My name is *blank*, and I'm masculine.

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    Jan 16, 2009 7:54 AM GMT

    This isn't a hit at anyone in particular so much as it's just a thought (yeah, one of THOSE posts...there's a question at the bottom, I promise)

    Whenever I read through a guy's profile and I stumble across something along the lines of "I'm masculine", or "looking for a masculine...", I automatically skip the next few lines and try to find some substance. Almost as if using "masculine" to define yourself or your potential mate has become so common that it's lost the ability to relay what you originally intended: that you're a man who does manly things.

    But then again, a man - in the most basic definition - is a sexually matured human being with a cock (well, roughly). From there on, what makes that man masculine is all in the eyes of the beholder.

    Online, using the word to describe yourself is your decision, but what can you say about yourself afterwards that backs it up? That you watch and love sports? I know girls who know more about sports than most of the guys on Sportscenter - and they're straight. So are they masculine? Ooh, but you drive a truck? So did grandma for a while - a farmer's wife through and through. She wasn't exactly masculine, though.

    There are a ton of guys on here who are masculine, in my eyes, but wouldn't have to say so for me to know. So why should they feel the need to say it? Do some RJer's actually look for that word when they read through a profile?
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    Jan 16, 2009 9:04 AM GMT
    Yeah I do. My ideal man is, I quote:

    "Must be male. LOL
    Masculine and muscular.
    Must be unbelievably hot.

    Must belong to the following ethnicities:
    Martian
    Snark
    Boojum
    Jabberwocky
    Goldfish"

    I'm going to be alone all my life, I know. But there's always world domination.
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    Jan 16, 2009 2:53 PM GMT
    Masculinity is as much culturally determined as anything else. What a US male considers as masculine behaviour (being very independent for example) might be considered pathological behaviour in other cultures.

    One of the fascinating things about human behaviour is how insecure men really are. I find them much more insecure then women in many ways. They also seem to be more capable of self-delusion then women. They try and convince themselves that they are measuring up to society's expectations of them, and get very touchy if someone kindly points out that their self-image is not entirely accurate.

    How masculine a man feels is one area of self-delusion and insecurity.

    "I can't express my feelings that is not what a man does."

    "I can't go to the ballet because that is unmanly."

    "I can't enjoy a romantic movie only action movies."

    "I have to be good at sports."

    "I have to make a six figure salary."

    I could go on for another three pages.

    And BTW your career path is what I should have done. Aerospace engineering, what a dream! Now all you have to do is convince airlines that supersonic transport if viable. But you are very young and who knows what the future brings.


  • MuslDrew

    Posts: 463

    Jan 16, 2009 4:14 PM GMT
    The Village People pop into my head.....
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:20 PM GMT
    MuslDrew saidThe Village People pop into my head.....


    icon_lol.gif

    Ah the clone look! "Macho Man" played on my IPod the other day. Those were the days.
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:24 PM GMT
    Gay people in this country spent many many years fighting disease, prejudice and right wing lunacy so that anyone can act as effeminate or masculine as they want.

    This ridiculous obsession with appearing masculine is based solely upon gender stereotypes. It's pandering to straight people, another way to assimilate with the masses.

    I suppose if it's just a sex thing, who wouldn't prefer a marlboro man to a pussyboy?

    but people didn't fight for gay civil rights so we can all start expecting each other to act like we're straight. To force that expectation on the next generation of gay youths is really fucked up because this time it's gay people sabotaging themselves, instead of the ignorant masses.

    and I know that 'masculine' and 'straight' aren't the same thing, but do you? Are you really thinking of traits that are masculine? Or just traits that you associate with straight men?
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:29 PM GMT
    When someone states outright that they are masculine, the following things immediately come to mind:

    He's insecure about his masculinity.
    He's likely to dismiss you completely because of some trite or shallow attribute that he finds intolerable.
    He spends more time trying to 'be' masculine without ever realizing that it's in the eye of the beholder.
    He never cries, or for that matter, displays any emotion of personal compassion.
    He's likely to berate and belittle men based on virtually nothing other than they walked through his field of vision.
    He spends a lot of time comparing himself to others in a manner that's not constructive but rather with an attitude of "This is how I'm stronger/smarter/better than him:..."

