White lies for unattractive people?

  • highforthis

    Posts: 680

    Jan 18, 2015 10:52 PM GMT
    Sorry for the trollish title, but I couldn't think of a better wording at the moment. I was hanging out with friends yesterday, one less attractive than the others, and in two instances in conversation his looks became an elephant in the room.

    He had been on texting terms with a guy he met online, until the guy started ignoring him in favor of my other friend whom he subsequently met online. When the facts came out, we teased the other friend for inadvertently stealing the other friend's man. We all knew that's the nature of things, but filled the awkward moments with platitudes about "some people just click better".

    Later, the same guy showed me pictures of another guy he started chatting with, asking me what I think of the guy's looks. The guy was quite unattractive, and I couldn't honestly tell my friend that he could do better, but I said it anyway "you can do way better".

    One friend always tells me the same thing about potential dates (even the ones I think are more attractive than me), but I can never tell if he's patronizing or just biased because of familiarity with my personality vs the personality he has imagined for the other person based on a photo.

    I have another friend who plays the very long game when flirting online, with very little reward for the amount of time and effort put in. When I tell him to just be direct like I am, he reminds me "but you're decent looking" when arguing why my methods wouldn't work for him.

    How does one dance around these awkward issues without being a complete liar?
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    Jan 18, 2015 11:08 PM GMT
    I'm confused "his looks became an elephant in the room." then "Later, the same guy showed me pictures of another guy he started chatting with, asking me what I think of the guy's looks. The guy was quite unattractive, and I couldn't honestly tell my friend that he could do better, but I said it anyway "you can do way better"."

    So your ugly friend, who'd been ditched for a "hottie" then wants to date someone as unattractive as HE is? Isn't that what YOU want for him, to be in a different dating pool than you? He should be in the bottom feeder pond with algae, while you get the Olympic pool with athlete divers?

    Then you felt guilty and realized he might make you 'the pretty one' if he stood next to you at your pool.

    I hope he finds less shallow friends!
  • highforthis

    Posts: 680

    Jan 19, 2015 12:15 AM GMT
    How did you get that from what I said?? I want him to have the best guy possible, maybe even date way above his looks. Just that brutal math is part of reality, and the more useful thing is to tell him to leverage other things besides looks, but that already implies he's unattractive. It's a rarely-appropriate conversation that does not make you look nice at all, but on the other hand I don't want to be that fake friend who boosts others with empty talk.
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    Jan 19, 2015 12:27 AM GMT
    108e7417712b9da9a50d282e96fd605d.jpg
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    Jan 19, 2015 12:49 AM GMT
    See, this topic also touches on the fact that so many gay men are single.. Always chasing after unicorns.
  • NeuralShock

    Posts: 411

    Jan 19, 2015 12:57 AM GMT
    I have been in relationships with VERY attractive guys, but their looks faded and then I realized they didn't have the personality or ambition I looked for and I quickly became bored of them.


    And I am sure many people will be like "omg how dare u" but let us be honest... if a relationship is based purely off of sexual attraction it's going to die.
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    Jan 19, 2015 2:41 AM GMT
    highforthis saidHow did you get that from what I said?? I want him to have the best guy possible, maybe even date way above his looks. Just that brutal math is part of reality, and the more useful thing is to tell him to leverage other things besides looks, but that already implies he's unattractive. It's a rarely-appropriate conversation that does not make you look nice at all, but on the other hand I don't want to be that fake friend who boosts others with empty talk.


    "maybe even date way above his looks." What a friend you are!

    The real test of your friendship would be if he read this thread. "his looks became an elephant in the room" would be hard to recover from. Good God, I envision THE "Elephant Man". What a poor choice of words.

    Is he dating? If so let it be. If he's mature and confident leave him alone. You're no help. If he's doing something unhealthy (drugs, dangerous behavior) then intercede. There's a person for everyone. Whenever I see a "mismatched" couple I assume the less attractive guy has attributes I don't see. And the 'looker' is smart enough to know what he has.

    Twice you infer how good looking you are: Says a friend "you can do way better" (even the ones I think are more attractive than me)

    And: downplayed "but you're decent looking".

    Everybody dates, maybe not as much as he wants. But he'll probably be a better partner than some "pretty boy" might be.

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    Jan 19, 2015 4:15 AM GMT
    Well, I think it's more accurate to say that you are not attracted to someone rather than to say that that someone is "unattractive" in any neutral, abstract sense. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    I iust had my second date today with a guy who I want to be attracted to but I have to admit that I'm just not --- even though he has repeatedly made it explicitly clear that he's attracted to me. Oh well, I'll try to let him down easy and talk about it in terms of the "chemistry" not being there for me. I really don't think he's "unattractive" in the abstract. It's just that I'm not attracted to him.

