Gays that don't believe in the bible? Is this more common now, and would you befriend them?

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    Mar 03, 2015 6:25 AM GMT
    I had a rather eye opening debate with a guy I met the other day. We were having Sunday brunch, when the topic of global warming lead to a debate about the bible and even the beginning of time.

    Long story short, we chatted for 2 hours about his beliefs and my beliefs. Now, this happened to be a fairly well to do, put together guy with a nice career, car and who was rather polite towards me. But his views about creation dumbfounded me. It went as far as his not even believing in God, Adam and Eve, and the bible. When I presented my beliefs from what ove been taught and read over the years, he just made it seem like the only reason I believe that, is because I've been brainwashed to believe it as a kid, and that's the only reason.

    He went even further to challenge me and say that one day, the bible will be exposed as a fraud, and asking me what I'll do about it. It annoyed me, but at the same time I told him that the bottom line is...believe what you believe in, and I'll believe what I believe in. You forcing your atheist views on me is no better than somewhat forcing Christian views on someone else. How does that make your belief any less imposing?

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    Mar 03, 2015 6:28 AM GMT
    FuzzyPecs27 saidBut his views about creation dumbfounded me. It went as far as his not even believing in God, Adam and Eve, and the bible.

    Dumbfounded you, really? This is the first atheist you'd ever met? Wow.
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    Mar 03, 2015 6:42 AM GMT
    Also, reason I am referring to gays, is because over the years...Most guys I've met over the years are so anti-bible, that it's crazy. YET, Gays will believe SO profusely an HIV diagnosis, yet we don't put our faith in God and the bible. We will walk in darkness, but not walk in the light. However, I understand they feel that way because they've been wrongly taught that being gay is STILL wrong.

    But, what I try to get people to understand (if ever they are opening to listen and BRING UP the debate themselves), is that many of the assumed gay abomination was stuff written in the Old Testament, in those times. (whenever someone quotes a seemingly gay bashing verse, it's ALWAYS in the Old Testament. However, The New Testament offers a different perspective. I can't really explain it as well, but if anyone is interested, I provided an example website:


    http://www.compellingtruth.org/difference-old-new-testament.html
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    Mar 03, 2015 6:43 AM GMT
    Sharkspeare said
    FuzzyPecs27 saidBut his views about creation dumbfounded me. It went as far as his not even believing in God, Adam and Eve, and the bible.

    Dumbfounded you, really? This is the first atheist you'd ever met? Wow.


    you responded before I finished the second part of my thread.
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    Mar 03, 2015 6:49 AM GMT
    Many gay men don't believe the Bible or renounce their faith because they feel oppressed by it. It's very difficult to reconcile their faith and sexuality, especially when many gay men have been hurt by churches and Christians. Many have been ostracized. Churches often welcome sinners yet homosexuality is somehow treated as the worst of all sin.

    It is truly unfortunate. icon_cry.gif
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    Mar 03, 2015 6:59 AM GMT
    polfsky saidMany gay men don't believe the Bible or renounce their faith because they feel oppressed by it. It's very difficult to reconcile their faith and sexuality, especially when many gay men have been hurt by churches and Christians. Many have been ostracized. Churches often welcome sinners yet homosexuality is somehow treated as the worst of all sin.

    It is truly unfortunate. icon_cry.gif


    And that's very true. However, I was gay since God knows when and was in church since I was 4 years old. I knew who I was. At the same time, the churches I attended didn't go overboard on "God hates gay" preach. Usually, when Someone in church mentioned it,, it was said in a way of describing an ultra feminine guy who doesn't handle his business. But YET...people on realjock all admit that they aren't into feminine guys!

    I'm not gonna go too deep into it, but I know there's churches out there that condem sexuality. But I also try to tell people that what they're doing is also not according to Gods will. That is, making him look like a killer instead of an entity of grace, tolerance and forgiveness.

