So who do you think will win the Automotive Technological Innovation Advancement Future?

  • metta

    Posts: 39091

    Feb 15, 2015 11:51 PM GMT

    Tesla
    Toyota
    Google
    Apple
    etc....



    Elon Musk Is Right: Hydrogen Is ‘An Incredibly Dumb’ Car Fuel
    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/02/12/3621136/tesla-elon-musk-hydrogen-dumb/
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    Feb 16, 2015 12:50 AM GMT
    I saw a production Tesla S displayed recently, along with a body-less "skeleton". Tesla has an outlet in the Town Center Mall in Boca Raton, Florida. And I'm increasingly seeing Teslas on the road.

    What surprised me was that the S model had TWO trunks, both generously sized. One up front, one in the rear. The drivetrain & batteries take up surprisingly little space. And the stripped chassis on display seemed to show why: incredibly efficient packaging, without accommodating an internal combustion hybrid engine, the major heavy components all at the floor line.

    So I can understand Musk saying: “Consider the whole fuel cell system against a Model S. It’s far worse in volume and mass terms..."

    At present, fuel cells are indeed volume hogs within a car, and heavy, too. But so were earlier battery cars. That volume disadvantage could disappear in the future.

    I'm not an engineer, so it's not possible for me to judge professionally. Criticisms I've read of all-electric cars are that they are ultimately NOT "zero-emission" because they draw their electricity from polluting power plants, including coal-fired that US Republicans want deregulated to pollute even more. Electric cars may overload the electrical grid if enough of them come into service, requiring massive public expenditures to upgrade the infrastructure, and build new plants.

    And there are insufficient charging stations to allow longer trips, tethering electrics to urban use. Not to mention the time it takes to recharge them, and though Teslas charge fairly quickly, it's still an issue.
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    Feb 16, 2015 1:13 AM GMT
    Well, I'm not so sure. Of course he'll trash-talk the competitors. First, there are non-electrolytic methods for making hydrogen. It's not all that difficult to handle it. And a hydrogen tank is a lot cheaper than a big battery, even if it's a less efficient way to store electricity.

    Maybe some day there will be a world full of electric vehicles plugged into the grid that can absorb excess wind power and such, but right now a lot of energy is lost because there is no way to store it.


    BTW: A few months ago, I was strolling past a Tesla dealership in Seattle and a guy who looked just like Elon was closing up the store and getting on his bicycle. Of course it wasn't him, but I wonder if the employees are deliberately working on their resemblance as a sales tactic?
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    Feb 16, 2015 2:24 PM GMT
    The Yugo will make a comeback!!! Just you wait!
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    Feb 16, 2015 3:35 PM GMT
    Look to nature for long term sustainability. How does nature ( plants ) store energy........ Hydrocarbons... OIL.

    A Tesla's light weight battery pack weighs 1000 lbs to power the car 200 miles.

    8 gallons of gas weigh 48 lbs to drive the same distance . Since F= M x A then oil is the winner by a huge factor.
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    Feb 16, 2015 8:26 PM GMT
    Alpha13 saidLook to nature for long term sustainability. How does nature ( plants ) store energy........ Hydrocarbons... OIL.

    A Tesla's light weight battery pack weighs 1000 lbs to power the car 200 miles.

    8 gallons of gas weigh 48 lbs to drive the same distance . Since F= M x A then oil is the winner by a huge factor.

    I'm not sure what your numbers really prove. Assuming a car that drives 10,000 miles annually, and using your numbers that 8 gallons of gas @ 48 pounds will deliver 200 miles, then the gas for a year's use will weigh 2400 pounds.

    Whereas the Tesla's battery will still weigh 1000 pounds for 10,000 miles. Because the source of the propulsive power is electricity, which weighs nothing. The battery is merely a rechargeable storage device, analogous to a gas tank in a conventional automobile.

    It would be more relevant to determine the weight of the fuel used to generate the electricity. Which can vary greatly, depending on whether that fuel is nuclear or fossil, and what kind of fossil.
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    Feb 17, 2015 5:37 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    Alpha13 saidLook to nature for long term sustainability. How does nature ( plants ) store energy........ Hydrocarbons... OIL.

    A Tesla's light weight battery pack weighs 1000 lbs to power the car 200 miles.

    8 gallons of gas weigh 48 lbs to drive the same distance . Since F= M x A then oil is the winner by a huge factor.

    I'm not sure what your numbers really prove. Assuming a car that drives 10,000 miles annually, and using your numbers that 8 gallons of gas @ 48 pounds will deliver 200 miles, then the gas for a year's use will weigh 2400 pounds.

    Whereas the Tesla's battery will still weigh 1000 pounds for 10,000 miles. Because the source of the propulsive power is electricity, which weighs nothing. The battery is merely a rechargeable storage device, analogous to a gas tank in a conventional automobile.

    It would be more relevant to determine the weight of the fuel used to generate the electricity. Which can vary greatly, depending on whether that fuel is nuclear or fossil, and what kind of fossil.