    Two different concepts there!
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    Jan 19, 2015 4:20 AM GMT
    ^^Agreed. I think "not my type" is the kind of honest but uninsulting response OP should adopt, even if hotness has both objective and subjective factors.

    Except for if one is, say, really into a certain type or race, and is approached by the ugliest version of that type. icon_lol.gif
  • ai82

    Posts: 183

    Jan 19, 2015 4:42 PM GMT
    If your friend meets a guy that he likes and is attracted to you should be happy for him, whether or not you think he's attractive. Also, attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder. There's been plenty of guys I've been more attracted to after I got to know them better.
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    Jan 19, 2015 6:09 PM GMT
    It feels like you guys are creating kind of a miserable perspective for yourselves.

    1. If you find yourself to be somewhat attracted to a guy, go out on a date with him to see the full package. It's called "substance" and it matters. Don't do it for him... do it for yourself.

    2. If your friend is somewhat attracted to a guy, encourage him to do the same. You want him to be happy.

    3. Grinder and the like are full of lonely, unhappy guys chasing after pictures and body parts instead of mates. Use it as a tool to help you meet people, not as a rating system for happiness. It doesn't work that way.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 4433

    Jan 19, 2015 6:16 PM GMT
    ....and then I graduated from 8th grade.
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Jan 19, 2015 7:02 PM GMT
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you see in one guy, might not be seen by someone else. You shouldn't be telling your fried who to date and to not date (unless you plan on marrying him yourself.) That is something your friend needs to determine for himself. There really is more than just looks that attract two people together.
  • SilverRRCloud

    Posts: 872

    Jan 19, 2015 9:45 PM GMT
    Like it or not, there is a pervading idea of what constitutes "hottness" in the gay world in the Americas, Australia and in Europe. The marketers know it. And frankly, millions of men around the world know it, too. Few are really pumping iron daily just because they like doing it. Few are not eating donuts (recent reference) just because they do not like donuts. Mostly, guys are trying to get as close as possible to the general idea of what being "hot" happens to be.

    Being hot as being similar looking to say, Andrew Christian models or being hot as in being similar to male models who are essentially selling their looks for the hard currency is what is generally speaking perceived as VGL, hot, attractive, etc., by a seemingly vast majority of gay men around the globe.

    Being that kind of hot has its numerous benefits in many walks of life. You get a lot of guys interested in your looks, and willing to go and mess around with you than an untrimmed dude, with love handles all over the place... . People want to be your friends because they see something special in you. In a way, the majority is admiring your discipline and self-sacrifice you needed to trim your looks to the point of being generally perceived as attractive. To a degree the public attitude of acceptance and approval rewards your genes, and possibly to an even higher degree it awards your sense of self-discipline, too.

    There is a great deal of truth in the saying that the beauty (or attraction) lies in the eye of the beholder. It is also very true that NOT all the gay men subscribe to the A&F, Elite, Andrew Christian, etc. ideals of beauty. But the vast majority does.

    Denying this reality is both foolish and counterproductive.

    It is also true that not all the men who want to be attractive have what it takes to get there. Much of how you look like has to do with your genetic background. Or with the illness/injury, state of affluence, mental state, etc.. The pervading ideals of beauty have always been discriminating against many, while favoring the creation of a small elite of the "chosen ones". This is not going to change any time soon.

    So, what do you do if you do not have what it takes to be perceived by the majority as very attractive & sexually desirable; and yeah, you would want to be one of them?

    You do what people have been doing since the times immemorial. You learn how to put your best foot forward. You learn that everyone can be attractive to a specific group of people who would find your traits attractive, and you focus on your strengths there. You discover what your talent is, and just like everyone else, you, too, try to sell it on the daily market to the highest bidder.

    Calling the things by their proper names is a much smarter policy than spending time and energy denying that some guys are generally perceived to be more handsome and attractive than the others. Equality is a legal, political and ideological concept. Projecting that ideological value into the world of sexual attraction is futile.