    I've learned to move away from what a man tells me, and instead research what the bible says about things. With the Internet, I've learned SO MUCH more than what some pastors have taught. Not everybody has interpreted the bible correctly, and that has been duly noted. Like a car repair problem, you need to get multiple opinion sometimes.. Eventually, you'll find one that outweighs the other, and your car will be fixed right.
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    Mar 03, 2015 7:00 AM GMT
    Where have you been living OP? Why is this a big revelation for you? Why is it surprising for you that gays don't believe in religion? The same religion which has been used to oppress them for centuries and is still used around the world to discriminate against them. Google would have helped you lot better in this regard instead of this thread where you're looking like a fool.
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    Mar 03, 2015 7:06 AM GMT
    __morphic__ saidWhere have you been living OP? Why is this a big revelation for you? Why is it surprising for you that gays don't believe in religion? The same religion which has been used to oppress them for centuries and is still used around the world to discriminate against them. Google would have helped you lot better in this regard instead of this thread where you're looking like a fool.


    I'm talking about America. Gays in America. Again, it's NOT a big revelation, rather I want to have an open discussion as to what others feel about it.

    Also, the bible specifically speaks AGAINST religion. Believing in the creator is not religious. It's fact. The bible has never been a proponent of religion. Religion is what causes uproar, not faith. There's a difference between faith and religion. People who are killing and discriminating in the name of God are not doing Gods work. That's not what the savior was sent down for. People who are doing that have perverted the word, and are doing things on their on accord.

    Do you know what the antichrist consists of? claiming to be of Christ, but in reality aren't at all.
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    Mar 03, 2015 7:26 AM GMT
    FuzzyPecs27 said
    __morphic__ saidWhere have you been living OP? Why is this a big revelation for you? Why is it surprising for you that gays don't believe in religion? The same religion which has been used to oppress them for centuries and is still used around the world to discriminate against them. Google would have helped you lot better in this regard instead of this thread where you're looking like a fool.


    I'm talking about America. Gays in America. Again, it's NOT a big revelation, rather I want to have an open discussion as to what others feel about it.

    Also, the bible specifically speaks AGAINST religion. Believing in the creator is not religious. It's fact. The bible has never been a proponent of religion. Religion is what causes uproar, not faith. There's a difference between faith and religion. People who are killing and discriminating in the name of God are not doing Gods work. That's not what the savior was sent down for. People who are doing that have perverted the word, and are doing things on their on accord.

    Do you know what the antichrist consists of? claiming to be of Christ, but in reality aren't at all.

    It's just not the gays in America. Most of the gays want to stay as far as possible from any kind of religion, including me. Yes, there are people who are spiritual but not religious. But you don't need a book to tell you that. Religion is judged by it's follower. Why do you want gays to believe in Bible?
  • metta

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    Mar 03, 2015 7:33 AM GMT
    In regards to the question, I generally don't care if someone is religious or not.

    It is not just people that are gay that are becoming less religious. People in the US are statistically less religious than they have been. Being agnostic, atheist, not belonging to any religion has been growing for a while now and will most likely continue to grow. There are many reasons for this, but one of the biggest reasons is that people have the internet, where they can easily get more information.

    At some point, many people are questioning what they grew up with, what their beliefs are, how logical these beliefs are, what is realistic, what is harmful, what is helpful, etc. Is it enough to say that you are 'enter particular religion here' because you were taught to be that....because your family is that...etc.? Are you able to back up your beliefs with verifiable (repeatable) facts? Example: 1+1=2 is a fact. Having something printed in a book does not make it a fact.

    And then there is the part of actually studying the history of various religions. Originally, religion was created prior to any government. It was a way to create structure and rules in various societies. Gosh, just look at the history of the Catholic church, that was at one time so powerful that the Pope would choose who would be king and queen. Then there were also governments that used various religions to help control society as well. Even today, you see so many people killed in the name of religion.

    When I was 17-18 years old, I didn't want what sounded good or felt good...I wanted what could be backed up by fact. A reality based life. For me, it was a book written to prove that God existed that made me realize that the whole thing did not make sense. Meditations on First Philosophy by René Descartes
  • sinfakos

    Posts: 43

    Mar 03, 2015 8:37 AM GMT
    FuzzyPecs27 saidI had a rather eye opening debate with a guy I met the other day. We were having Sunday brunch, when the topic of global warming led to a debate about the bible and even the beginning of time.

