Is 800 Billion enough of an Economic Stumulus Package to do any good?

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    Jan 16, 2009 9:42 PM GMT
    How about it, is 800 billion enough to get Americans back to work, and to head off a deeper recession, or a possible depression? Should it be as some economists suggest up to 1.2 Trillion? Should we just settle for 3 or 4 hundred billion in the form of tax cuts? or is this nuts altogether? what do you think? Personally when I read that Bush spent 11.5 trillion (an article today on MSNBC) getting us into this hole, with most of that money shifting to a relatively few (mainly war machine big business or his other terror war efforts) then it stands to reason that we have to put in some major effort to get money flowing back at home. Don't get me wrong, this financial mess is multifaceted, and not all his administrations fault. (just most of it !!! LOL) What do you guys think??
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    Jan 16, 2009 9:49 PM GMT
    A survey of the top 20 rated economists found that, of those with an opinion, two do not favor the package, five supported it with two of those (including Nobel Prize winning Paul Krugman) saying a bigger package would be better.

    The economy isn't something I know enough about to have an opinion on this though.
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    Jan 16, 2009 9:49 PM GMT
    no, i need at least that much to get my hair done. the rest of you are fucked.
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    Jan 16, 2009 10:38 PM GMT
    FDR did the same thing in 1933. the "new deal" was supposed to be a temperary fix. well, it extended the depression for another seven years. now, with this "temperary" stimulious package, FDR number two is doing the same thing. Contrary to what he says, gov is NOT the only solutuion. Gov started this whole disaster back in 1977 with the community reinvestment act. now, we're paying for it hardcore. this is why gov should stay out of our dog gone lives!
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    Jan 17, 2009 2:45 AM GMT

    I agree, too much government, doenst help.

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    Jan 17, 2009 2:55 AM GMT
    Depends on who's spending it.

    If it's George Bush & Co., then no. They can't do anything right. By general consensus they've already blown the first $350 billion of the initial bailout.

    If it's Obama. . . maybe so.
  • coolarmydude

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    Jan 17, 2009 3:01 AM GMT
    jffrsnndisc0rlnss said, FDR did the same thing in 1933. the "new deal" was supposed to be a temperary fix. well, it extended the depression for another seven years. now, with this "temperary" stimulious package, FDR number two is doing the same thing. Contrary to what he says, gov is NOT the only solutuion. Gov started this whole disaster back in 1977 with the community reinvestment act. now, we're paying for it hardcore. this is why gov should stay out of our dog gone lives!"



    Here we freaking go again!

    Allow me to stop your spin: First of all, if that act in 1977 was so relevant to what's going on now, then how come the real estate market did poorly in the late 80s after a modest market in the early 80s and then boom throughout the 90s? I mean, how can that event have relevance 30 years later? Clinton you say? Okay, If the Republicans were so attuned to this legislation's effects, then how come Bush never repealed it under his watch under a Republican-controlled Congress for 6 years? I guess you can call that question a gotcha-question!

    Although I didn't get to watch the whole episode, the History Channel is pointing a big fat finger on Phil Gramm (nation of whiners commenter) who orchestrated this mess in the early 2000s.
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    Jan 17, 2009 3:08 AM GMT
    Yes. . . Phil Gramm. . . up until he made that ill-advised comment, he was one of McCain's chief economic advisors
  • coolarmydude

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    Jan 17, 2009 3:10 AM GMT
    realifedad,

    I don't think any amount will fix this massive problem. There are two reasons why I see it that way:

    1) Historically speaking, FDR's plan was successful in stopping the tailspin of the Great Depression, but it took WWII to get us out of it. Now we're in two wars and Iraq is causing us to hemmorrage billions upon billions of dollars.

    2) The biggest problem with the markets was over-valuation. This is the reason why housing prices are falling drastically and stock values are correcting at an alarming rate. This over-valuation can never be recouped, except by another speculative bull market or a long-term investment approach that would take decades.

    The only thing people can do is wait it out. If they speculated, they can expect to lose. The only thing Obama or anyone can do is create jobs and get people back to work. I think that businesses that are most effected, like manufacturing companies, should receive 5-year tax abatements to relieve these severly affected companies and to keep the state and local governments from having to pay for them. Our state budgets are decimated already and they need the help too.
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    Jan 17, 2009 3:17 AM GMT
    I don't think most people have figured out yet what a mess we are in. The goal right now is to stop the slide. Hopefully that will happen by the end of the year but we really are in uncharted territory and the econ folks are just making this up as they go along. No one really knows what's going to "work", either in terms of how much to spend or how to spend it.

