Catholic Bishops say gays have ‘gifts and qualities’ to offer church. Updated translation of Vatican report much colder, less welcoming to gays

  • metta

    Posts: 39104

    Oct 13, 2014 3:28 PM GMT
    Catholic Bishops say gays have ‘gifts and qualities’ to offer church

    'This is a stunning change in the way the Catholic church speaks of gay people.'

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/10/catholic-bishops-say-gays-have-gifts-and-qualities-to-offer-church/


    UPDATE:

    Updated translation of Vatican report much colder, less welcoming to gays

    The Vatican is watering down a ground-breaking overture to gays – but only if they speak English.

    After a draft report by bishops debating family issues came under criticism from conservative English-speaking bishops, the Vatican released a new translation on Thursday.

    A section initially titled “Welcoming homosexuals” is now “Providing for homosexual persons,” and the tone of the text is significantly colder and less welcoming.

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/10/updated-translation-of-vatican-report-much-colder-less-welcoming-to-gays/
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    Oct 13, 2014 6:51 PM GMT
    The fuck we do! Who do they think have been most of music ministers, choir members, priests, priests, bishops, nuns? Who do they think created most of the art that adorns their churches? Especially in the Catholic Church. No one likes pomp and circumstance and smells and bells and candles more than gay men.

    Tell me something I don't already know. Typical day late dollar short pronouncement from the church hierarchy.

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    Oct 13, 2014 6:57 PM GMT
    metta8 saidCatholic Bishops say gays have ‘gifts and qualities’ to offer church

    Did they mention money to offer? It's always all about the money. Emphsis on the "gifts". icon_rolleyes.gif
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4862

    Oct 13, 2014 9:44 PM GMT
    The official doctrine of the Roman Church has not really changed. It still rejects same-sex relationships.

    Because the Roman Church strongly asserts that it is infallible, it is very difficult for it to make doctrinal changes. Fortunately, the church of which I am a member, i.e., the Episcopal Church, does not see itself as infallible but rather acknowledges that error is possible. Therefore, it is able to make changes in doctrine.
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    Oct 13, 2014 10:04 PM GMT
    metta8 saidCatholic Bishops say gays have ‘gifts and qualities’ to offer church

    'This is a stunning change in the way the Catholic church speaks of gay people.'

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/10/catholic-bishops-say-gays-have-gifts-and-qualities-to-offer-church/



    You mean aside from alter boys ?
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    Oct 13, 2014 10:45 PM GMT
    FRE0 saidThe official doctrine of the Roman Church has not really changed. It still rejects same-sex relationships.

    Because the Roman Church strongly asserts that it is infallible, it is very difficult for it to make doctrinal changes. Fortunately, the church of which I am a member, i.e., the Episcopal Church, does not see itself as infallible but rather acknowledges that error is possible. Therefore, it is able to make changes in doctrine.


    Just for the record, in 2000 years the Catholic Church has only claimed two doctrines as infallible. It never claims itself to be generally "infallible." It claims that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" (i.e. "from the chair") in concert/agreement with all the bishops, on matters of faith and morals, that it then can speak with infallibility. The common thought that the Pope (or the church) claims he can't make a mistake (which some understand meaning he can never make a mistake even in common tasks like adding or subtracting) is not accurate when referring to infallibility.
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    Oct 13, 2014 10:49 PM GMT
    canadian_stud said
    metta8 saidCatholic Bishops say gays have ‘gifts and qualities’ to offer church

    'This is a stunning change in the way the Catholic church speaks of gay people.'

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/10/catholic-bishops-say-gays-have-gifts-and-qualities-to-offer-church/



    You mean aside from alter boys ?


    Don't tell me Holy Mother Church is paying for sex changes now!
  • n2Hoss

    Posts: 11

    Oct 13, 2014 11:18 PM GMT
    With all the changes/stand that the catholic church is now taking about gays is great. However, it means very little if the congregations still look down, belittles, demean, and treats gays as outcast and unequal. The church says everyone is welcomed, but the people of the congregation say otherwise.
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    Oct 14, 2014 12:01 AM GMT
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 saidThe official doctrine of the Roman Church has not really changed. It still rejects same-sex relationships.