    Long story short, we chatted for 2 hours about his beliefs and my beliefs. Now, this happened to be a fairly well to do, put together guy with a nice career, car and who was rather polite towards me. But his views about creation dumbfounded me. It went as far as his not even believing in God, Adam and Eve, and the bible. When I presented my beliefs from what ove been taught and read over the years, he just made it seem like the only reason I believe that, is because I've been brainwashed to believe it as a kid, and that's the only reason.

    He went even further to challenge me and say that one day, the bible will be exposed as a fraud, and asking me what I'll do about it. It annoyed me, but at the same time I told him that the bottom line is...believe what you believe in, and I'll believe what I believe in. You forcing your atheist views on me is no better than somewhat forcing Christian views on someone else. How does at make you any better?


    I agree with him about the bible (& probably his views on global warming, but you didn't talk about that), however, I agree with you against forcing one's beliefs on anyone. Although, sometimes one's beliefs, religious or otherwise, will often come up in a debate such as this, especially when a belief in an established religion or dogma is preventing one from seeing the logic of an opposing point of view.

    I'm in love with & live with a Muslim. That must be really difficult, you say! Not at all. We both go about our business, & neither of us bothers the other about our beliefs or lack thereof. We're very much in sync with our other beliefs, principles, likes & dislikes.

    My guess is I'd like & get along very well with this guy you talk about (and probably with you, too), but unless one or both of you can either accept an opposing point of view, or are open to change yourself, then you probably are not meant for each other.

    And take this in: not all religions can be right; most likely they're all wrong; what religion one believes has far more to do with where one was born & one's parents' beliefs than anything else (like any objective analysis about the precepts of the religion)
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    Mar 03, 2015 8:41 AM GMT
    Morphic It's just not the gays in America. Most of the gays want to stay as far as possible from any kind of religion, including me? Why do you want gays to believe in Bible?


    Wait a minute. Hold up bitch, hold up. My question never said I want gays to believe in the bible. My question didn't even ask why gays don't believe in the bible. My question is simply polling people on those who don't believe, and whether others would consider befriendng them based on their own spiritual beliefs...due to the fact that if a person doesn't agree on the most fundamental of concepts, can there be a unity?

    See...this is a perfect example of why people get crossed up. They MISINTERPRET scriptures from the bible just like you MISINTERPRETED my reasoning for this topic. Suddenly you see me as a gay bashing bible thumper, then you tell your friends, your friends tell your friends, and next thing you know...the whole message has been perverted. Which brings to mind the very book METTA8 Mentioned (I haven't read the book, but did a wiki on it and it's VERY powerful). I included an excerpt from wiki:

    "It goes on to comment that on a general level the reasoning used by the atheists for denying the existence of God is based in the fact that "we ascribe to God affections that are human, or we attribute so much strength and wisdom to our minds" that we presume to understand that which God can and ought to do. He says that we have to consider God as incomprehensible and infinite, and our minds as limited and finite."
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    Mar 03, 2015 8:57 AM GMT
    Sinfakos said
    My guess is I'd like & get along very well with this guy you talk about (and probably with you, too), but unless one or both of you can either accept an opposing point of view, or are open to change yourself, then you probably are not meant for each other.

    And take this in: not all religions can be right; most likely they're all wrong; what religion one believes has far more to do with where one was born & one's parents' beliefs than anything else (like any objective analysis about the precepts of the religion)


    I agree. But I dated a couple of Muslims, they all seem fucking wishy washy as hell.. I just went out on a date with one last week. They all seem cool at first, but the same conflicted game they play with themselves, they play with the men they meet. It's like dude, do you wanna fuck or not? Do you wanna date or not? Just say what you want. Muslims are so passive and grate my nerves. Consider yourself fortunate to met one of the more consistent ones. .