    People are also going to be surprised (and disappointed) that our economy is simply not "coming back" to the way it was. The stock market was as much of a bubble as was real estate.We won't see those numbers again for years. Our economy will "prosper" again but its going to be a different kind of prosperity, more social (improved infrastructure, health care, etc) and less consumer (houses, cars, toys).
  • coolarmydude

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    Jan 17, 2009 3:31 AM GMT
    dkings56 said, "I don't think most people have figured out yet what a mess we are in. The goal right now is to stop the slide. Hopefully that will happen by the end of the year but we really are in uncharted territory and the econ folks are just making this up as they go along. No one really knows what's going to "work", either in terms of how much to spend or how to spend it.

    People are also going to be surprised (and disappointed) that our economy is simply not "coming back" to the way it was. The stock market was as much of a bubble as was real estate.We won't see those numbers again for years. Our economy will "prosper" again but its going to be a different kind of prosperity, more social (improved infrastructure, health care, etc) and less consumer (houses, cars, toys)."



    OMG!!! You're my long, lost...icon_surprised.gif echo!!!
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    Jan 17, 2009 3:44 AM GMT
    I'm no economist, but it depends where exactly the money is coming from. If the Federal Reserve is printing the money out of thin air, then no. That would only inflate the currency and reduce the buying power against commodities. If it's through widespread taxation, then no. Taking money from the masses to bail out corporations that (supposedly) sustain our economy is like eating your own shit to avoid going hungry. If it's coming from foreign financial aid, then no. That only throws us further in debt, jeopardizes our position in the political theatre, and our payback power is reduced in the future because of inflation.
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    Jan 17, 2009 3:45 AM GMT
    Coolarmydude wrote: OMG!!! You're my long, lost... echo!!!

    LOL... My partner gets tired of my "doom and gloom" so I thought I would just share it here instead.
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    Jan 17, 2009 4:04 AM GMT
    You want to see an economy that's in the sh*t try Zimbabwe - inflation is so out of control there the Reserve Bank has now released a $100 trillion note!
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    Jan 17, 2009 4:05 AM GMT
    jrsmelb saidYou want to see an economy that's in the sh*t try Zimbabwe - inflation is so out of control there the Reserve Bank has now released a $100 trillion note!


    ..are you serious?..
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    Jan 17, 2009 4:43 AM GMT


    We're all doomed! DOOMED I say!!!
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    Jan 19, 2009 11:18 AM GMT
    If they spend it on much needed infrastructure projects and not pork barrel projects, then it will do some good. I am sure there are a lot of bridges and roads in the US that need repair. They just need to send the money to the States to spend it. Any quick tax rebates like last years will not do much initially, people will probably spend it on getting out of debt (which in the long-term is a good thing).

    The scary thing is the size of the government deficit being over $1 trillion dollars a year for a period of years with the baby boomers aging and entitlements spending looming next decade. Eventually the US Government is going to have to figure out a way to cut back its' spending and get back to surpluses. The profligate spending and tax cuts in the past 8 years by the Bush administration seem even stupider now then they did then.
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    Jan 19, 2009 2:52 PM GMT
    Seeing this thread earlier I wanted to comment and then did not. Can't resist, I am just dumb that way.

    This convergence of events is traceable to two big causes. The first is monetary policy (the active pursuit of devaluation of the U.S. Dollar which was inevitably destined to correct). The second is the price of petroleum.

    The unexpected consequences are fundamental. What I see is that the post war concept of economies of conveniences (beginning with Daniel Keith Ludwig's building the first supertankers in Kobe Japan after WWII) seems to me to have come to an end. The postwar "middle-class" aspiration is now virtually a global expectation.

    No one will ever believe that macro economic factors in China have no effect on people in Kansas, or vice versa, ever again.

    That these events converge now is pretty incredible. President Bush leaves town with the last vestiges of the Kennedy-Nixon election of 1960. That long night of Hoover, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Bush II seems like it might finally be over.

    Having been born in 1964, this is the historical moment of my lifetime. As far as I am concerned all bets are off as to what the post cold-war globally integrated economic and social landscape is going to look like.

    My biggest worry is if the Chinese economy can be brought in for some kind of a soft landing from this period of unprecedented growth. The collapse of the Chinese economic miracle and the occidental schadenfreude that would almost inevitably go with that would have unbelievably destructive consequences. That is what I hope we can avoid.
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    Jan 19, 2009 2:56 PM GMT
    LOL no way....it's a drop in the bucket. The USA is broke. End of issue. All the Fed can do is buy bullshit paper from the banks and monetize it. First a probable depression, then raging inflation later ugh. Prepare boys.
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    Jan 20, 2009 2:18 AM GMT
    TJ85016 saidLOL no way....it's a drop in the bucket. The USA is broke. End of issue. All the Fed can do is buy bullshit paper from the banks and monetize it. First a probable depression, then raging inflation later ugh. Prepare boys.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You wouldn't be pessimistic now wouldja ???? :-) LOL !!!! We'll definately go over some rough times, but let yourself be hopefull because I really believe that the world players will work together for everyones sake, and we'll avoid by urgent efforts here at home the scenerio you describe.
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    Jan 20, 2009 4:18 AM GMT
    800 Billion enough of an Economic Stumulus Package to do any good?

