9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

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    Dec 07, 2014 9:09 AM GMT
    To understand how much the situation has changed, take a look at these 9 ways the fight against AIDS has changed over the past 30 years:



    1. AIDS is no longer a “Gay Disease”

    2. We’ve had 1 person who has been functionally cured of HIV

    3. HIV is no longer a death sentence

    4. People infected with HIV can reach a point in treatment where it is very difficult for them to transmit the virus to others

    5. There is a once a day pill that is very effective at preventing HIV infection

    6. We’ve made huge progress against one of the biggest killers of people living with AIDS

    7. We have begun to find ways to coax hidden HIV out to where it can be treated

    8. We’ve come miles in fighting stigma, but there is still far to go

    9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”


    I think #8 (Stigma) is the biggest stumbling block today. You only have to look at this site to see it. Only MMTM, me and maybe a couple other guys are "out" about their HIV+ status. And we are undetectable. No other POZ guys on here! Amazing. But, considering the volume of vitriol, who wants to be harassed? I can hardly blame them for NOT wanting to join in the shit storm of blame, slander and hate.




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    Dec 07, 2014 5:10 PM GMT
    And what then? A return to the profligate, self-destructive ways of the '70s? There was a play written based on this premise several decades ago. I wish I could remember its name. Suffice to say it's not in the current repertoire of gay drama.
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    Dec 07, 2014 6:32 PM GMT
    9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

    Not if you keep encouraging guys to bareback without condoms, just because one of the guys SAYS his viral load is undetectable.

    And BTW:

    3. HIV is no longer a death sentence

    That's not a true statement. HIV can indeed still be a death sentence. Not for everyone, fortunately, not as bad as it was in the beginning, but some are still dying. I knew guys who died in 2014 of AIDS. And others who appear to be losing the battle, so that it won't surprise me when I learn they're gone, too.
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    Dec 07, 2014 6:58 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

    Not if you keep encouraging guys to bareback without condoms, just because one of the guys SAYS his viral load is undetectable.

    And BTW:

    3. HIV is no longer a death sentence

    That's not a true statement. HIV can indeed still be a death sentence. Not for everyone, fortunately, not as bad as it was in the beginning, but some are still dying. I know guys who died in 2014 of AIDS. And others who appear to be losing the battle, so that it won't surprise me when I learn they're gone, too.


    You can't possibly expect a person who has an agenda to manipulate reality to suit his world view to acknowledge the flaws in his so called evidence.

    The slut shaming and stigma these guys claim needs to be explained as their has only been frivolous accusations so far. In reality I expect more of the same so I am thinking of starting an dangerous idiot shaming thread
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    Dec 07, 2014 8:12 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

    Not if you keep encouraging guys to bareback without condoms, just because one of the guys SAYS his viral load is undetectable.

    And BTW:

    3. HIV is no longer a death sentence

    That's not a true statement.
    HIV can indeed still be a death sentence. Not for everyone, fortunately, not as bad as it was in the beginning, but some are still dying. I knew guys who died in 2014 of AIDS. And others who appear to be losing the battle, so that it won't surprise me when I learn they're gone, too.


    Technically it is a true statement, I would have said "needn't be a death sentence".

    Even for people who still are dying (late diagnosis mostly) it was only a death sentence out of misinformation, stigma and prejudice.
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    Dec 07, 2014 8:14 PM GMT
    MGINSD saidAnd what then? A return to the profligate, self-destructive ways of the '70s? There was a play written based on this premise several decades ago. I wish I could remember its name. Suffice to say it's not in the current repertoire of gay drama.


    Larry Kramer's "Normal Heart"? He calls PrEP users "Truvada Whores".....sounds like you'd agree with him. Pity.
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    Dec 07, 2014 8:22 PM GMT
    timmm55 said

    9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”


    How often are we going to have to cite these statistics?
    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/age/youth/index.html?s_cid=tw_std0141316

    "New HIV Infectionsb (Aged 13-24)
    In 2010, youth made up 17% of the US population, but accounted for an estimated 26% (12,200) of all new HIV infections (47,500) in the United States."

    The young are vastly overrepresented in new HIV cases (not many of the 13 year olds are sexually active).
    It is predominantly a gay male disease. And condoms are more effective than Truvada.

    This is just more bullshit. In the old days you had pos guys (or guys that just didn't care) saying "well, he didn't ask me about my status" after fucking guys that where completely new on the scene and now they seem to be going over to "well, he should have been on Truvada if didn't want HIV and was going to follow my bareback cue".
    PS this is not all guys, not all pos guys, but the ones that are assholes.