    Try building a vehicle sometime and it will become apparent that weight is everything. Before Tesla an electric typically weighed 2x it's internal combustion twin. F= M x A. It takes more energy to move an electric car because it's curb weight is greater. Another irony is that a gas vehicle becomes lighter as it's fuel tank empties but an electric vehicle stays the same dead weight. Also if a battery is fully discharged it will dramatically decrease its life so a battery pack must always be oversized, another weight handicap .
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    Feb 17, 2015 6:05 PM GMT
    Alpha13 said... Try building a vehicle sometime and it will become apparent that weight is everything...
    5th gen Civic's were under 1900 lbs. A lot can be done with negative technology, just reduce the weight.
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    Feb 17, 2015 6:19 PM GMT
    Alpha13 said
    Also if a battery is fully discharged it will dramatically decrease its life so a battery pack must always be oversized, another weight handicap .

    icon_question.gificon_question.gificon_question.gif

    Your citation for that? Is that true for the lithium-ion batteries of the Tesla? That can be true for a conventional lead-acid battery found in most cars, but not sure about the Tesla.
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    Feb 17, 2015 7:38 PM GMT
    factors reducing lithium life times:

    -avoid deep discharges, lite discharge followed by full recharging is the best. There is no memory. You can leave the charger plugged in, Lithium batteries shut down recharging when they reach 100%. Actually each cell typically has a small protection circuit internal that monitors temperature and re charge rates.

    -expect significant reduction in efficiency after the first year, total ~3years life span. Tho these batteries share a common chemistry replacement is limited by each seem to have a different mechanical case design. A lot could be saved if we had a federal standard. For the mechanical skill free owners (those with impeccable grammar & spelling abilities) replacement will be co$tly.

    -avoid high battery temperatures during discharge or re charge. avoid rapid discharge or rapid re charge. avoid mechanical vibration.



    there is a huge environmental impact with Lithium batteries. A good thing we still have 3rd world communist countries that promote companies that manufacture these batteries


    A lot can be done with less. Weight reduction is key. Simplify the design, less functionality, less electrical wire, etc. Some 5th gen civic's that got 50mpg with out technology. "The Yugo will make a comeback!!".
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    Feb 17, 2015 8:06 PM GMT
    Well, I doubt total discharge will often happen with a Tesla. I believe its circuitry shuts down before the batteries go totally flat. And a driver would seek a charge before being stranded in the middle of nowhere. Enough warnings appear on the screen to make that unlikely.

    But... people do run conventional cars out of gas. Difficult to have sympathy for them, and the consequences. I don't know why Tesla drivers should be different, or expect a special exemption for stupidity.
  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    Feb 17, 2015 9:05 PM GMT
    I'm a huge fan of alternative energies and technological advancement.

    Having said that, at the end of the day WEIGHT is all that matters in a two+ vehicle car wreck. So the "reduce the weight" is going to lead to a lot of corpses IF we keep the huge beast/giants on the road (which we'd have to, even if just by grandfathering what's already out there).

    http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates

    A car's "crash rating" or number of stars means VERY LITTLE practically. I'd rather be in a 1 star massive SUV than a 5 star "mini" anyday. Don't even get me started on bumper-height "crash compatability." This is the classic free-rider problem, I'm too risk-adverse to get into a small car. I always get "standard" (at the lightest) when I rent, and the last time I rode in a small Honda car (visiting a friend in Nashville) I almost soiled myself at how low we sat and how unsafe I felt.

    We're either pulling all SUVs and trucks, or putting sacrificial lambs out until the number of lightweight cars increases. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Feb 17, 2015 11:54 PM GMT
    Tesla. We're sold on our Model S, which we've had about 5 months. Most innovative car imaginable. The more I read and studied, and the more questions I asked - the more impressed I became. There are charging stations all over the place (384 supercharger stations, with 2090 superchargers). We could drive from here to N.Y. and back. It takes little time to charge your car. Walk your dog, or grab some lunch or dinner and you're good to go.

    I read where some people have 'charge anxiety' before buying an electric car. Not so after they find out how easy it is to charge the car (at home or at the stations). When you get a Tesla home and really examine it from end to end, throughout, the more you respect and admire what Elon Musk has put together for you. It's fun driving them, and good to have the most technologically advanced car in the world. Get one for the fun of driving it - - and for the planet.


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    Feb 18, 2015 3:39 PM GMT
    Svnw688 said... I'd rather be in a 1 star massive SUV than a 5 star "mini" any day ... I'm too risk-adverse to get into a small car... I almost soiled myself at how low we sat and how unsafe I felt...


    you seriously need to up date your driving habits. Any risk has it remediation. I have not had an accident, must feel bad. Its not that i dont take risks; rode a sport bike for years.
  • Ngrappler

    Posts: 2

    Feb 18, 2015 3:52 PM GMT
    Ford
  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    Feb 18, 2015 7:34 PM GMT
    pellaz said
    Svnw688 said... I'd rather be in a 1 star massive SUV than a 5 star "mini" any day ... I'm too risk-adverse to get into a small car... I almost soiled myself at how low we sat and how unsafe I felt...


    you seriously need to up date your driving habits. Any risk has it remediation. I have not had an accident, must feel bad. Its not that i dont take risks; rode a sport bike for years.


    ? I've never had an accident either, after 15 years and over 350,000+ miles driven (knock on wood). But I can't control if/when some drunk or texting idiot swerves into my lane, and I'm necessarily in an accident because of THEIR error.

    In that situation, I will be in a 4,000+ lbs vehicle.

    Anyone is free to drive around in a scooter or 2,000 lbs vehicle as much as they'd like, I simply pray for their survival if/when they hit a 4,000+ lbs vehicle. Physics is not forgiving and does not discriminate. The lighter vehicle loses, every time. Period, full stop.