IMO, Something Is So Unacceptable about Jesus Becoming God (An Unexamined Christian Life Is Not Worth Living: We Have to Think about These Things)

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    Dec 04, 2014 2:42 AM GMT
    My minister told us Sunday that the crucifixion of Jesus through people for a loop. Jesus told John the Baptist, Jesus told his own disciples, Jesus told a man he to whom he gave sight that Jesus was the Son of Man. The crucifixion put an end to that claim. So, if circumstances make Jesus fail as the Son of Man on his throne, Son of Man at the side of the Power, what justifies making Jesus more than the Son of Man but God, the Power?

    That Jesus became God is sort of illogical from a merit perspective. Basically, the minister says, Isaiah 52 and 53 is how this happened.

    The Christians were thrown for a loop by Jesus being crucified before Jesus reigned and his 12 disciples judged the 12 tribes. So, they found Isaiah 52 and 53 which requires that the suffering servant be exalted. So, if you're a failed Son of Man, you have to get exalted, promoted, above a job grade that didn't get its mission/objectives fulfilled.

    I'm having a little trouble buying into this. Second, the Isaiah passage answers the question why does very bad things happen to innocent people: because God not only makes his servant Job suffer but he does it again in Isaiah. God cannot get enough of this "injustice."

    Jesus deferred to a higher power in the gospels. Something is so unacceptable about Jesus becoming God.
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    Dec 04, 2014 2:49 AM GMT
    especially after the destruction of the Temple and the siege of Rome

    Who's buying that?

    Jesus was a teacher and a healer; and, there's power in the name of Jesus. That cannot be denied. Even Jewish rabbis during the first century knew the magical power of Jesus' name and would prefer, for example, a son to die than to be healed by the name of Jesus.

    Jesus is God because of his mystical and magical powers?

    The Babylonian Talmud says that was a character fault of Jesus: He went to Egypt, and with the powers he acquired, he thought he was God.
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    Dec 04, 2014 1:42 PM GMT
    Reply to my minister who spoke about this in his sermon last Sunday, 11/30/2014 which you can see by going to

    www.hpumc.org
    Click Worship
    click Kerygma
    Click past sermons to play the video for 11/30

    Hi,

    People had trouble dealing with the crucifixion of one who 1) told John the Baptist he (Jesus) was the one for whom he waited, 2) told the man healed of blindness, the one speaking with you and the one you now see is the Son of Man ...

    Walt, you mentioned the difficulties the first generation had making sense of the crucifixion of the Son of Man before he came into his temporal kingdom. If one reads Josephus, catching one of his arcane references, Josephus feels Jesus’ early claims about being the Son of Man led Israel astray.

    I have this explained in an upcoming YouTube video.

    You also say that when Jesus becomes God after the above disappointment, we were not dealing with systematic theology. It definitely is not systematic to move Jesus from sitting next to the Power (and Jesus did not successfully sit next to the power, given the above) to being the Power of God.

    What makes Jesus deifi-able, is his sayings, is his healings (and the healings in the name of Jesus), even though he did not reign over Israel with his 12 disciples judging the 12 tribes, let alone the world.

    Moving Jesus from next to God to being God and moving Jesus’ sphere of influence from Israel to the world is not systematic, worthy of merit, or correct theology. At some point we *do* have to be systematic.

    You say the resurrection redeems Jesus to meriting exaltation to God.

    Steve
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 04, 2014 10:00 PM GMT
    I have a completely different approach. I am much more concerned with the Summary of the Law wherein Jesus asserted that the two most important laws are to love God and to love our neighbors. Regarding the numerous details in the Bible, some are true and some are not. We cannot change that, so why be unduly concerned with it?

    Put the emphasis on the Summary of the Law. Be concerned with whether you treat other people accordingly, and whether other people show love and respect for their fellow human beings.
  • SargeKO

    Posts: 42

    Dec 05, 2014 1:14 AM GMT
    The Christian Triune God is a blessed and difficult concept for humans to comprehend. Start with the Niceness Creed.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 05, 2014 2:34 AM GMT
    SargeFight saidThe Christian Triune God is a blessed and difficult concept for humans to comprehend. Start with the Niceness Creed.


    I assume that you mean the Nicene Creed. It was adopted in 325 at the first ecumenical council of Nicaea.
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    Dec 05, 2014 6:39 PM GMT
    StephenOABC saidMy minister told us Sunday that the crucifixion of Jesus through people for a loop. ...


    And all this time I thought it was a camel who did the trick through the eye of a needle.
  • SargeKO

    Posts: 42

    Dec 05, 2014 10:54 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    SargeFight saidThe Christian Triune God is a blessed and difficult concept for humans to comprehend. Start with the Niceness Creed.


    I assume that you mean the Nicene Creed. It was adopted in 325 at the first ecumenical council of Nicaea.


    Damn spell checker!
  • Rowing_Ant

    Posts: 1504

    Dec 06, 2014 7:10 PM GMT
    Well no, Jesus *isn't* God. Jesus was a human being who fulfilled the function/role of the Christ. i.e the chosen one.

