Collectivism in the gay community

  • 1AlanZSky

    Posts: 1505

    Dec 21, 2014 11:09 PM GMT
    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-10-27-Depression_culture_N.htm

    Old article, but I think both have their good and bad points. When it comes to gay rights, individualism trumps. The gay man feels alone so he feels more like an individual compared with straight men. A small percentage of men in the world are publicly gay i.e. out. If you think of Asian countries where collectivism rules it is hard to be gay because there is hardly any visible gay rights movement. Until recently like in the last 10 years. How many gay men are out in Hollywood or Bollywood?

    Depression (in the article) occurs prevalently in the West because there is no social support. Hardly there is social support when gay men are in the minority anyway. Nevertheless there is support. It is there and it is time to be collectivist when it comes to being gay.

    Agree or disagree? Maybe the question is meaningless.

    http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/vietnam-celebrate-3rd-annual-viet-pride-festival-and-ride-august160714

    Just found this one...

    "‘For a collectivistic and patriarchal society like Vietnam, homophobia persists, often times in very subtle forms, but deep-rooted and internalized,’ Viet Pride director Nguyen Thanh Tam said"

    It is difficult but not unattainable for straights and gays to come together.

    Ah, recently the movie The Imitation Game came out and I saw it. Many people cried then. Only recently has Alan Turing been recognized and it is about time.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 22, 2014 1:23 AM GMT
    Gay men unfortunately tear each other apart, even when we're trying to defend our small collective. Look what happened to RJ.
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    Dec 22, 2014 7:15 AM GMT
    A lot of mentally impotent people want to impose the idea of "collective" on gay people out of their own personal and political ambitions. Too bad for such imbeciles, we are not going to give these pigs this opportunity.

  • FuerteC

    Posts: 588

    Dec 22, 2014 8:08 AM GMT
    misery_is_back saidA lot of mentally impotent people want to impose the idea of "collective" on gay people out of their own personal and political ambitions. Too bad for such imbeciles, we are not going to give these pigs this opportunity.



    Why not?
  • NoFLFitGuy

    Posts: 44

    Dec 22, 2014 12:14 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidGay men unfortunately tear each other apart, even when we're trying to defend our small collective. Look what happened to RJ.


    Could not agree more. Our "collective" is too small for gay men to rip into bi men the way they often do. The way we sub-divide into "twink" "bears" etc and then rip into each other for no reason at all other than some perceived slight (or the real fact that all people are not always attracted to all others, be it sexual or friendship or other). We COULD support each other, if we really wanted to. But, often times, I do not think that our group really wants to.
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    Dec 22, 2014 4:00 PM GMT
    the lgbt population has episodes of depression because they lead a really difficult life. If enough people say your dirty unclean useless after a while you start believing them. see where the next generation, just coming out, having a more affirming environment, does for themselves.


  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 22, 2014 4:03 PM GMT
    misery_is_back saidA lot of mentally impotent people want to impose the idea of "collective" on gay people out of their own personal and political ambitions. Too bad for such imbeciles, we are not going to give these pigs this opportunity.


    So you're speaking for your own collective. What do you guys call yourself? Team trolls?icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Dec 22, 2014 7:05 PM GMT
    Gays experience way more pain/rejection than the average straight person. Anti gay comments are still acceptable in many places and we face rejection from friends and family members. This is just not a normal concern for your avg straight frat guy. He gets to be bold about sex and what he wants and there are thousands of movies, tv shows and stories written about straight love. To the contrary, gays don't have that. So I don't think a comparison between straights and gays is fair really when one side has a steeper hill to climb. That's why we are depressed initially.

    As for gays creating a support community and the perception that we tear each other apart, I see this as a symptom of the fact that word community might be inaccurate or set the wrong expectation. We as a group disagree on A LOT. Maybe more than we agree on...
    1. Open relationships vs closed
    2. Masc vs fem
    3. Proud vs discreet
    4. Gay vs bi
    5. Integration of straights & gays (gayborhoods/gay meccas are bad) vs separation of straights & gays (gayborhoods/gay meccas are good and needed.
    6. Melonin vs non-melonin


    Hell, even the Gay Pride celebrations cause huge disagreements amongst gays. The only area that I've seen true solidarity on is that we mostly agree that gays should have the same rights as straights. But that solidarity is diminished when so many of us are not out. We're not bad people. We're just not on the same page.
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    Dec 22, 2014 7:12 PM GMT
    ^ +1
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    Dec 22, 2014 7:15 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidGay men unfortunately tear each other apart, even when we're trying to defend our small collective. Look what happened to RJ.


    RJ isn't the Gay Community.

    Online interactions are nastier than real life----and this is true for mostly hetero forums too.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 22, 2014 7:20 PM GMT
    woodfordr saidGays experience way more pain/rejection than the average straight person. Anti gay comments are still acceptable in many places and we face rejection from friends and family members. This is just not a normal concern for your avg straight frat guy. He gets to be bold about sex and what he wants and there are thousands of movies, tv shows and stories written about straight love. To the contrary, gays don't have that. So I don't think a comparison between straights and gays is fair really when one side has a steeper hill to climb. That's why we are depressed initially.