    "No one with class ever thinks about whether or not they have it."
    bgcat57 1991
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:30 PM GMT
    Awesome thread man!
    I agree with you 100%
    People that think they have to mention character traits that are usually subject to a third person's point of view are usually just insecure.
    Things like "Im VGL", "I'm masculine", "I'm laid back" usually sound to me like a lame attempt to hide the opposite.
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:38 PM GMT

    If I see this in someone's profile I just go to the next one .. It sounds like a pathetic attemt to proove that he's a man and not some trangendered-diva-clown ... If someone is masculine that he shouldn't even care much about it and put a lot of emphasis on the word ..

    As for me, I love natural guys .. I like gay guys actually , I'm gay and I'm looking for a gay guy. someone who try to look masculine just has a problem.. it's not my business ..

    Besides .. when someone say that he's masculine he often relate it to the position in bed :

    Masculine - top and strong.

    Gay - bottom, sqeaky voiced little whore ...

    and I hate these stereotypes ..
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:48 PM GMT
    Most people forget completely that masculinity is a concept with shifting parameters (like marriage, for that matter - the institution that some say has remained "unchanged" for time immemorial has, of course, always changed with time and political/social change)

    Today, icons of masculinity like Harrison Ford wear an earring. Not something you'd have seen in John Wayne's day. Does anyone recall that when the wristwatch was introduced (early 20th century) it was considered "effeminate"? It was use by the military that changed that (I think specifically it was pilots who were first in line.)

    The underlying issue, IMO, is that most human societies - in particular ours - de-value the feminine and so-called "feminine virtues." A woman can put on her husband or brother's trousers, shirt or coat and go out to dinner or shopping or to school without much notice. It was "charming" a few years ago when girls started wearing guys' boxer shorts. Sure, a woman who always dresses in men's clothing might be called "butch" etc - but doing it now and then is anything from sexy, to cute, to practical. She can even wear a tux to the Oscars and be called "chic."

    Flip that coin: the guy who wears women's panties has a fetish. Wear a woman's blouse or a shirt that looks like one - unless you're a rock star - and you'll attract a lot of laughs. A guy in a beaded dress? Unless he's a comedian, he's in drag, and is either putting on a show or just plain ridiculous.

    This extends to behavior, too. They don't say, "Bob is a nurse." They say, "Bob is a male nurse." (of course some still say, "Jane is a lady doctor", but not often. A female firefighter ... yeah. Even though saying "Judy is a firefighter" certainly leaves no doubt as to Judy's sex! Not many guys named Judy yet, even if some of us are "friends' of Judy ...)

    anyway, as long as our society devalues the feminine, it will be ridiculous for a man to "choose" feminine-associated things for himself.We have gender-oriented ideas of what is ridiculous. On the red carpet, high, skinny heels and bare shoulders, beautiful color and filmy textures are sexy on a beautiful woman. Flat shoes, layers of shirt and coat, subdues color or none at all are sexy on men. But all of that has been created - it's not our nature to choose one look or another, though perhaps it is our nature to want to fit the standard we - or others - have created.
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:51 PM GMT
    Sedative saidYeah I do. My ideal man is, I quote:

    "Must be male. LOL
    Masculine and muscular.
    Must be unbelievably hot.

    Must belong to the following ethnicities:
    Martian
    Snark
    Boojum
    Jabberwocky
    Goldfish"

    I'm going to be alone all my life, I know. But there's always world domination.


    Racist! You excluded Bandersnatch! We the Bandersnatchi anti-defamation league will not stand for this!
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:52 PM GMT
    bgcat57 saidWhen someone states outright that they are masculine, the following things immediately come to mind:

    He's insecure about his masculinity.
    He's likely to dismiss you completely because of some trite or shallow attribute that he finds intolerable.
    He spends more time trying to 'be' masculine without ever realizing that it's in the eye of the beholder.
    He never cries, or for that matter, displays any emotion of personal compassion.
    He's likely to berate and belittle men based on virtually nothing other than they walked through his field of vision.
    He spends a lot of time comparing himself to others in a manner that's not constructive but rather with an attitude of "This is how I'm stronger/smarter/better than him:..."

