Northern Ireland to vote on bill to legalize discrimination against gays.

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    Feb 25, 2015 5:41 PM GMT
    The Northern Irish government is set to vote on a bill which will legalize discrimination against gay people. The bill will allow businesses to refuse service to gay people. Gay couples could be thrown out of restaurants, coffee shops, hotels, refused from renting property etc. Please take two seconds out of your day to sign this petition.

    https://go.allout.org/en/a/northern-ireland/
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    Feb 25, 2015 5:43 PM GMT
    I didn't realize Northern Ireland could be as bigoted as Texas, or other US southern States. icon_sad.gif
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    Feb 25, 2015 5:45 PM GMT
    The main party is called the "DUP" and they are a fundamentalist protestant party....their old leader, who died recently, was head of "the free presbyterian church" and when homosexuality was decriminalised, he ran a campaign called "save ulster from sodomy"
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    Feb 25, 2015 5:47 PM GMT
    colosseo92 saidThe main party is called the "DUP" and they are a fundamentalist protestant party....their old leader, who died recently, was head of "the free presbyterian church" and when homosexuality was decriminalised, he ran a campaign called "save ulster from sodomy"

    Ahhh... does sound like Texas.
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    Feb 25, 2015 6:05 PM GMT
    First jurisdiction in Western Europe to actually vote FOR discrimination when it already has a discrimination law? WOW
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    Feb 25, 2015 6:46 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidI didn't realize Northern Ireland could be as bigoted as Texas, or other US southern States. icon_sad.gif

    You should; you do live in one, after all.

    Being transplants, Ulstermen have always felt a need to out-do themselves. "Jesus wept; Voltaire smiled." Late converts are always the most fervent.
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    Feb 25, 2015 9:20 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidI didn't realize Northern Ireland could be as bigoted as Texas, or other US southern States. icon_sad.gif


    You beat me to it. I was going to say, Northern Ireland: the UK's own little bit of Alabama. Strangely enough, in NI it is the Catholic nationalist political parties that tend to be more progressive on gay rights than the Protestant loyalist political parties.
  • wesv

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    Feb 25, 2015 10:15 PM GMT
    That's impeding. I can't believe they would get into the past like that. My friend was born in Northern Ireland. I can't imagine what he would say.
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    Feb 25, 2015 10:59 PM GMT
    MGINSD said

    Late converts are always the most fervent.

    I presume you're referencing St. Paul, on the road to Tarsus?
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    Feb 26, 2015 3:58 PM GMT
    This should be good....how do you prove someone is gay? *If* you refuse service to someone who *isn't* but that you think is, can they sue *you* for defamation, discrimination, and anything else they can think of?


    Is your *belief* that they are gay enough? If you have already signed a legally binding contract, can you break it?

    I see all kinds of problems here....above and beyond the fact it's *wrong*

    Doctor9

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    Feb 26, 2015 4:39 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    Art_Deco saidI didn't realize Northern Ireland could be as bigoted as Texas, or other US southern States. icon_sad.gif


    You beat me to it. I was going to say, Northern Ireland: the UK's own little bit of Alabama. Strangely enough, in NI it is the Catholic nationalist political parties that tend to be more progressive on gay rights than the Protestant loyalist political parties.


    Why is that strange?
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    Feb 26, 2015 5:01 PM GMT
    Doctor9 saidThis should be good....how do you prove someone is gay? *If* you refuse service to someone who *isn't* but that you think is, can they sue *you* for defamation, discrimination, and anything else they can think of?

    Is your *belief* that they are gay enough? If you have already signed a legally binding contract, can you break it?

    I see all kinds of problems here....above and beyond the fact it's *wrong*

    Doctor9

    Interesting points. Here in the US these cases have so far clearly involved LGBT persons. Things like being denied cakes and flowers for gay & lesbian weddings.

    But what if an effeminate guy walks into a restaurant. Some effeminate guys are in fact straight. And he gets denied service for being gay, which he's not. Or can he be denied service merely on the basis of his being effeminate, which the management dislikes?