    As for gays creating a support community and the perception that we tear each other apart, I see this as a symptom of the fact that word community might be inaccurate or set the wrong expectation. We as a group disagree on A LOT. Maybe more than we agree on...
    1. Open relationships vs closed
    2. Masc vs fem
    3. Proud vs discreet
    4. Gay vs bi
    5. Integration of straights & gays (gayborhoods/gay meccas are bad) vs separation of straights & gays (gayborhoods/gay meccas are good and needed.
    6. Melonin vs non-melonin


    Hell, even the Gay Pride celebrations cause huge disagreements amongst gays. The only area that I've seen true solidarity on is that we mostly agree that gays should have the same rights as straights. But that solidarity is diminished when so many of us are not out. We're not bad people. We're just not on the same page.

    Great post! Unfortunately, the part I put in bold isn't necessarily true. I've encountered way too many gay men who don't support marriage equality that I can't say we even mostly agree on that, although I do see less and less resistance to gay marriage overall.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 22, 2014 7:30 PM GMT
    Determinate said
    HottJoe saidGay men unfortunately tear each other apart, even when we're trying to defend our small collective. Look what happened to RJ.


    RJ isn't the Gay Community.

    Online interactions are nastier than real life----and this is true for mostly hetero forums too.

    I'm just using RJ as example. But, if anything, irl, the gay community, while outwardly friendlier, is much more amorphous and includes a lot more straight people and women. Idk if it's the site's name, or that it has a cruisy reputation, but I really don't see many of the voices that water down (fill out?) a typical gay scene. Everyone who is here seems to be a man who likes men, and in some ways our community is tighter here than anywhere else I've been.
  • NoFLFitGuy

    Posts: 44

    Dec 22, 2014 7:45 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    Determinate said
    HottJoe saidGay men unfortunately tear each other apart, even when we're trying to defend our small collective. Look what happened to RJ.


    RJ isn't the Gay Community.

    Online interactions are nastier than real life----and this is true for mostly hetero forums too.

    I'm just using RJ as example. But, if anything, irl, the gay community, while outwardly friendlier, is much more amorphous and includes a lot more straight people and women. Idk if it's the site's name, or that it has a cruisy reputation, but I really don't see many of the voices that water down (fill out?) a typical gay scene. Everyone who is here seems to be a man who likes men, and in some ways our community is tighter here than anywhere else I've been.


    After reading you posts, it has got me to wondering -- is there really a gay community, or an LGBT community, at all?

    I mean, what REALLY unites us? Only one thing - we are of a non-heteronormative sexual orientation or gender identity. Past that ... what is there that unites all of us? We are not just from one geographical location, or one ethnicity, or on religious belief, etc. We are found in more or less equal numbers in every race, creed, color, etc around the planet. That very fact is going to make our "community" (if that word can be applied) diverse to the point of -- well exactly what we see. Arguments about everything amongst ourselves, because we come from so many different backgrounds and have so many things that are not in commom between us.

    You are right. RJ really is a sub-sub group i.e. generally athletic/active men and those who are attracted to athletic/active men. There is so much of the LGBT "community" that has no representation here at all.

    IMO, all of us with a non-heteronormative orientation should be able to support the freedom of all to chose for themselves how to live their lives (even though we all too often do not do so.) But could we collectively do anything together without it breaking down quickly?
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 22, 2014 8:17 PM GMT
    NoFLFitGuy said
    HottJoe said
    Determinate said
    HottJoe saidGay men unfortunately tear each other apart, even when we're trying to defend our small collective. Look what happened to RJ.


    RJ isn't the Gay Community.

    Online interactions are nastier than real life----and this is true for mostly hetero forums too.

    I'm just using RJ as example. But, if anything, irl, the gay community, while outwardly friendlier, is much more amorphous and includes a lot more straight people and women. Idk if it's the site's name, or that it has a cruisy reputation, but I really don't see many of the voices that water down (fill out?) a typical gay scene. Everyone who is here seems to be a man who likes men, and in some ways our community is tighter here than anywhere else I've been.


    After reading you posts, it has got me to wondering -- is there really a gay community, or an LGBT community, at all?

    I mean, what REALLY unites us? Only one thing - we are of a non-heteronormative sexual orientation or gender identity. Past that ... what is there that unites all of us? We are not just from one geographical location, or one ethnicity, or on religious belief, etc. We are found in more or less equal numbers in every race, creed, color, etc around the planet. That very fact is going to make our "community" (if that word can be applied) diverse to the point of -- well exactly what we see. Arguments about everything amongst ourselves, because we come from so many different backgrounds and have so many things that are not in commom between us.

    You are right. RJ really is a sub-sub group i.e. generally athletic/active men and those who are attracted to athletic/active men. There is so much of the LGBT "community" that has no representation here at all.