    "No one with class ever thinks about whether or not they have it."
    bgcat57 1991



    This is the BEST response!!!!
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    Jan 16, 2009 4:56 PM GMT
    awesome post buddy!
    i knew i hot listed you for a good reason icon_smile.gif

    here is an excerpt from my profile under the "guys i want to meet" section:

    2. Guys who don't feel the need to tell everyone how masculine they are. Don't worry, you can still be masculine without telling everyone

    and i agree with ikaros 9 times out of 10 anybody that says they are masculine and looking for that have the biggest listhp out of all of them.

    im really tired of guys equating the femininity stereotype with being "bad" Maybe it really isn't who you are but don't worry about everyone else. be your self.



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    Jan 16, 2009 4:58 PM GMT
    I met a pretty good-looking Goldfish for you the other day, Sed. I don't speak the language, but I think he gave me a number to give to you..

    "glub glub *bubble* glub *bubble*"

    I guess this is what happens when you try to pick up guys at the pet store...
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    Jan 16, 2009 5:07 PM GMT
    There is a difference in my mind between masculine attributes and macho attitudes.

    In my mind to be masculine is to have the following positive traits,

    Strength of character
    Courage
    Boldness in Action, for example in solving problems
    Taking personal responsibility
    Admitting a mistake and moving on.
    Etc., Etc., and on and on.

    In my mind to be macho is to have the following negative traits,

    Always trying to prove ones manhood.
    Picking on people they see as inferior which is just about everybody.
    Getting angry at the slightest deviation from a planned activity.
    Always either physically or verbally looking for a fight.
    Etc., Etc. and on and on.

    People tell me I am masculine but what they are referring to is the way I look, the way I talk and the way I move. They tell me I could “pass”. I find that insulting because what they are telling me is that because I am gay, they expect me to be a certain way that is just not natural for me. However, I do not necessarily feel masculine. Sometimes, I just want to be protected for awhile. Sometimes I get really emotional and I would just like to go into a corner and cry. Sometimes I can not solve a problem or find my way and I just want some help.
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    Jan 16, 2009 5:15 PM GMT
    Well, lots of folks describe themselves either accurately, or not. I almost roll my eyes over pictureless, VGL, built, hung.....etc. Should not the viewer be allowed to make those judgments? In my book, "hung" is not part of the initial selection process. Quite the opposite. If a guy touts "hung" as his best attribute, generally, I'll not even put him through the first stages of acquaintance.

    I think folks do this for several reasons. They are delusional. E.g., some self-proclaimed VGL aren't even close to VGL. (They live in a fantasy world of their own creation. With, or without, mental illness.) Some guys, I think, do it because they absolutely don't want to deal with fairies, whiners, fems, or the like, and who can blame them? Just because you're gay or bi doesn't mean you have to behave poorly. I think that some guys say "masculine" in an effort to filter out some of the really weird folks. Others, I think say what they think someone else would want them to say. I have to giggle when someone says 5'10", 145#, muscular. Oh, yeah? Last time I checked the dictionary, muscular meant an abundance of muscle. At 5'10", at 145#, that can't be. Another strange proclamation is "ripped." If I can't see abs, you aren't ripped, and, if you're 120# at 6', you aren't ripped, but, rather, you are suffering from starvation.

    Whatever, the case, it is what it is, and we either go along with bad behavior, or not. If we go along with it, we promote it, even if passively. If we don't go along with it, we slow it down, even if passively.

    We all have preferences and, hopefully, we're prudently judgmental in our process of selecting those that we want in our lives.

    I'm attracted to a certain culture, intellect, confidence, demeanor, build, grooming style, personal ethics, and so on, that some other person may be intimidated by or resent for their own reasons, or find repulsive. Does that make me bad? No. We all have our personal tastes.