    Because the Roman Church strongly asserts that it is infallible, it is very difficult for it to make doctrinal changes. Fortunately, the church of which I am a member, i.e., the Episcopal Church, does not see itself as infallible but rather acknowledges that error is possible. Therefore, it is able to make changes in doctrine.


    Just for the record, in 2000 years the Catholic Church has only claimed two doctrines as infallible. It never claims itself to be generally "infallible." It claims that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" (i.e. "from the chair") in concert/agreement with all the bishops, on matters of faith and morals, that it then can speak with infallibility. The common thought that the Pope (or the church) claims he can't make a mistake (which some understand meaning he can never make a mistake even in common tasks like adding or subtracting) is not accurate when referring to infallibility.


    Thank you! At least there is one other person out there that understands the doctrine of infallibility.
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    Oct 14, 2014 12:03 AM GMT
    Well, change like this is going to be quite gradual. It's my understanding that when a new Pope is selected, it's with the understanding that the new incumbent will carry on traditions as they have been for ages, not flip the entire place upside down. Granted, some Popes took greater liberties than others. They way it seems to me, change can either come from on high or from the bottom and work up. If it comes from the top, perhaps there's a chance to work out the way certain questions will be answered. Change from the bottom might tend to happen in a sort of explosion such as a revolt.
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    Oct 14, 2014 1:26 AM GMT
    UndercoverMan said
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 saidThe official doctrine of the Roman Church has not really changed. It still rejects same-sex relationships.

    Because the Roman Church strongly asserts that it is infallible, it is very difficult for it to make doctrinal changes. Fortunately, the church of which I am a member, i.e., the Episcopal Church, does not see itself as infallible but rather acknowledges that error is possible. Therefore, it is able to make changes in doctrine.


    Just for the record, in 2000 years the Catholic Church has only claimed two doctrines as infallible. It never claims itself to be generally "infallible." It claims that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" (i.e. "from the chair") in concert/agreement with all the bishops, on matters of faith and morals, that it then can speak with infallibility. The common thought that the Pope (or the church) claims he can't make a mistake (which some understand meaning he can never make a mistake even in common tasks like adding or subtracting) is not accurate when referring to infallibility.


    Thank you! At least there is one other person out there that understands the doctrine of infallibility.


    My thanks as well.
    Please understand that this is not an attack upon you, UC Man, or the Episcopal Church, which I, as a born, bred, and misled Catholic, have considered joining at several points in my life, but the biggest hurdle for me has always been what I see as Episcopalians' excessive flexibility. Consider that the faith itself was born of a king's need to legitimize a divorce and it's all downhill from there. I like the fact that it has, at least in its high church precincts, an order of service and tradition that encourages and complements contemplation of one's place in the world and with God, unlike some creeds that rely on fearsome Bible-thumping or austere, sanitized services that either frighten or somnolize instead of foster or solemnize folks like me from adhering to them, but it's always been flexible to a fault for me. William F. Buckley once asked, half in jest as he usually did, if there are "Episcopalians in foxholes," but I can't see how it ever digs itself out of the ditch into which it pitched itself starting with acquiescence to Henry VIII and continuing to what some rightly view as a too eager acceptance of all manner of modernity, if not morality, whether it conflicts with the foundations of Xtianity and its more rigorous regula or not. If I err, please correct me, as many of my Catholic friends whom I respect have converted to the Episcopal Church, and continue to argue I should so so as well. For now, though, I'll continue to view organized religion as an unnecessary middleman between God and me. Lord knows there are enough mysteries in theology w/o adding any layers more.
  • IgnatiusReill...

    Posts: 158

    Oct 14, 2014 5:29 AM GMT
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 saidThe official doctrine of the Roman Church has not really changed. It still rejects same-sex relationships.

    Because the Roman Church strongly asserts that it is infallible, it is very difficult for it to make doctrinal changes. Fortunately, the church of which I am a member, i.e., the Episcopal Church, does not see itself as infallible but rather acknowledges that error is possible. Therefore, it is able to make changes in doctrine.


    Just for the record, in 2000 years the Catholic Church has only claimed two doctrines as infallible. It never claims itself to be generally "infallible." It claims that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" (i.e. "from the chair") in concert/agreement with all the bishops, on matters of faith and morals, that it then can speak with infallibility. The common thought that the Pope (or the church) claims he can't make a mistake (which some understand meaning he can never make a mistake even in common tasks like adding or subtracting) is not accurate when referring to infallibility.