    People always find ways to justify their own shitty behaviour. "A guy was cured" through a procedure so dangerous and with so many complications that they only perform it when they are 95% sure that would die real soon otherwise.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Dec 07, 2014 8:28 PM GMT
    nope, it mutates too fast

    same reason there's no cure for flu (or measles and small pox for that matter)

    a virus is almost impossible to get rid of
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    Dec 07, 2014 8:34 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

    Not if you keep encouraging guys to bareback without condoms, just because one of the guys SAYS his viral load is undetectable.




    That's what makes you a stigmatizing asshole. I don't care how many bike rides you do, or how much you contribute, NOTHING makes your mean spirited claims valid.

    I encourage people to follow CDC and ACON protocols.
    I've posted it several times. Both (and I) say to use condoms for unknown status hook-ups.

    A liar is a liar. It has no effect on the effectiveness of PrEP, ART, TasP, or condoms.
    If someone lies about being Negative or being Undetectable, it doesn't make actual Negative or Undetectable people liars.

    You seem to equate Undetectables as liars. YET YOU lie about me, about MMTM, people on TasP, and anyone who (WHO, CDC, ACON) who disagrees with you. Agendas and conspiracy run rampant in your mind.

  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 07, 2014 8:41 PM GMT
    timmm55 said
    Art_Deco said9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

    Not if you keep encouraging guys to bareback without condoms, just because one of the guys SAYS his viral load is undetectable.




    That's what makes you a stigmatizing asshole. I don't care how many bike rides you do, or how much you contribute, NOTHING makes your mean spirited claims valid.

    I encourage people to follow CDC and ACON protocols.
    I've posted it several times. Both (and I) say to use condoms for unknown status hook-ups.

    A liar is a liar. It has no effect on the effectiveness of PrEP, ART, TasP, or condoms.
    If someone lies about being Negative or being Undetectable, it doesn't make actual Negative or Undetectable people liars.

    You seem to equate Undetectables as liars. YET YOU lie about me, about MMTM, people on TasP, and anyone who (WHO, CDC, ACON) who disagrees with you. Agendas and conspiracy run rampant in your mind.



    It is not mean-spirited; it is simply being realistic. There is a difference.

    Progress will not be made unless we can objectively discuss problems.
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    Dec 07, 2014 8:47 PM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 said


    The slut shaming and stigma these guys claim needs to be explained as their has only been frivolous accusations so far. In reality I expect more of the same so I am thinking of starting an dangerous idiot shaming thread



    Frivolous Accusations?

    Stigma and Discrimination Are Killing Gay Men -- News From the International AIDS Conference

    "In the United States, gay and bisexual men account for 63 percent of new HIV infections and 78 of diagnoses among all newly infected men, reports the Centers for Disease Control. As rates for other groups were falling, from 2008 to 2010, new HIV infections increased 22 percent among young gay and bisexual men and 12 percent among gay and bisexual men overall.

    And these are the groups that are most often ignored, shamed, stigmatized and discriminated against, even by the laws that are supposed to protect them. Globally, 76 countries criminalize same sex activity. In a study of 4,000 MSM globally, 1 in 12 reported being arrested or convicted of same sex behavior, noted San Francisco researcher Glen-Milo Santos. Sub-Saharan Africa had the highest rate at 24 percent. The same research shows that getting tangled with the law results in less access to medical care."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lindavillarosa/stigma-and-discrimination_b_5638273.html

    That you could call stigma frivolous says a lot.
  • NerdLifter

    Posts: 1509

    Dec 07, 2014 8:54 PM GMT
    As long as we can all agree: use a condom, always.
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    Dec 07, 2014 9:07 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    timmm55 said
    Art_Deco said9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

    Not if you keep encouraging guys to bareback without condoms, just because one of the guys SAYS his viral load is undetectable.




    That's what makes you a stigmatizing asshole. I don't care how many bike rides you do, or how much you contribute, NOTHING makes your mean spirited claims valid.

    I encourage people to follow CDC and ACON protocols.
    I've posted it several times. Both (and I) say to use condoms for unknown status hook-ups.

    A liar is a liar. It has no effect on the effectiveness of PrEP, ART, TasP, or condoms.
    If someone lies about being Negative or being Undetectable, it doesn't make actual Negative or Undetectable people liars.

    You seem to equate Undetectables as liars. YET YOU lie about me, about MMTM, people on TasP, and anyone who (WHO, CDC, ACON) who disagrees with you. Agendas and conspiracy run rampant in your mind.