    His death on the cross shows us that living a life of love and discipleship is risky, is dangerous and can end in death. Love is so powerful it is worth dying for.

    Jesus died and was burried but the Christ consciousness lives on. Jesus died but love will triumph. It has to triumph because God is love and love is of God. Love will always out.

    Jesus was a great prophet of the human condition; but he is one of many prophets. God did not stop speaking or acting when the bible was compiled: God is still speaking today, right now, through the "still small voice of calm" (as Longfellow called it) within us all and through the words and deeds of prophetic men and women dead and alive; through the work of artists, musicians, scientists.

    As Michael Servetus wrote:

    "God dwells in the spirit, and God is the spirit;
    God dwells in fire, and God is fire.
    God dwells in the light, and God is light.
    God is in the mind, inhabits the mind, and God is the mind itself.
    Our soul is a certain lamp of God. It is like a spark of God’s Spirit, and image of God’s wisdom; created, to be sure, but most like that spiritual wisdom and placed within it, having an inborn luminescence of divinity, a spark of that primary wisdom, and the very spirit of divinity. The spirit of divinity is placed within man, even after Adam’s sin, so testifies God himself...
    In the very fruits of the earth, in animals, stones, pearls, metals, treasures, springs, rivers, wells, rain, clouds, thunder and lightning, and winds, God’s mystery was figured.
    In the food of Paradise, in the manna, in Aaron’s staff, in the wooden tabernacle, in the bronze serpent, in the ark of the covenant, in the vessels of gold, silver or whatever other materials; in the stone that produces water, in the stone temple, in the angular stone, in the lion, the eagle, the turtle dove, the calf, the lamb, and all other things, Christ was adumbrated."

    But,in the end all you need is love: Love of self, love of your neighbour, love of God.
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    Dec 06, 2014 10:55 PM GMT
    Rowing_Ant said
    But,in the end all you need is love: Love of self, love of your neighbour, love of God.


    That is so incorrect. Please study the solar system in which we live, including Astrology.

    Love is Venus.
    It is not bigger planets.
    It is not the Sun.

    The Solar System Matrix of God provides Love/Venus for us to experience but it is not all one needs.

    In fact love can be detrimental.

    Examples: people who love you would rather you be a loser or sick in your bedroom than being out of the house doing well at work or enjoying yourself without them on a recuperative vacation.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 07, 2014 1:29 AM GMT
    SargeFight said
    FRE0 said
    SargeFight saidThe Christian Triune God is a blessed and difficult concept for humans to comprehend. Start with the Niceness Creed.


    I assume that you mean the Nicene Creed. It was adopted in 325 at the first ecumenical council of Nicaea.


    Damn spell checker!


    So that's what happened! These spell checkers that change things without first asking are very dangerous. I've had them make bizarre changes too. Niceness creed! Funny. I'll have to remember that.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 07, 2014 1:33 AM GMT
    Rowing_Ant saidWell no, Jesus *isn't* God. Jesus was a human being who fulfilled the function/role of the Christ. i.e the chosen one.

    His death on the cross shows us that living a life of love and discipleship is risky, is dangerous and can end in death. Love is so powerful it is worth dying for.

    Jesus died and was burried but the Christ consciousness lives on. Jesus died but love will triumph. It has to triumph because God is love and love is of God. Love will always out.

    Jesus was a great prophet of the human condition; but he is one of many prophets. God did not stop speaking or acting when the bible was compiled: God is still speaking today, right now, through the "still small voice of calm" (as Longfellow called it) within us all and through the words and deeds of prophetic men and women dead and alive; through the work of artists, musicians, scientists.

    As Michael Servetus wrote:

    "God dwells in the spirit, and God is the spirit;
    God dwells in fire, and God is fire.
    God dwells in the light, and God is light.
    God is in the mind, inhabits the mind, and God is the mind itself.
    Our soul is a certain lamp of God. It is like a spark of God’s Spirit, and image of God’s wisdom; created, to be sure, but most like that spiritual wisdom and placed within it, having an inborn luminescence of divinity, a spark of that primary wisdom, and the very spirit of divinity. The spirit of divinity is placed within man, even after Adam’s sin, so testifies God himself...
    In the very fruits of the earth, in animals, stones, pearls, metals, treasures, springs, rivers, wells, rain, clouds, thunder and lightning, and winds, God’s mystery was figured.
    In the food of Paradise, in the manna, in Aaron’s staff, in the wooden tabernacle, in the bronze serpent, in the ark of the covenant, in the vessels of gold, silver or whatever other materials; in the stone that produces water, in the stone temple, in the angular stone, in the lion, the eagle, the turtle dove, the calf, the lamb, and all other things, Christ was adumbrated."

    But,in the end all you need is love: Love of self, love of your neighbour, love of God.


    I like your post, even though it is not totally orthodox. I'm not totally orthodox either. Once I said the the priest of the Episcopal Church of which I am a member, "I don't think that I'm completely orthodox.". He replied, "Don't worry about it. No one is.". In some churches, I might have been told that I'm the devil incarnate for saying that.