Israel is a secular, democratic, state (gay friendly, too)

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Dec 26, 2014 7:16 PM GMT
    I know many on RJ have traveled to Israel, so I was surprised to see a comment like this and would hate to think that others share the misperception:

    xxxxxxx said
    mwolverine saidIsrael, unlike Hamastan, is a secular, democratic, state.

    yeah about as secular as the Vatican

    Sorry, but you are mistaken and obviously haven't been there.
    Israel is a mostly secular country.
    There is NO official state religion.
    Only in areas of family law do religious courts have a say.
    Not just Jewish/Rabbinical courts, but also Muslim/Sharia, Christian, Druze and Bahai courts.

    Lacking is a civil (non-religious) family law court (that's the only thing preventing gay marriage), but at least marriages performed abroad - including gay marriages - are recognized by the state. Likewise the state has recognized gay common-law marriages.

    In several respects, Israel is more secular than the USA. God isn't mentioned in its declaration of independence - or on its money. Between 15-37% of the population identifies as atheist or agnostic (compared to about 5% in the USA).

    Compared to the Vatican, I think this will suffice to underscore the differences:
    http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g293984-c108341/Tel-Aviv:Israel:Gay.Israel.html

    Further reading:

    http://harvardhumanist.org/2013/05/29/learning-from-israeli-secularism

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  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14380

    Dec 26, 2014 7:23 PM GMT

    It is also in an unfavorable light because the Israeli people keep making the horrendous mistake of reelecting that sick minded hardliner Bibi Netanyahu. That motherfucker needs to be assassinated.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Dec 26, 2014 7:31 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    It is also in an unfavorable light because the Israeli people keep making the horrendous mistake of reelecting that sick minded hardliner Bibi Netanyahu. That motherfucker needs to be assassinated.

    Which doesn't explains why this rabid Anti-Semite voiced - when Olmert was Prime Minister of Israel - that "Jews have it coming". It becomes clear that he uses Netanyahu as an effigy for Israel, and Israel as code for Jews.

    A few weeks ago he blamed the regions problems on Netanyahu (Syria? Iraq? Iran? Afghanistan? North Africa?), calling him (aka Israel/Jews) "international troublemakers" and added that he hoped "you Jews learn a hard lesson".

    The topic here is Israel's secular nature, but all roadrageRob can see and voice is his hate.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14380

    Dec 26, 2014 7:35 PM GMT
    mwolverine said
    roadbikeRob said
    It is also in an unfavorable light because the Israeli people keep making the horrendous mistake of reelecting that sick minded hardliner Bibi Netanyahu. That motherfucker needs to be assassinated.

    Which doesn't explains why this rabid Anti-Semite voiced - when Olmert was Prime Minister of Israel - that "Jews have it coming". It becomes clear that he uses Netanyahu as an effigy for Israel, and Israel as code for Jews.

    A few weeks ago he blamed the regions problems on Netanyahu (Syria? Iraq? Iran? Afghanistan? North Africa?), calling him (aka Israel/Jews) "international troublemakers" and added that he hoped "you Jews learn a hard lesson".

    The topic here is Israel's secular nature, but all roadrageRob can see and voice is his hate.
    You just keep regurgitating the same old nonsense over and over again. Is there any way that we can reboot youicon_question.gificon_rolleyes.gif
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Dec 26, 2014 7:39 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidYou just keep regurgitating the same old nonsense

    Not my fault I quote you spouting nonsense.
    Not just from years ago, but also from a few weeks ago.
    Glad you at least don't deny that you said these things.

    Now, troll, if you don't wish to discuss the topic of this thread, don't reply.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14380

    Dec 26, 2014 7:46 PM GMT
    mwolverine said
    roadbikeRob saidYou just keep regurgitating the same old nonsense

    Not my fault I quote you spouting nonsense.
    Not just from years ago, but also from a few weeks ago.
    Glad you at least don't deny that you said these things.

    Now, troll, if you don't wish to discuss the topic of this thread, don't reply.
    If anyone is the troll on here, it is you. Both you and that leftist lunatic troll, MinneapolisMotorMouth (HottJoe) are among the two most annoying, out of touch, bumbling fools on here.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Dec 26, 2014 7:49 PM GMT
    roadrageRob saidIf anyone is the troll on here, it is you. Both you and that leftist lunatic troll, MinneapolisMotorMouth (HottJoe) are among the two most annoying, out of touch, bumbling fools on here.