    It is not mean-spirited; it is simply being realistic. There is a difference.

    Progress will not be made unless we can objectively discuss problems.


    Then you haven't seen what Art Deco writes.

    If you think it is realistic to call me: dangerous, on a BB agenda, "I should be "zapped", reported to health authorities, a maniac, removed from this site, and a long list of other insulting and untrue behaviors, then you are just as prejudiced as he is. I don't think you've read all his shit. It's mean.

    From DAY 1 all I've done is suggest that some couples or people do not need to rely on condoms. Early on Art Deco called the Partners Study BAD SCIENCE" and Dr. Fauci a hack....without knowing anything about either.

    Since then, virtually every Health Organization IN THE WORLD has agreed with the Partner's Study, the Swiss Statement and many others.

    Most recently Australia (ACON). They at one time dismissed the Swiss Statement, saying there would be a 10 fold increase in HIV. Not only did that NOT happen, HIV infections were reduced. AND, more importantly Australia since changed it's position....IN FAVOR OF TasP et al.

    I would be more than happy to have a reasonable scientific, medical discussion. I've tried. If Art Deco had his way I'd of been silenced by now.
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    Dec 07, 2014 9:10 PM GMT
    timmm55 said
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 said

    The slut shaming and stigma these guys claim needs to be explained as their has only been frivolous accusations so far. In reality I expect more of the same so I am thinking of starting an dangerous idiot shaming thread

    Frivolous Accusations?

    Stigma and Discrimination Are Killing Gay Men -- News From the International AIDS Conference

    "In the United States, gay and bisexual men account for 63 percent of new HIV infections and 78 of diagnoses among all newly infected men, reports the Centers for Disease Control. As rates for other groups were falling, from 2008 to 2010, new HIV infections increased 22 percent among young gay and bisexual men and 12 percent among gay and bisexual men overall.

    And these are the groups that are most often ignored, shamed, stigmatized and discriminated against, even by the laws that are supposed to protect them. Globally, 76 countries criminalize same sex activity. In a study of 4,000 MSM globally, 1 in 12 reported being arrested or convicted of same sex behavior, noted San Francisco researcher Glen-Milo Santos. Sub-Saharan Africa had the highest rate at 24 percent. The same research shows that getting tangled with the law results in less access to medical care."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lindavillarosa/stigma-and-discrimination_b_5638273.html

    That you could call stigma frivolous says a lot.

    You are using the false straw man of stigma, to deflect attention from the bad medical advice you are putting out. This has nothing to do with stigma - it has everything to do with disseminating incorrect medical information.

    And I would like to know how I stigmatize people with HIV? I willingly partnered with a poz guy in 2002, as well you have been told before. Do many negative guys do that? Then or now?

    And I work regularly with the HIV/AIDS community. I attended World AIDS Day last week, to view the AIDS Quilt my husband arranged to have displayed, as well as went to a fundraiser the next night, and I attend another fundraiser this Tuesday night. I volunteer my time & talents, donate my money. And you really think I stigmatize the HIV/AIDS community?

    I care for the HIV/AIDS community rather than stigmatize it, so much so that I detest dangerous misinformation being spread, that puts naive & uninfected guys at greater risk. I promote HIV education that dismisses the kinds of bad & misleading information you post here. And removing the HIV stigma is part of that education process.

    You are as totally off-base about me as you are about your misinterpreted HIV facts. And I don't seem to be alone here in that assessment.
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    Dec 07, 2014 9:13 PM GMT
    NerdLifter saidAs long as we can all agree: use a condom, always.


    53% don't.

    1) A moralist would say: they MUST! It's immoral not to! Shame them for not doing so!

    2) A scientist would say: Why aren't they? And what do we have to do to prevent infections regardless.

    Which actually works? it isn't #1.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 07, 2014 9:33 PM GMT
    timmm55 said
    FRE0 said
    timmm55 said
    Art_Deco said9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

    Not if you keep encouraging guys to bareback without condoms, just because one of the guys SAYS his viral load is undetectable.




    That's what makes you a stigmatizing asshole. I don't care how many bike rides you do, or how much you contribute, NOTHING makes your mean spirited claims valid.

    I encourage people to follow CDC and ACON protocols.
    I've posted it several times. Both (and I) say to use condoms for unknown status hook-ups.

    A liar is a liar. It has no effect on the effectiveness of PrEP, ART, TasP, or condoms.
    If someone lies about being Negative or being Undetectable, it doesn't make actual Negative or Undetectable people liars.