    Very well stated. Thanks for the clarification.
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    Oct 14, 2014 9:08 AM GMT
    Why any self respecting human, let alone homosexual would even want to be apart of that evil org, is beyond me.
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    Oct 14, 2014 4:55 PM GMT
    Aunty_Jack saidWhy any self respecting human, let alone homosexual would even want to be apart of that evil org, is beyond me.


    Same can be said of why any gay person would be part of the republican party.
    I suspect it has to do with the same reason why abusees return to their abusers.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4862

    Oct 14, 2014 8:47 PM GMT
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 saidThe official doctrine of the Roman Church has not really changed. It still rejects same-sex relationships.

    Because the Roman Church strongly asserts that it is infallible, it is very difficult for it to make doctrinal changes. Fortunately, the church of which I am a member, i.e., the Episcopal Church, does not see itself as infallible but rather acknowledges that error is possible. Therefore, it is able to make changes in doctrine.


    Just for the record, in 2000 years the Catholic Church has only claimed two doctrines as infallible. It never claims itself to be generally "infallible." It claims that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" (i.e. "from the chair") in concert/agreement with all the bishops, on matters of faith and morals, that it then can speak with infallibility. The common thought that the Pope (or the church) claims he can't make a mistake (which some understand meaning he can never make a mistake even in common tasks like adding or subtracting) is not accurate when referring to infallibility.


    There is considerable disagreement about which doctrines of the Roman Church are to be considered infallible. So far as I know, it is only the Roman church that has the doctrine of infallibility; so far as I know, no other Catholic churches have that doctrine.

    Here is a quotation from Wikipedia:

    "The Holy See has given no complete list of papal statements considered infallible. A 1998 commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published on L'Osservatore Romano in July 1998[71] listed a number of instances of infallible pronouncements by popes and by ecumenical councils, but explicitly stated (at no. 11) that this was not meant to be a complete list."

    This does have a bearing on how gay men and women are treated by the Roman Church. Although one may well question the accuracy of Wikipedia, it does site references which can easily be checked out.

    It is fortunate that King Henry VIII restored the Church of England's independence from Rome, partly because, as a result, gay men and women have more choices about religious affiliation.
  • metta

    Posts: 39104

    Oct 14, 2014 9:37 PM GMT
    Maggie Gallagher Is a Miserable Person

    "In a breathtakingly myopic and stunningly self-pitying blog post this morning, former NOM president Maggie Gallagher -- one of America's foremost proponents of marriage discrimination -- hinted that reports of a possible softening in the Vatican's tone towards so-called "non-traditional" families have her seriously thinking about leaving the Catholic Church."

    http://www.bilerico.com/2014/10/maggie_gallagher_is_a_miserable_person.php
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    Oct 14, 2014 10:10 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 said


    ...

    There is considerable disagreement about which doctrines of the Roman Church are to be considered infallible. So far as I know, it is only the Roman church that has the doctrine of infallibility; so far as I know, no other Catholic churches have that doctrine.

    ...


    Any of the Catholic Churches (of which there are many)that recognize the Bishop of Rome as the head of the Universal Church would recognize the doctrine.

    From the Catholic News Agency website: As Vicar of the universal Church, the Pope is shepherd of the rites of the West and the East. The eastern rites which have a separate code of canon law, are completely equal in dignity with the rites of the West. All of these eastern ritual churches come under the jurisdiction of the Pope through the Congregation for the Oriental Churches, one of the offices of the Roman Curia. The rites are administered by either a Patriarch, a Major Archbishop, a Metropolitan, or have some other arrangement. Patriarchs are elected by a synod of bishops of their rite, and then request ecclesiastical communion from the Pope. Major Archbishops are also elected by a synod of bishops of their rite, but then are approved by the Pope before they take office. Metropolitans are picked by the Pope from a list given by a synod of bishops.
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    Oct 14, 2014 11:02 PM GMT
    Blondizgd said
    Aunty_Jack saidWhy any self respecting human, let alone homosexual would even want to be apart of that evil org, is beyond me.


    Same can be said of why any gay person would be part of the republican party.
    I suspect it has to do with the same reason why abusees return to their abusers.