    ROTFL.

    Now back to this thread....
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    Dec 26, 2014 9:48 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    It is also in an unfavorable light because the Israeli people keep making the horrendous mistake of reelecting that sick minded hardliner Bibi Netanyahu. That motherfucker needs to be assassinated.
    shut up! Go rub some rogaine on your head .
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 26, 2014 9:54 PM GMT
    mwolverine saidI know many on RJ have traveled to Israel, so I was surprised to see a comment like this and would hate to think that others share the misperception:

    mwolverine said
    xxxxxxx saidIsrael, unlike Hamastan, is a secular, democratic, state.

    yeah about as secular as the Vatican

    Sorry, but you are mistaken and obviously haven't been there.
    Israel is a mostly secular country.
    There is NO official state religion.
    Only in areas of family law do religious courts have a say.
    Not just Jewish/Rabbinical courts, but also Muslim/Sharia, Christian, Druze and Bahai courts.

    Lacking is a civil (non-religious) family law court (that's the only thing preventing gay marriage), but at least marriages performed abroad - including gay marriages - are recognized by the state. Likewise the state has recognized gay common-law marriages.

    In several respects, Israel is more secular than the USA. God isn't mentioned in its declaration of independence - or on its money. Between 15-37% of the population identifies as atheist or agnostic (compared to about 5% in the USA).

    Compared to the Vatican, I think this will suffice to underscore the differences:
    http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g293984-c108341/Tel-Aviv:Israel:Gay.Israel.html

    Further reading:

    http://harvardhumanist.org/2013/05/29/learning-from-israeli-secularism

    39789710992088408259yes1130.jpg

    pride.jpg

    A-gay-parade-in-Tel-Aviv--006.jpg

    tel_aviv_city_hall_lit_rainbow_flag_colo

    2914141118.jpg

    02Blackerby_TelAviv-tmagArticle.jpg

    mideast%20israel%20palestinians%20gay%20

    jerusalem.jpg
    75% are jewish 5 % non affiliated jews . Drune arabs are loyal to isael , good portion of the beoudins and some christian arabs . Every1 has equal rights in israel .
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Dec 27, 2014 7:47 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    mwolverine said
    roadbikeRob saidYou just keep regurgitating the same old nonsense

    Not my fault I quote you spouting nonsense.
    Not just from years ago, but also from a few weeks ago.
    Glad you at least don't deny that you said these things.

    Now, troll, if you don't wish to discuss the topic of this thread, don't reply.
    If anyone is the troll on here, it is you. Both you and that leftist lunatic troll, MinneapolisMotorMouth (HottJoe) are among the two most annoying, out of touch, bumbling fools on here.

    You are very wrong about my views. I think all people should be treated equally and with respect. I don't believe in any religion. I don't see the point of holding anyone accountable for wars our ancestors fought. I have no more obligation to support any religion than I do to support white supremacy. I think it's tragic that people are not seen as individuals. I think the men who are fighting these wars are forcing people to take sides, and I'm on both sides. Everyone has the right to live where they want. I'm only interested in promoting diversity and peace, and putting an end to the strife. I don't believe people should label each other as the enemy. We're all the same. We just let these false notions of race, creed and nationality divide us. As long as we keep saying one side is right and the other is wrong, we are empowering people to justify terrorism.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14380

    Dec 27, 2014 9:40 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    roadbikeRob said
    mwolverine said
    roadbikeRob saidYou just keep regurgitating the same old nonsense

    Not my fault I quote you spouting nonsense.
    Not just from years ago, but also from a few weeks ago.
    Glad you at least don't deny that you said these things.

    Now, troll, if you don't wish to discuss the topic of this thread, don't reply.
    If anyone is the troll on here, it is you. Both you and that leftist lunatic troll, MinneapolisMotorMouth (HottJoe) are among the two most annoying, out of touch, bumbling fools on here.

