    Facebook Poster responds to another person in our conversation:

    the Nag Hammadi library is a different story. These were likely written hundreds of years after the Flavians. These writings could very well have evolved out of mystery school cults from Egypt, Greece, and Rome, but we have no texts that show us they called themselves ‘Christians’ before the Flavians came along. One again has to argue from ignorance to support this, building a history on an imaginary foundation.
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    Sep 20, 2014 12:11 AM GMT
    Reply to the Facebook Poster:

    You're in error. Atwill's work may be grounded on "surviving" texts. Your point is correct if you change it to this: is referencing a Tacitus text that did exist. I do not think you're going to get anywhere claiming Tacitus did not write a text on history.

    There are a number of instances where historians survive in the works of later historians quoting them. Second, we are not stuck with the fact that all extra-biblical mentions of Christians are made by Flavian court historians. That is not a fact. See the book: Jesus Outside of the New Testatment.

    Tacitus and Josephus ARE different people: they ARE independent sources and Tacitus was not Jewish.

    Third, Titus did destroy the Temple of Jerusalem which did put an end to Temple Judaism because the rebels were there. To win the war against the rebels he did have to destroy the Temple. So, actions speak louder than words.


    Now, as for the Christians, Christianity was a continuation of the ministry of John the Baptist. Christians definitely existed before the Flavian contribution to Christianity.

    Second, in my book, I discuss a saying in the gospels that is traced to a saying by the father of King Izates, a saying that also would have been made before the Flavian contribution to Christianity.


    James the Brother of Jesus also lived before the Flavian contribution to Christianity.

    Jesus feeding the 5,000 also happens before the Flavian contribution. It likely is a reference to King Izates and Queen Helena feeding thousands of people during the famine of 47.

    One reason Jesus isn't mentioned by others is because Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus is a title and not a proper name as it relates to the biblical Jesus. The historical Jesus's name was not always Jesus. There are a number of people who are written into the biography of the biblical Jesus.


    You ask: if Christians existed before the Flavians why were so many early Christian saints members of Flavian family? Answer, Jews didn't make people saints.


    Atwill's point on page 222 does not prove the opposite. The followers of John the Baptist and the followers of Queen Helena and Prince/King Izates kept their membership alive for at least 40 years which puts them still in existence during the Jewish Revolt.

    We know King Izates was a proselyte and his second generation was a rebel contingent against Rome. So, when Titus destroyed the Temple, he did destroy the place and source of King Izates' faith, Queen Helena's faith, and those in the royal family who kept the faith and wanted to win rebellion against Rome.


    "The only Christians that we can have confidence existed prior to the Flavians were Jewish Rebels that had nothing to do with Jesus as described in the Bible" is totally in error.


    It is imperative that you find the connection between Mother and only begotten child, Helena and Izates. You cannot just read the contents of Atwill's presentation and think you have the whole story. He makes some good points but his presentation is quite incomplete.
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    Sep 20, 2014 12:27 AM GMT
    For monument of Queen Helena, I found monumental stairs to the tombs of Queen Helena.

    11tombascalone.jpg

    Caption:
    Monumental stairs to the Tombs of Queen Helen. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus relates the conversion of Queen Helene of Adiabene to Judaism in the 1st cent. AD. She came to live in Jerusalem and was of great help in assisting the poor during an emergency (cf. Rm 15;26).