    Silly. If that were the case, I'd have never strayed from my families' Rust Belt, smokestack Demo roots. Funny how that "freedom of choice" is supposed to be exercised only one way according to the left.
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    Oct 14, 2014 11:06 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 saidThe official doctrine of the Roman Church has not really changed. It still rejects same-sex relationships.

    Because the Roman Church strongly asserts that it is infallible, it is very difficult for it to make doctrinal changes. Fortunately, the church of which I am a member, i.e., the Episcopal Church, does not see itself as infallible but rather acknowledges that error is possible. Therefore, it is able to make changes in doctrine.


    Just for the record, in 2000 years the Catholic Church has only claimed two doctrines as infallible. It never claims itself to be generally "infallible." It claims that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" (i.e. "from the chair") in concert/agreement with all the bishops, on matters of faith and morals, that it then can speak with infallibility. The common thought that the Pope (or the church) claims he can't make a mistake (which some understand meaning he can never make a mistake even in common tasks like adding or subtracting) is not accurate when referring to infallibility.


    There is considerable disagreement about which doctrines of the Roman Church are to be considered infallible. So far as I know, it is only the Roman church that has the doctrine of infallibility; so far as I know, no other Catholic churches have that doctrine.

    Here is a quotation from Wikipedia:

    "The Holy See has given no complete list of papal statements considered infallible. A 1998 commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published on L'Osservatore Romano in July 1998[71] listed a number of instances of infallible pronouncements by popes and by ecumenical councils, but explicitly stated (at no. 11) that this was not meant to be a complete list."

    This does have a bearing on how gay men and women are treated by the Roman Church. Although one may well question the accuracy of Wikipedia, it does site references which can easily be checked out.

    It is fortunate that King Henry VIII restored the Church of England's independence from Rome, partly because, as a result, gay men and women have more choices about religious affiliation.


    Henry VIII never "restored the C of E's independence from Rome;" he severed its ties with Rome and made it subservient to the English Crown and Parliament, which it remains today. Xtianity came to England from Rome and remained subject to its direction until H8, no hot cross bun intended.
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    Oct 15, 2014 12:31 AM GMT
    metta8 saidCatholic Bishops say gays have ‘gifts and qualities’ to offer church

    'This is a stunning change in the way the Catholic church speaks of gay people.'

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/10/catholic-bishops-say-gays-have-gifts-and-qualities-to-offer-church/


    WTF, gifts-and-qualities?

    Awesome liberal democrat gays, agree with stereotypes of gays that we're different.

    Perhaps a drag queen with pink hair, a garter belt and dressed as a nun in a miniskirt should be sent to the Vatican to represent gays. It can bring the Pope some of Melissa Etheridge's marijuana spiked wine to use for Sunday mass.
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    Oct 15, 2014 12:38 AM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    metta8 saidCatholic Bishops say gays have ‘gifts and qualities’ to offer church

    Did they mention money to offer? It's always all about the money. icon_rolleyes.gif


    Yet another stereotype: Gays have lots of money due to the big tips we get as hairdressers.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4862

    Oct 15, 2014 3:02 AM GMT
    MGINSD said
    FRE0 said
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 saidThe official doctrine of the Roman Church has not really changed. It still rejects same-sex relationships.

    Because the Roman Church strongly asserts that it is infallible, it is very difficult for it to make doctrinal changes. Fortunately, the church of which I am a member, i.e., the Episcopal Church, does not see itself as infallible but rather acknowledges that error is possible. Therefore, it is able to make changes in doctrine.


    Just for the record, in 2000 years the Catholic Church has only claimed two doctrines as infallible. It never claims itself to be generally "infallible." It claims that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" (i.e. "from the chair") in concert/agreement with all the bishops, on matters of faith and morals, that it then can speak with infallibility. The common thought that the Pope (or the church) claims he can't make a mistake (which some understand meaning he can never make a mistake even in common tasks like adding or subtracting) is not accurate when referring to infallibility.


    There is considerable disagreement about which doctrines of the Roman Church are to be considered infallible. So far as I know, it is only the Roman church that has the doctrine of infallibility; so far as I know, no other Catholic churches have that doctrine.

    Here is a quotation from Wikipedia:

    "The Holy See has given no complete list of papal statements considered infallible. A 1998 commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published on L'Osservatore Romano in July 1998[71] listed a number of instances of infallible pronouncements by popes and by ecumenical councils, but explicitly stated (at no. 11) that this was not meant to be a complete list."