    You are very wrong about my views. I think all people should be treated equally and with respect. I don't believe in any religion. I don't see the point of holding anyone accountable for wars our ancestors fought. I have no more obligation to support any religion than I do to support white supremacy. I think it's tragic that people are not seen as individuals. I think the men who are fighting these wars are forcing people to take sides, and I'm on both sides. Everyone has the right to live where they want. I'm only interested in promoting diversity and peace, and putting an end to the strife. I don't believe people should label each other as the enemy. We're all the same. We just let these false notions of race, creed and nationality divide us. As long as we keep saying one side is right and the other is wrong, we are empowering people to justify terrorism.
    No I am not wrong about your views. Your views are too leftist and unrealistic. It is like you want to live in Utopia. Well bunk Utopia doesn't exist so make due what you have on this Earth. This bullshit white supremacy that you keep regurgitating that is baseless bullshit. There is no white supremacy. You just want to hand everything on a silver platter to every damned group of people that scream poverty or discrimination. You are way too liberal for your own good. Also keep in mind that respect is only earned not handed on a silver platter. You have a bad habit of forgetting about that.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Dec 28, 2014 12:30 AM GMT
    How curious that roadrageRob wants to discuss this thread elsewhere and anything but this thread here. And he thinks someone else (hottjoe) is a troll because he misrepresents and disagrees with his views?

    We now return to this thread:

    Israel is a secular, democratic, state (gay friendly, too)

  • ASHDOD

    Posts: 1057

    Dec 28, 2014 8:49 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]roadbikeRob said[/cite]

    do you realy bvelive in the things you write?
    man i''m bewildred, i''m an israeli and a jew [secular]
    .do u see me as a monster?
    cant u belive the pics and expiriences of people who hve been here
    u have no idea how much effort we do to keep everyone safe, but u r fighting the forces of darkness so to speak ,people who cut peoples head for real ,and they rivals,no better' one thinkg they have in commun,is hate for us.
    wec re doing our best, i wish we could do more.
    am i a monster to you?
  • wesv

    Posts: 907

    Dec 28, 2014 9:54 PM GMT
    Yeah people don't understand that. I have a friend who's an Israeli citizen and I have distant relatives there. It's actually not a theological state. Israelis are more secular than people realize. If you want, you can eat a ham and cheese. Plus the biggest gay celebrations and parties are in Tel Aviv. Only Jerusalem is a little more conservative, especially among the Hasidic population.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Dec 29, 2014 1:46 AM GMT
    wesv saidYeah people don't understand that. I have a friend who's an Israeli citizen and I have distant relatives there. It's actually not a theological state. Israelis are more secular than people realize. If you want, you can eat a ham and cheese. Plus the biggest gay celebrations and parties are in Tel Aviv. Only Jerusalem is a little more conservative, especially among the Hasidic population.

    Ironically this is where all three of the religions team up. The ultra Orthodox Jews team up with Orthodox Christians and Muslims against the gays.

    Good news: we're winning!

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Jerusalem-holds-annual-Gay-Pride-Parade-after-multiple-delays-375777

    || “Jerusalem’s come a long way in my eyes in accepting gays,” she [Nita Klausner, who has 2 gay sons] said. “A lot of work has been done by the Open House – which is partially supported by the municipality – including funding for support groups, lectures, and activities during the High Holy Days for those who can’t go home to their families.”
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    Dec 29, 2014 2:45 AM GMT
    Just a note on the OP's assertion that the Israeli Declaration of Independence doesn't mention God.

    Well... It doesn't mention "God" explicitly, but in the final paragraph reference is made to "placing our trust in Tzur Yisra'el"

    The Hebrew phrase means "the Rock of Israel" (and Hebrew has no distinction between upper and lower case letters.)

    The phrase is deliberately ambiguous. For the religious folks, "Rock of Israel" is a traditional name for God, found in the daily synagogue morning prayers. But for the secularists, the phrase could be interpreted as referring to the land of Israel.

    Israel since its founding has been wrestling with the balance between it's Jewish character and it's democratic character -- and between the religious and secular aspects of its Jewish character.

    It's very soul, so to speak, is increasingly in danger as long as the parties continue to fail to establish an independent Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel based on the 1949 armistice lines with mutually agreed land swaps.

    Heaven help us if Netanyahu gets reelected.



  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Dec 29, 2014 3:05 AM GMT
    duluthrunner saidJust a note on the OP's assertion that the Israeli Declaration of Independence doesn't mention God.

    Well... It doesn't mention "God" explicitly, but in the final paragraph reference is made to "placing our trust in Tzur Yisra'el"

    The Hebrew phrase means "the Rock of Israel"

    Correct. It was a compromise, the religious parties not getting God explicitly mentioned, only this.


    duluthrunner saidIsrael since its founding has been wrestling with the balance between it's Jewish character and it's democratic character -- and between the religious and secular aspects of its Jewish character.