    well...it's certainly going to stimulate "some" pocket books...but assuredly not the ones it is claimed to help.
    The Bushies had to grab that last bit of "china" on the way out the door...ya know. ;)

    there's been a LOT of money "off the books" for a decade or so, and after some of the bankers and politicians got caught dipping into it and keeping it off the books to make personal money from it ( even though it wasn't theirs and pretty much amounts to fleecing and stealing)...then the people that put them to the wall ( Madam Wu and Xie Xuren, Ho Chin-Chin, and Vince Chang to name a few...not to mention the Mei Hua Family) basically said " well then, you had better start bringing it up from the proverbial "basement" or there is going to be some real hell to pay. So these wonderful politicians and their "in pocket" bankers got nervous but didn't want to bring the money "onto the books" because then they would have to EXPLAIN to the nation/public WHY they have been keeping it off the books and why it has not been used to create national wealth instead of a very few people's personal wealth. (and they are up to their Texas cowboy boots in it...or Maine snowshoes, or Florida sandals...what have you.)
    So low and behold...this all came about. It's a way of bringing some of the money back onto the books....to cover the stealing that has been going on - to make even more money with "fuzzy" accounting and "emergency funds" (for who !?), and to save face. Sounds odd...but it worked didn't it.Of course this is highly unethical, and stealing...but hey...nobody knows any better, right?
    Sound crazy? Yah...it is.
    And of course...the moneys gained from a decade or more of stealing from the American people basically is not going to be returned for sure.
    So this is a nice way to "save face" for the guilty parties...now isn't it.
    They said..."well then we will have an emergency and tell the public this is why all of this money is appearing all of a sudden. And it will make us look like we really care and oh won't this be a handy little story. The public will buy it if we sell it right and have the key players (some of their "darling" banks) cooperate. (But those bankers still managed to keep some fabulous bonuses and pensions..didn't they...why you ask? Come on now...follow the money.
    So they played us and knew we'd buy it. And we did. How nice.
    Another benefit to an added little feature in all this. Since Paulsen left Goldman Sachs and became Treasury Secretary..he has been working on this for a long time because he has been setting himself up to sort of become a banking "czar" and get the golden "blank check". He's been working on this for a while. And it worked for him for the most part. How lovely.
    And now the government gets to decide which banks they like and which ones they don't due to this NEW system. Now that's a slippery slope now isn't it.

    So kids...there you have it in a nutshell. It's more involved than this, but that's an extremely basic overview of our beloved leaders at the helm.

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    Jan 20, 2009 4:24 AM GMT
    realifedad said
    TJ85016 saidLOL no way....it's a drop in the bucket. The USA is broke. End of issue. All the Fed can do is buy bullshit paper from the banks and monetize it. First a probable depression, then raging inflation later ugh. Prepare boys.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You wouldn't be pessimistic now wouldja ???? :-) LOL !!!! We'll definately go over some rough times, but let yourself be hopefull because I really believe that the world players will work together for everyones sake, and we'll avoid by urgent efforts here at home the scenerio you describe.


    No way to avoid it....we are totally fucked....debt liquidation=depression or nasty inflation. I belive we will see both. I AM NOT A PESSIMIST....I wanna cover my butt (and my friends and family) and know what's around the corner.

    I could explain why for hours, but it's inevitable that things are gonna get grim....sorry, but I'd rather know than be surprised.
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    Jan 20, 2009 4:59 AM GMT
    addition to my above post:

    so when they tell you the sky is falling and there is no money out there.
    Laugh. Laugh loud. Look 'em square in the eyes and say "bullshit".
    It's there alright. And PLENTY of it. It's just that a small few have decided they don't want anyone else to have it. And of course...he who controls the purse strings, controls policy. So we have a new way of doing business these days. The previous "market system" didn't put enough personal cash into a few people's coffers apparently. They wanted more..and the control to go with it.
    My advice: Watch them like a hawk, read between the lines, follow the money, and listen closely at what is NOT being said.

    and even more interesting...the general public probably could not even get their minds around how much money is STILL off the books, and STILL being negotiated...it would boggle their minds...but there you have it. High finance...low ethics.

    It's fun to watch.
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    Jan 20, 2009 5:21 AM GMT
    Follow the money? It'll vanish without a trace.
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    Jan 20, 2009 5:28 AM GMT
    oh there is always a trace.

    but now the TRACE is managed or "governed" by the people who just bought access to it.

    LOL ! now ain't THAT a pisser !
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