    It's o.k. to describe yourself, if you do so in an accurate way. Unfortunately, men, in general, and gays in particular, tend to stretch a bit on things they feel important. I.e., they view themselves as perhaps more good looking, built, or masculine than they really are. It's easy to validate all that: step on a stage, put yourself on a rating site, and so on. Most guys won't go through that evaluation because they really don't want at the truth, and would rather have some fantasy in there.
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    Jan 16, 2009 8:30 PM GMT
    GuerrillaSodomite said

    Racist! You excluded Bandersnatch! We the Bandersnatchi anti-defamation league will not stand for this!


    I'm not racist! It's just a preference! I have a lot of bandersnatchi friends and I have never raised a vorpal sword against them! *sniff*

    aerovaulter saidI met a pretty good-looking Goldfish for you the other day, Sed. I don't speak the language, but I think he gave me a number to give to you..

    "glub glub *bubble* glub *bubble*"

    I guess this is what happens when you try to pick up guys at the pet store...


    icon_biggrin.gif

    ♫ I have a blind date I have a blind date ♪ I have a blind date... la la la ♫
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    Jan 16, 2009 8:35 PM GMT
    I've never met a masculine guy that said "I'm masculine."
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    Jan 16, 2009 8:36 PM GMT
    my name is blink and im masculine. i have been masculine now for 5 years.

    *support group claps.
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    Jan 16, 2009 8:37 PM GMT
    well, except this one guy.....
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    Jan 16, 2009 8:41 PM GMT
    I love this thread, I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought this way. I agree completely with bgcat57 below, as well as with GHoSTa--for the most part, when I read someone going on about how they can only associate with other "masculine" guys I get very bored and move on.



    bgcat57 saidWhen someone states outright that they are masculine, the following things immediately come to mind:

    He's insecure about his masculinity.
    He's likely to dismiss you completely because of some trite or shallow attribute that he finds intolerable.
    He spends more time trying to 'be' masculine without ever realizing that it's in the eye of the beholder.
    He never cries, or for that matter, displays any emotion of personal compassion.
    He's likely to berate and belittle men based on virtually nothing other than they walked through his field of vision.
    He spends a lot of time comparing himself to others in a manner that's not constructive but rather with an attitude of "This is how I'm stronger/smarter/better than him:..."

    "No one with class ever thinks about whether or not they have it."
    bgcat57 1991
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    Jan 16, 2009 9:17 PM GMT
    thank you for this post aerovaulter :p i've not been bothered with the label so much in people's profiles as i have been with the abundance of the topic in the forums lately, worded slightly differently over and over again- i'm getting really bored with all the debates over masculinity/effeminateness. so here's MY statement on the matter for once and for all: you raise a good point-

    so many guys here seem to define themselves as thoroughly and unhealthily by how well they fit into mainstream society's views of proper, steriotypical male machismo... as the 'queeny' effeminate gay men do by their adherance to their particular steriotype of choice. are the butch gays any better for being so? they are ultimately still men who love other men. well, they go with the grain of society much more smoothly i guess, but is that worth pinning oneself with a badge of pride? its like racism within the black community where the darker skin tones are looked down upon by the lighter ones.
    in both cases, macho and queeny, the individuals who pride themselves on their 'butchness' or their 'queeniness' and revel in all that being a walking steriotype has to offer... are ultimately shoehorning themselves into a category; limiting themselves by convincing themselves that this or that mask is more comfortable and proper.

    its the grown-up version of what we all did in middle school and maybe high school as we sought desperately to find ourselves and decide who we were- we tried on roles, masks, played with stereotypes and perhaps switched ranks a time or two- the jock, the brainy nerd, the dungeons and dragons dork, the artist, the outcast, the punk- and even more refined social 'costumes.' many use a comfortable steriotype as a basis once its settled on, and then grow and evolve into themselves- transcending it. this is called growing up. for example, many use being the 'token gay kid' upon first coming out as a sort of empowerment and regaining of confidence after being closeted. sadly- many become addicted to the surface level confidence it gives to adhere so strongly to the stereotype, and they get stuck in it... never growing, never really in possession of themselves... but merely addicted to a pattern. and that's where we get club kids in women's jeans and overly bleached hair lol. yes, its a stereotype- but they choose to fill it and live it. its empowering and safe and comfortable for them.