    It's Jewish and Democratic character are secure, just as Ireland and Hungary doen't struggle between their Irish/Hungarian and democratic character (despite providing fast-track immigration for ethnic Irish/Magyar people outside their countries but not to members of other ethnic groups within the country).

    There is a struggle between religious and secular aspects (e.g. buses don't run in Jerusalem on the Sabbath - but they do in Haifa, indicative that this is a municipal rather than national effect).

    Overall, unless one ventures into an orthodox religious neighborhood (which isn't as uncommon but perhaps analogous to wandering into a Amish village in the USA), the country is solidly secular. (Heck, you can find such neighborhoods in NY, too.)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 29, 2014 7:37 AM GMT
    Isn't this site geared to men interested in fitness, says this Israeli American Jew who prefers people of all demographic backgrounds over politics.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 29, 2014 9:46 AM GMT
    I would love to attend Tel-Aviv gay pride. icon_biggrin.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 09, 2016 6:04 PM GMT
    mwolverine saidI know many on RJ have traveled to Israel, so I was surprised to see a comment like this and would hate to think that others share the misperception:

    xxxxxxx said
    mwolverine saidIsrael, unlike Hamastan, is a secular, democratic, state.

    yeah about as secular as the Vatican

    Sorry, but you are mistaken and obviously haven't been there.
    Israel is a mostly secular country.
    There is NO official state religion.
    Only in areas of family law do religious courts have a say.
    Not just Jewish/Rabbinical courts, but also Muslim/Sharia, Christian, Druze and Bahai courts.

    Lacking is a civil (non-religious) family law court (that's the only thing preventing gay marriage), but at least marriages performed abroad - including gay marriages - are recognized by the state. Likewise the state has recognized gay common-law marriages.

    In several respects, Israel is more secular than the USA. God isn't mentioned in its declaration of independence - or on its money. Between 15-37% of the population identifies as atheist or agnostic (compared to about 5% in the USA).

    Compared to the Vatican, I think this will suffice to underscore the differences:
    http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g293984-c108341/Tel-Aviv:Israel:Gay.Israel.html


    While I would agree that Israel is officially a fairly secular country, does it not finance religious schools? And aren't certain religious sects exempted from the requirement to serve in the military?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 10, 2016 7:05 AM GMT
    The "apartheid" in Hebron (is that in Israel?) is that - to reduce tensions/violence at a Jewish holy site coveted by Muslims - there is a short street (on the Jewish side) where traffic is divided into Jewish and Arab. Contemplate that on the Arab side, no Jews are allowed at all.

    Israel and the Apartheid Slander
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-the-apartheid-slander.html?_r=0
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 10, 2016 7:08 AM GMT
    Puppenjunge said
    While I would agree that Israel is officially a fairly secular country, does it not finance religious schools? And aren't certain religious sects exempted from the requirement to serve in the military?

    Yes, most Muslims and Christians, as well as some Jews, are not required to serve in the military.
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    Jun 10, 2016 1:02 PM GMT
    mwolverine saidThe "apartheid" in Hebron (is that in Israel?) is that - to reduce tensions/violence at a Jewish holy site coveted by Muslims - there is a short street (on the Jewish side) where traffic is divided into Jewish and Arab. Contemplate that on the Arab side, no Jews are allowed at all.

    Israel and the Apartheid Slander
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-the-apartheid-slander.html?_r=0


    Hebron isn't ruled (occupied against its will) by Israel?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 10, 2016 1:48 PM GMT
    JTheM said
    Hebron isn't ruled (occupied against its will) by Israel?

    Hebron, like all major Arab population centers in Judea & Samaria (known as such for literally thousands of years, also as the former so-called "West Bank" OF Trans/Jordan for 19 years, 1949-1967), is ruled by the Palestinian Authority.
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    Jun 10, 2016 2:46 PM GMT
    Ah, so the Israeli High Court doesn't consider it under "belligerent occupation" under international law? icon_rolleyes.gif

    Pervert> [crickets]


    The West Bank certainly wasn't known by the natives as "Judea and Samaria", only to Jews and European colonialists (sometimes one and the same).

    To those living there, it was Jabal Nablus.