    This does have a bearing on how gay men and women are treated by the Roman Church. Although one may well question the accuracy of Wikipedia, it does site references which can easily be checked out.

    It is fortunate that King Henry VIII restored the Church of England's independence from Rome, partly because, as a result, gay men and women have more choices about religious affiliation.


    Henry VIII never "restored the C of E's independence from Rome;" he severed its ties with Rome and made it subservient to the English Crown and Parliament, which it remains today. Xtianity came to England from Rome and remained subject to its direction until H8, no hot cross bun intended.


    Of course he severed ties with Rome; that was the only way he could restore the Church of England after Rome dominated it. Unfortunately, the Church of England, like the Church of Rome, also became oppressive and discriminated against non-members. In fact, William Penn, the first governor of the colony of Pennsylvania, was arrested in England several times for being a Quaker instead of a member of the Church of England. When the author of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon, was young he wanted to join the Roman Church but his father dissuaded him out of fear of the consequences of leaving the Church of England. However, so far as I know, unlike the Roman Church, the Church of England never had anyone burned alive at the stake or kidnapped Jewish children and raised them as Christians.
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    Oct 15, 2014 5:02 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    MGINSD said
    FRE0 said
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 said
    .




    ... However, so far as I know, unlike the Roman Church, the Church of England never had anyone burned alive at the stake or kidnapped Jewish children and raised them as Christians.


    Then your knowledge of history is sorely lacking. I don't know about kidnapping Jewish babies but the Crown (the head of the Church of England) confiscated the property, tortured, hanged, drawn, and quartered many of its subjects simply because they were Catholic, keeping the old faith, teaching the old faith, harboring Catholic priests, etc. the hands of the COE are not unbloodied.
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    Oct 15, 2014 6:30 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan said
    FRE0 said
    MGINSD said
    FRE0 said
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 said
    .




    ... However, so far as I know, unlike the Roman Church, the Church of England never had anyone burned alive at the stake or kidnapped Jewish children and raised them as Christians.


    Then your knowledge of history is sorely lacking. I don't know about kidnapping Jewish babies but the Crown (the head of the Church of England) confiscated the property, tortured, hanged, drawn, and quartered many of its subjects simply because they were Catholic, keeping the old faith, teaching the old faith, harboring Catholic priests, etc. the hands of the COE are not unbloodied.


    You're correct, UCM, and neither stuffing nor burning any off-topic straw men will undo that historical fact. St. Thomas More presided over many a heretic's burning while Rome still governed the Church in England - cf., the English Church - as did his Protestant counterparts and the rulers they served during and after Henry VIII's reign. The last burning of a heretic in England occurred in 1612 under James I, one of England's last probable homosexual kings who, despite his inclination, didn't delete Leviticus from his version of the Bible.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4862

    Oct 15, 2014 8:12 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan said
    FRE0 said
    MGINSD said
    FRE0 said
    pecmansd said
    FRE0 said
    .




    ... However, so far as I know, unlike the Roman Church, the Church of England never had anyone burned alive at the stake or kidnapped Jewish children and raised them as Christians.


    Then your knowledge of history is sorely lacking. I don't know about kidnapping Jewish babies but the Crown (the head of the Church of England) confiscated the property, tortured, hanged, drawn, and quartered many of its subjects simply because they were Catholic, keeping the old faith, teaching the old faith, harboring Catholic priests, etc. the hands of the COE are not unbloodied.


    Here is the story of the last Jewish child that was kidnapped in accordance with the practice of the Roman Church:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

    At the time it occurred, there was considerable international publicity; that ended the practice. The astonishing thing is how long the practice continued and how late it ended.

    I am well aware of the things done by various Christian denominations that were nothing short of barbaric, including the Church of England. It was not only the Roman Church that was guilty, but the Roman Church as been very slow to acknowledge the ghastly things it has done. The fact that several churches have engaged in barbaric behavior in no way diminishes the guilt of the Roman Church for doing similar things.

    In colonial America, one protestant denomination actually burned people alive at the stake; I am very well aware of that.

    In any case, the English Crown did not torture any one simply for being Catholic. However, they did torture people for being Roman Catholic, but that is no excuse.