    You seem to equate Undetectables as liars. YET YOU lie about me, about MMTM, people on TasP, and anyone who (WHO, CDC, ACON) who disagrees with you. Agendas and conspiracy run rampant in your mind.



    It is not mean-spirited; it is simply being realistic. There is a difference.

    Progress will not be made unless we can objectively discuss problems.


    Then you haven't seen what Art Deco writes.

    If you think it is realistic to call me: dangerous, on a BB agenda, "I should be "zapped", reported to health authorities, a maniac, removed from this site, and a long list of other insulting and untrue behaviors, then you are just as prejudiced as he is. I don't think you've read all his shit. It's mean.

    From DAY 1 all I've done is suggest that some couples or people do not need to rely on condoms. Early on Art Deco called the Partners Study BAD SCIENCE" and Dr. Fauci a hack....without knowing anything about either.

    Since then, virtually every Health Organization IN THE WORLD has agreed with the Partner's Study, the Swiss Statement and many others.

    Most recently Australia (ACON). They at one time dismissed the Swiss Statement, saying there would be a 10 fold increase in HIV. Not only did that NOT happen, HIV infections were reduced. AND, more importantly Australia since changed it's position....IN FAVOR OF TasP et al.

    I would be more than happy to have a reasonable scientific, medical discussion. I've tried. If Art Deco had his way I'd of been silenced by now.


    My comment was limited to only one of his posts. I am not commenting here on his other posts. However, I herewith point out that even a stopped clock is right twice per day.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 07, 2014 9:36 PM GMT
    NerdLifter saidAs long as we can all agree: use a condom, always.


    Always? For all kinds of sex?

    Does that include frottage, mutual JO, and oral, or are you one of those who thinks that the only real kind of sex is anal?
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    Dec 07, 2014 9:42 PM GMT
    Art Deco says: "You are using the false straw man of stigma, to deflect attention from the bad medical advice you are putting out. This has nothing to do with stigma - it has everything to do with disseminating incorrect medical information."


    OK asshole WHERE IS MY BAD MEDICAL ADVISE?

    Read the CDC's "What Steps Can I Take To Protect My Partner(s)?"

    http://www.cdc.gov/actagainstaids/campaigns/hivtreatmentworks/getincare/protectothers.html


    Read the ACON statement:
    What is safe sex?
    http://www.acon.org.au/sites/default/files/What-is-Safe-Sex-Position-2014.pdf

    Read Dr. Julio Montaner:
    National Summit to Improve Access to HCV Testing, Treatment, and Cure CDC, Atlanta, June 17-­‐18, 2014

    http://www.viralhepatitisaction.org/sites/default/files/hcvsummit_061814_montaner.pdf


    This CURRENT medical advice, not older than 12 months. Find a PROFESSIONAL OPINION contrary to to CDC or ACON. (I've been waiting, you said once you were waiting for the CDC to say it was OK for Undetectable/Neg to have condomless sex. It's there, with caveats.) Not your dim witted views.

    If I am disseminating correct information (and I am!) what does that make YOU? It's a true case of STIGMA over irrational fears.
    You deflect attention from your prejudices by always talking about your ex, your bike rides and your contributions.
    You do it so often it seems a cry for attention. And obvious sympathy.

    You need the sympathy. You depend on this site to be a popularity contest, not facts.


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    Dec 07, 2014 9:42 PM GMT
    NerdLifter saidAs long as we can all agree: use a condom, always.


    According to the OP, there's no need to use condoms now that PrEP is available. It's 100% effective against transmission, so stop wearing your rubbers, boys.

    OP has all of the answers. icon_lol.gif
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    Dec 07, 2014 9:45 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    timmm55 said
    FRE0 said
    timmm55 said
    Art_Deco said9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”

    Not if you keep encouraging guys to bareback without condoms, just because one of the guys SAYS his viral load is undetectable.




    That's what makes you a stigmatizing asshole. I don't care how many bike rides you do, or how much you contribute, NOTHING makes your mean spirited claims valid.

    I encourage people to follow CDC and ACON protocols.
    I've posted it several times. Both (and I) say to use condoms for unknown status hook-ups.

    A liar is a liar. It has no effect on the effectiveness of PrEP, ART, TasP, or condoms.
    If someone lies about being Negative or being Undetectable, it doesn't make actual Negative or Undetectable people liars.

    You seem to equate Undetectables as liars. YET YOU lie about me, about MMTM, people on TasP, and anyone who (WHO, CDC, ACON) who disagrees with you. Agendas and conspiracy run rampant in your mind.



    It is not mean-spirited; it is simply being realistic. There is a difference.

    Progress will not be made unless we can objectively discuss problems.