    SC

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    Jan 19, 2015 11:59 PM GMT
    You simply walk up to the guy and say: I break with thee, I break with thee, I break with thee...and then you throw dog poop on his shoes.
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Jan 20, 2015 12:05 AM GMT
    CLTMike46 saidYou simply walk up to the guy and say: I break with thee, I break with thee, I break with thee...and then you throw dog poop on his shoes.

    ummmm .... what is that for? ... I didn't see where he said he was trying to breakup with someone?
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    Jan 20, 2015 2:16 AM GMT
    SilverRRCloud said...Calling the things by their proper names is a much smarter policy than spending time and energy denying that some guys are generally perceived to be more handsome and attractive than the others. Equality is a legal, political and ideological concept. Projecting that ideological value into the world of sexual attraction is futile.


    Agreed.

    The backlash against OP probably comes from insecurity from those who think they're less attractive. Where did he say he was trying to control who his friend dates? All he is saying is that hotness, or lack of, inevitably becomes a factor in conversations and power dynamics, and wants advice in how to mitigate it without being dishonest or patronizing to less attractive people. The answer is to focus on subjective personal opinions and avoid objective judgment.
  • BloodFlame

    Posts: 1768

    Jan 20, 2015 3:28 AM GMT
    OP, I'd just go with "He's not my type" kind of thing. A good example I'd use is a bodybuilder type. My brother who happens to be gay is obsessed with competition bodybuilders. He likes the popping veins and ultra cut look. Me personally, I'm more into the off season look. Bulgy and not veiny. So our tastes differ in that regard. Not a very good example but I digress.

    I understand what you're trying to say but if you really don't want to upset your friend, whenever he shows you a guy he likes who you don't find attraction for, just go with "he's not my type". It's more polite than "you can do better" because for all you know, your friend may genuinely see something in the guy.

    NeuralShock saidI have been in relationships with VERY attractive guys, but their looks faded and then I realized they didn't have the personality or ambition I looked for and I quickly became bored of them.


    And I am sure many people will be like "omg how dare u" but let us be honest... if a relationship is based purely off of sexual attraction it's going to die.


    No, you're right. In the grand scheme of things when you get over hooking up with every guy and want to settle down. You need to make sure that you both are compatible in some way.

    It's kind of like the whole dumb blonde stereotype. Almost every man would love to have a hot woman as their mate, even if she wasn't very smart. But imagine the stark reality of it. 5 years of dating and you get over her look and find the relationship isn't all that exciting like it once was (because of lust).

    So no, I do believe there is some merit in what you said if you're looking for a LTR.
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    Jan 20, 2015 3:57 AM GMT
    hentailover said
    SilverRRCloud said...Calling the things by their proper names is a much smarter policy than spending time and energy denying that some guys are generally perceived to be more handsome and attractive than the others. Equality is a legal, political and ideological concept. Projecting that ideological value into the world of sexual attraction is futile.


    Agreed.

    The backlash against OP probably comes from insecurity from those who think they're less attractive. Where did he say he was trying to control who his friend dates? All he is saying is that hotness, or lack of, inevitably becomes a factor in conversations and power dynamics, and wants advice in how to mitigate it without being dishonest or patronizing to less attractive people. The answer is to focus on subjective personal opinions and avoid objective judgment.


    Well just like he's struggling with the unattractive looks of his friends, some on here are struggling with the unattractive view the OP has of the situation. We all know that looks matter. Its just the degree to which they matter and the OP's omission of anything positive about his buddy... personality, character, compatibility. Even when his buddy went after someone of his same level of looks, the OP's admits that his thoughts were that they were both... ugly. He asked for opinions and some on here dared to offer that the OP explore his own view. I agree that people should be respectful and not attack him though.
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    Jan 21, 2015 12:36 AM GMT
    How about: "You have such a great personality. Here is the name and number for my plastic surgeon. Call me in 6 months."
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 21, 2015 11:20 AM GMT
    Are you in middle school?

    “Great minds discuss ideas
    Average minds discuss events
    Small minds discuss people”
    ― Eleanor Roosevelt
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 22, 2015 12:18 AM GMT
    Show up three hours late to his house, and then throw everything on the floor. I did this on the last date I went on. It was about 6 years ago.
  • buddycat

    Posts: 1874

    Jan 22, 2015 11:14 AM GMT
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 22, 2015 9:14 PM GMT
    Destinharbor said....and then I graduated from 8th grade.


    lol
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    Jan 22, 2015 9:25 PM GMT


    *sighs*

    "Later, the same guy showed me pictures of another guy he started chatting with, asking me what I think of the guy's looks. The guy was quite unattractive, and I couldn't honestly tell my friend that he could do better, but I said it anyway "you can do way better"."

    I had, long ago, a couple of friends that told me this. I learned to avoid telling them anything about a guy I liked or was interested in. You should have simply asked him if he'd chatted with the new guy yet, and if so, asked what he was like.