    IMO, all of us with a non-heteronormative orientation should be able to support the freedom of all to chose for themselves how to live their lives (even though we all too often do not do so.) But could we collectively do anything together without it breaking down quickly?

    I definitely get a sense that there is a gay community, and I identify with the gay community more than I identify with my country, race or religion, and not just because I'm gay, but because I married a gay man!!!icon_lol.gificon_razz.gif
  • Paperless_Pen

    Posts: 573

    Dec 22, 2014 8:49 PM GMT
    "...but because I married a gay man!!"

    icon_biggrin.gif
    We can be collectivist as well as individualist.
  • 1AlanZSky

    Posts: 1505

    Dec 22, 2014 9:15 PM GMT
    Completely unrelated but anyway

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-30575560

    A seal was found.
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    Dec 23, 2014 2:06 AM GMT
    NoFLFitGuy said...After reading you posts, it has got me to wondering -- is there really a gay community, or an LGBT community, at all?

    ...But could we collectively do anything together without it breaking down quickly?


    No, we're joined only by a few objective traits (with significant gray halos around them).

    I'm perfectly OK with never being a part of a community in a static way. I will join a community temporarily when the issues suit me, and if the fellowship/collective will achieve the goal I agree with.

    I want marriage equality. I'll link arms and fight, spend money & vote to make that happen. After it does my link drops. I have no need to stand on any platform directed by any collective except those that serve my purposes.

    I was pissed that marijuana advocates joined the Occupy Wall Street movement. Even though I support marijuana legalization, I thought the mixing of the issues stained the primary objective of Holding Wall Street Accountable. Same with gay issues. Legalize gay marriage, stop advocating for Senator Warren at the same time; you'll lose the people who hate Senator Warren and weaken your marriage equality collective (as an obtuse example).
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 23, 2014 2:10 AM GMT
    mickeytopogigio said
    NoFLFitGuy said...After reading you posts, it has got me to wondering -- is there really a gay community, or an LGBT community, at all?

    ...But could we collectively do anything together without it breaking down quickly?


    No, we're joined only by a few objective traits (with significant gray halos around them).

    I'm perfectly OK with never being a part of a community in a static way. I will join a community temporarily when the issues suit me, and if the fellowship/collective will achieve the goal I agree with.

    I want marriage equality. I'll link arms and fight, spend money & vote to make that happen. After it does my link drops. I have no need to stand on any platform directed by any collective except those that serve my purposes.

    I was pissed that marijuana advocates joined the Occupy Wall Street movement. Even though I support marijuana legalization, I thought the mixing of the issues stained the primary objective of Holding Wall Street Accountable. Same with gay issues. Legalize gay marriage, stop advocating for Senator Warren at the same time; you'll lose the people who hate Senator Warren and weaken your marriage equality collective (as an obtuse example).

    Oh, go tell it to straight people.icon_evil.gif
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    Dec 23, 2014 3:17 AM GMT
    I'm sure a community exists, but I prefer to not be apart of it. I enjoy being the lone wolf icon_cool.gif
  • stratavos

    Posts: 1831

    Dec 23, 2014 5:45 AM GMT
    NoFLFitGuy said
    HottJoe saidGay men unfortunately tear each other apart, even when we're trying to defend our small collective. Look what happened to RJ.


    Could not agree more. Our "collective" is too small for gay men to rip into bi men the way they often do. The way we sub-divide into "twink" "bears" etc and then rip into each other for no reason at all other than some perceived slight (or the real fact that all people are not always attracted to all others, be it sexual or friendship or other). We COULD support each other, if we really wanted to. But, often times, I do not think that our group really wants to.



    hit the nail on the head from my observations. Those that have their EGO's left unchecked are often the issue for that. "Why should I help someone else? why aren't they helping me first?"
    ...
    then after they get that help it's "good bye see ya later" and no later unless they need more help. It's generally just selfishness.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 23, 2014 9:25 AM GMT
    Most Gay men are selfish by nature. They also take their feelings of being disconnected and excuse it as reasons for doing horrible things to others.
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    Dec 23, 2014 10:52 AM GMT
    A lot of the negative generalities attributed to gays in this thread could be said of straight people too.
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    Dec 23, 2014 1:40 PM GMT
    I don't think there is any collectivism in the gay community, except may be in an orgy or gang bang. Otherwise, every gay is on his own for a dick or an ass.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 23, 2014 3:08 PM GMT
    __morphic__ saidI don't think there is any collectivism in the gay community, except may be in an orgy or gang bang. Otherwise, every gay is on his own for a dick or an ass.

    Isn't that what this whole thread is about???icon_confused.gif
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    Dec 23, 2014 4:01 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    __morphic__ saidI don't think there is any collectivism in the gay community, except may be in an orgy or gang bang. Otherwise, every gay is on his own for a dick or an ass.

    Isn't that what this whole thread is about???icon_confused.gif

    I don't know, I missed something icon_confused.gif
    Without pictures, it's hard for me to understand.