    Cuz I ain't met nan...and sorry if that offends anyone. If anyone can enlighten me about that, let me know. Because there's some hot Arabs/Middle Easterns out there, but most don't really show what they want (my best friend is Arab by the way, so this isn't ignorance or intolerance)
  • awg90

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    Mar 03, 2015 8:58 AM GMT
    How do you believe in a book that promotes slavery, stoning to death for ridiculous reasons, and lots of other nonsense? Or do you pick and choose what you believe in from the book?
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    Mar 03, 2015 9:01 AM GMT
    You make a clear example of what are the atheists of today, really rude and have no respect to spiritual believes.

    Really pathetic in my opinion, although a lot of people nowadays think that the Holy Bible is useless I do not agree with that.

    There is a lot of hidden knowledge hide there, esoteric knowledge I mean.
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    Mar 03, 2015 9:02 AM GMT
    awg90 saidHow do you believe in a book that promotes slavery, stoning to death for ridiculous reasons, and lots of other nonsense? Or do you pick and choose what you believe in from the book?


    Again, as I said before. Old Testament. New Testament. Most people don't understand the difference. People also don't understand allegories either. Many of the scriptures in the bible were allegories pointing to a larger message/lesson. Also, the New Testament spoke of the wrath of God, the New Testament spoke of the grace of God thru Christ the redeemer. After Christ, who died for sins...stonings werent condoned by God.

    I believe there was a lot of evil in the world in the BC days. Just looking at (albeit Hollywood created) shows like Spartacus, people were killing each other left and right. It's like that now you think, but atleast it's considered wrong. There's laws. Back then, Someone says you died, you died. That was it. Life had little value. Faith in mankind dwindled, and it almost came to an end. That's why God sent the physical messiah. As the nations came to know him, peace came unto the world...Amd that's where we see the sudden increase in intellectual gain, technology, enlightenment, etc.

    Also, the same guy I was having the discussion with said, "if Adam and Eve were the original humans, that means we're all brothers and sisters" I said yes. He says, "well why is everyone killing each other, war, etc. we're all killing our brothers." I told him, the first physical killing of a man happened to be Cain towards Abel, a brother.. so there you go. See...and that's when the scriptures come into play.
  • venue35

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    Mar 03, 2015 10:36 AM GMT
    pazzy saidanother topic coming from a prostitute that doesn't want to be judged for his occupation and lifestyle but wants to judge others based off of things such as belief systems and appearance. he really thinks he's better than everybody else too.

    when are you going to stop?

    what he does with his body is his business.
    I thought you were against slutshaming??
    His thread isn't offensive or stupid so why attack him like that??
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    Mar 03, 2015 11:50 AM GMT
    venue35 said
    pazzy saidanother topic coming from a prostitute that doesn't want to be judged for his occupation and lifestyle but wants to judge others based off of things such as belief systems and appearance. he really thinks he's better than everybody else too.

    when are you going to stop?

    what he does with his body is his business.
    I thought you were against slutshaming??
    His thread isn't offensive or stupid so why attack him like that??


    Because it's easier to attack the person than the argument.

    I think a lot of gays (and others) turn away from Christianity because of how much we have been hurt by those who claim to speak for God. The reality is we like to see ourselves as rational creatures. But we mostly make decisions based on emotion and gut feelings. We then look for reasons for why we believe what we believe in a post hoc analysis.

    There is no good reason you can't be friends with or date people with different beliefs than you. If we all believed the same thing there'd be no growth or change.
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    Mar 03, 2015 11:54 AM GMT
    Gays who don't believe in the Bible?