    Then you haven't seen what Art Deco writes.

    If you think it is realistic to call me: dangerous, on a BB agenda, "I should be "zapped", reported to health authorities, a maniac, removed from this site, and a long list of other insulting and untrue behaviors, then you are just as prejudiced as he is. I don't think you've read all his shit. It's mean.

    From DAY 1 all I've done is suggest that some couples or people do not need to rely on condoms. Early on Art Deco called the Partners Study BAD SCIENCE" and Dr. Fauci a hack....without knowing anything about either.

    Since then, virtually every Health Organization IN THE WORLD has agreed with the Partner's Study, the Swiss Statement and many others.

    Most recently Australia (ACON). They at one time dismissed the Swiss Statement, saying there would be a 10 fold increase in HIV. Not only did that NOT happen, HIV infections were reduced. AND, more importantly Australia since changed it's position....IN FAVOR OF TasP et al.

    I would be more than happy to have a reasonable scientific, medical discussion. I've tried. If Art Deco had his way I'd of been silenced by now.


    My comment was limited to only one of his posts. I am not commenting here on his other posts. However, I herewith point out that even a stopped clock is right twice per day.


    Not if I take the clock hands off. And his stigma, accusations and horribly out of date medical advice is NEVER right, not once a day.
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    Dec 07, 2014 9:45 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    NerdLifter saidAs long as we can all agree: use a condom, always.

    Always? For all kinds of sex?

    Does that include frottage, mutual JO, and oral, or are you one of those who thinks that the only real kind of sex is anal?

    When I was with my poz partner he always wore a condom when I blew him. I have bad gums that often bleed after brushing, that may be an HIV entry point. He also wore a condom when he topped me, needless to say. But I wasn't afraid or reluctant. No stigma.

    I did my risk assessment, and knew there was a slim element of danger. Every negative guy should do the same thing. If the risk is unacceptable then decline the sex. The important thing is to know what that risk is, so you're making an informed decision. This is where education comes in.
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    Dec 07, 2014 9:45 PM GMT
    credo said
    NerdLifter saidAs long as we can all agree: use a condom, always.


    According to the OP, there's no need to use condoms now that PrEP is available. It's 100% effective against transmission, so stop wearing your rubbers, boys.

    OP has all of the answers. icon_lol.gif


    Except I never said that.....dumb shit!

    If you read the links I provided, you wouldn't say such nonsense.
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    Dec 07, 2014 9:47 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    FRE0 said
    NerdLifter saidAs long as we can all agree: use a condom, always.

    Always? For all kinds of sex?

    Does that include frottage, mutual JO, and oral, or are you one of those who thinks that the only real kind of sex is anal?

    When I was with my poz partner he always wore a condom when I blew him. I have bad gums that often bleed after brushing, that may be an HIV entry point. He also wore a condom when he topped me, needless to say. But I wasn't afraid or reluctant.

    I did my risk assessment, and knew there was a slim element of danger. Every negative guy should do the same thing. If the risk is unacceptable then decline the sex. The important thing is to know what that risk is, so you're making an informed decision. This is where education comes in.


    I don't give a shit about anecdotal evidence from 20 years ago. Yeah, you had a POZ partner, you should get a medal. pfft

    Sympathy again????????
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    Dec 07, 2014 10:25 PM GMT
    grofte said
    timmm55 said

    9. An AIDS free generation is “within reach”




    This is just more bullshit. In the old days you had pos guys (or guys that just didn't care) saying "well, he didn't ask me about my status" after fucking guys that where completely new on the scene and now they seem to be going over to "well, he should have been on Truvada if didn't want HIV and was going to follow my bareback cue".



    AMAZING bit of, not just shaming, but actual causality! Nice how you made the POZ guy nefarious out of convenience. But if you did a scintilla of research most POZ guys serosort POZ to POZ.

    It's neither in your story (and it is a story, nothing factual). It's usually the "Negative" guys who haven't been tested in a year. THEY are spreading HIV. Yeah....people like you.

    Interesting new twist of shaming. As "they" are using non-PrEPs in their desire to convert! How insidious. God! Us POZ and Undetectable people are heinous!
    Your disclaimer of "not all" is spectacularly stigmatizing!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 07, 2014 10:34 PM GMT
    Get back to basics:

    1. If you are HIV negative and wish to prevent the disease, wear a condom.

    2. If you are HIV positive and wish to prevent the disease from propagating, wear a condom and remain compliant with your medication regimen and/or medical surveillance.


    These recommendations have been considered best medical practices for at least 20 years.