    my point being... the same is true of those who are a little too loud, a little too forceful, a little too... defensive of their 'manliness.'

    now, of course, some gay men are just more 'male normative' than other gay men. some genuinely enjoy fishing and hiking and wearing flannel or whatever the case may be. some genuinely have no interest in products or fashion or even looking good- they love beer and football, etc. (i merely list the first few qualities of the stereotypes that come to mind)
    if this is a genuine composition of interests and tendencies in their personality, so be it- it takes all types. but i think that those who are a bit... dependent- emotionally, psychologically, socially, professionally- on those qualities; the men who insist upon their butchness and defend their manliness to the death in gory flame wars- should re-evaluate why they feel so strongly about it.
    as with most staunchly clung-to self identities... it probably springs from a deep rooted insecurity; fear of other's opinions, fear of parent's reactions, fear of rejection, fear of self that drives such men to screw up their faces at the mere mention of a shopping trip. at the end of the day... all the oversized football T-shirts and flannel in the world don't change the fact that they like dick. so how butch is that? can one butchly love dick? they would argue yes, I'm sure, but what I'm hoping to see more of is for men to actually grow and transcend labels and stereotypes. love what you love- be who you are- a man can like football AND rock the gucci loafers- a man can guzzle beer AND get his nails done once a month. its not incongruous if the man in question doesn't define himself so thoroughly by such surface level things. it takes a real man, with real confidence (which is the sexiest thing anyone can cultivate- i think all would agree) to really and simply not CARE how they look to others in that regard.



    all of that said, i can understand why someone would put a blurb in their profile about being more male-normative or looking for that in others... because even merely being our true selves, we all DO fall into a broad range and spectrum of types and dispositions.... this has more to do with who the person is than what they do though.... its hard to put into words but i think many, when contemplating masculinity, define it by its manifestations within the cultural and social norm. this is wrong. but they do it because its such an abstract thing that there are few words to describe the thing itself. 'masculine' 300 years ago commonly meant wearing tights, ribbons, long hair, powder, and high heels (with cute lil buckles). but the men who tried too hard to fit that image overdid it, and became 'dandys.' today, can't we say the same?- that those who try too hard to look good and fit the social expectations loose some of their masculinity? obviously, masculinity's manifestations are subject to change according to social whims- but my argument is that masculinity is more a matter of personal confidence and radiation or emanation of said confidence in being unapologetically oneself, than it is to do with its manifestations. is this making sense? sorry if its scrambled..... hard to put into words as i've said.
    my point being: if you're attracted to men who are masculine, at least know that its the confidence and disposition you're attracted to, not the acts commonly deemed butch by society; a man can be manly and still love to dress well or cook or drink girly drinks- just as an effeminate man can wear baggy pants or mow a lawn if they want to. if those ARE what attract you to a person, you should re-evaluate yourself, because you'll never find happiness with someone in that case. everyone has a 'type' they go for, myself included, and we all try to BE that type that seems most sought-after... but my final word is a caution to be aware of what that type truly means and is- and that the more hung up someone is on it, the less they probably know what it is they're searching for, in others or in themselves.

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    Jan 16, 2009 9:20 PM GMT
    Good post Czarodziej. I personally love "girly" drinks, especially Bacardi rum coolers. icon_biggrin.gif

    And you are living proof that a masculine guy can dress well.
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    Jan 16, 2009 9:21 PM GMT
    very well said, Czarodziej.

    In the end, it's not how "masculine" or "feminine" a guy is that attracts me to him, it's usually how comfortable he is in his own skin. The ability to laugh at himself helps too.
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    Jan 16, 2009 9:23 PM GMT
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