    Seems fair, since the Bible doesn't believe in Gays....

    icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Mar 03, 2015 1:43 PM GMT
    I have more trouble befriending gays who DO believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Dealing with someone with arrested reasoning abilities, whose beliefs aren't grounded in reality, is intellectually like spending time with an immature child who still believes in Santa Claus.
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    Mar 03, 2015 2:00 PM GMT
    awg90 saidHow do you believe in a book that promotes slavery, stoning to death for ridiculous reasons, and lots of other nonsense? Or do you pick and choose what you believe in from the book?
    Youre statement just shows how ignorant you and many other people are about this topic. Jesus supposedly dying on the cross for us took away all our sins past present and future as long as you can accept Christ. The old testament is no longer relevant because Jesus is our savior. A part of the old testament is about God freeing slaves (the Jews) Maybe next time you should at least make sure you have some proper knowledge on the subject before you cast stones.
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    Mar 03, 2015 2:31 PM GMT
    FuzzyPecs27 saidBut his views about creation dumbfounded me. It went as far as his not even believing in God, Adam and Eve, and the bible.
    I think you'll find people more dumbfounded that you've never met an atheist, or even a theistic evolutionist for that matter. You do know many Christians reject a literal Adam and Eve and don't believe the Bible is 100% inerrant right?

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    Mar 03, 2015 4:24 PM GMT
    FuzzyPecs27

    His views about creation dumbfounded me. It went as far as his not even believing in God, Adam and Eve, and the bible.

    Stephenoabc

    Believing in God - He is in error. God does exist. The God of Ancient Israel lost three important Wars to the God of the Ancient Roman Empire whose God was the planet Jupiter. Yes, when you make up God, a powerful, real, material deity, like a planet or a Solar System or elemental forces lets you know the real deal.

    Jesus told us to separate ourselves from the God of Israel.
    Watch the last hour of this video:



    As Jesus cohered with Hebrew scripture, his Last Supper bread and wine metaphor has the hardest lesson for all Christians to learn: one must separate oneself from the God of Israel, a nation-God.

    Adam and Eve - yes, on face value it falls short. How can their son go to another city of people? Again, because it's a nation-building scripture. It's the Adam and Eve of the Hebrews not of humankind.

    On another level, it's a lesson in Egyptology. Go to my profile and see the Adam and Eve video.

    The Bible - I'm a Subject Matter Expert. There are lessons in biographies of people and histories of nations, however they are told. The Bible should not be dismissed. It has some value in the biographies of people and histories of peoples written.

    FuzzyPecs27

    When I presented my beliefs from what I've been taught and read over the years, he just made it seem like the only reason I believe that, is because I've been brainwashed to believe it as a kid, and that's the only reason.

    Stephenoabc

    Yes, the Bible is preserved by religious institutions which do not present it objectively but as a book to be preserved by glass ceiling and by the brainwashing needed to conserve/preserve its status.

    FuzzyPecs27

    He said that one day, the bible will be exposed as a fraud, and asking me what I'll do about it.

    Stephenoabc

    Yes, to a certain extent the Bible is a fraud. Jesus admitted that.

    During the Great Tribulation, when Jerusalem is seen to be surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand.
    “Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city of Jerusalem escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city,
    for these days are the [days] of punishment.
    [When all the Judaic scriptures are fulfilled, the days will not be days of rejoicing for Judea but days of punishment for the People of the Book.]

    Yes, those who believe in the Bible are doomed to the punishment of defeat. The statement has qualifications, but categorically, those who believe in the Bible are doomed to the punishment of defeat. Think Jesus. Think of the rebels who fought for the God of Israel against the Roman Empire, in three Jewish-Roman Wars.

    FuzzyPecs27

    It annoyed me, but at the same time I told him that the bottom line is...believe what you believe in, and I'll believe what I believe in.

    Stephenoabc

    No, the bottom line is where the facts fall.

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    Mar 03, 2015 4:32 PM GMT
    Religious conversations between people that don't share the same views that are open without judgment are rare. It takes the right people.
    In the Navy I had a friend who was very religious and I am just spiritual. We talked and listened to each other and it was always fun. I believe it was because we are both comfortable with our beliefs and do not need to be right.
    Streangth of faith is tricky. The louder one shouts the more suspect is their steangth of it in my opinion.
  • JackDoyle

    Posts: 706

    Mar 03, 2015 4:33 PM GMT
    Most people in general don't believe in the bible anymore not just gays, why should we believe in something written by humans so long ago, life is so different now than it was back then, it doesn't apply to modern life at all