    If that's the case, then I presume we can return to denying service to Blacks, too, as was done in the US South until passage of the Civil Rights Act (which Congressional Republicans continue to try having repealed).
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    Feb 27, 2015 1:36 AM GMT
    colosseo92 saidThe Northern Irish government is set to vote on a bill which will legalize discrimination against gay people. The bill will allow businesses to refuse service to gay people. Gay couples could be thrown out of restaurants, coffee shops, hotels, refused from renting property etc. Please take two seconds out of your day to sign this petition.

    https://go.allout.org/en/a/northern-ireland/

    Normally, one would think that such legislation would be in conflict with the European Convention on Human Rights. For whatever political reason, Britain and Poland got a special provision saying that the European Court could not invalidate a law in these countries on human rights grounds (Those brits just love to get special treatment to allow them to continue to act non-europaean.) Doesn't make a lot of sense (but no one can accuse europeans of acting sensible). Maybe someone from Europe can elucidate.
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    Feb 27, 2015 6:51 PM GMT
    HikerSkier said
    Normally, one would think that such legislation would be in conflict with the European Convention on Human Rights. For whatever political reason, Britain and Poland got a special provision saying that the European Court could not invalidate a law in these countries on human rights grounds (Those brits just love to get special treatment to allow them to continue to act non-europaean.) Doesn't make a lot of sense (but no one can accuse europeans of acting sensible). Maybe someone from Europe can elucidate.


    Nonsense. The whole of the United Kingdom (comprising Britain and Northern Ireland) is subject to the European Convention on Human Rights. The Human Rights Act 1988 incorporates into UK law the rights contained in the ECHR. The Act makes a remedy for breach of a Convention right available in UK courts.

    So, if the proposed anti-gay amendment were to become law in Northern Ireland, it could be challenged under the ECHR and could be ruled incompatible with the Human Rights Act (effectively rendering it unlawful).

    It is true to say not everyone in the UK (particularly many conservative politicians) likes the fact the UK is subject to the ECHR, but that is another matter and does not alter the law as it stands.
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    Feb 27, 2015 7:21 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    HikerSkier said
    Normally, one would think that such legislation would be in conflict with the European Convention on Human Rights. For whatever political reason, Britain and Poland got a special provision saying that the European Court could not invalidate a law in these countries on human rights grounds (Those brits just love to get special treatment to allow them to continue to act non-europaean.) Doesn't make a lot of sense (but no one can accuse europeans of acting sensible). Maybe someone from Europe can elucidate.


    Nonsense. The whole of the United Kingdom (comprising Britain and Northern Ireland) is subject to the European Convention on Human Rights. The Human Rights Act 1988 incorporates into UK law the rights contained in the ECHR. The Act makes a remedy for breach of a Convention right available in UK courts.

    So, if the proposed anti-gay amendment were to become law in Northern Ireland, it could be challenged under the ECHR and could be ruled incompatible with the Human Rights Act (effectively rendering it unlawful).

    It is true to say not everyone in the UK (particularly conservative politicians) likes the fact the UK is subject to the ECHR, but that is another matter and does not alter the law as it stands.

    Then how does the convention relate to the Lisbon treaty, which states:
    "The Charter does not extend the ability of the Court of Justice of the European Union, or any court or tribunal of Poland or of the United Kingdom, to find that the laws, regulations or administrative provisions, practices or actions of Poland or of the United Kingdom are inconsistent with the fundamental rights, freedoms and principles that it reaffirms." (I claim no expertise in analyzing european law.)
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    Feb 27, 2015 7:44 PM GMT
    HikerSkier said
    Then how does the convention relate to the Lisbon treaty, which states:
    "The Charter does not extend the ability of the Court of Justice of the European Union, or any court or tribunal of Poland or of the United Kingdom, to find that the laws, regulations or administrative provisions, practices or actions of Poland or of the United Kingdom are inconsistent with the fundamental rights, freedoms and principles that it reaffirms." (I claim no expertise in analyzing european law.)


    It does not relate to it (in any legally binding sense at least). The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (which the Treaty of Lisbon brought into legal effect) is subordinate to and has no bearing on the European Convention on Human Rights or its applicability to the UK. The European Union has 28 member states, whereas the European Convention on Human Rights applies to the 47 member states of the Council of Europe.
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    Mar 02, 2015 7:00 AM GMT
    When you legitimize discrimination against one minority group you basically legitimize against discrimination against all minority groups.
    It's no surprise they felt confident to even push for the bill given the times.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 4433

    Jun 22, 2016 9:19 PM GMT
    How'd all this turn out? My partner and I were in Northern Ireland recently and totally out in hotels and, well, everywhere and we felt it was a warm, friendly, wonderful country. Republic, too.
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    Jun 22, 2016 9:21 PM GMT
    I'm sure this didn't pass. Northern Ireland, as much they think they're their own country, is still a part of the UK, which has VERY strict anti-bullying laws. They will never be able to get something like this passed through the High Courts.

    Cheers,

    Sean