Why does virulent Anti-Semitism play such a large role in MidEast discussions on RJ?

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 05, 2015 8:20 AM GMT
    AyaTrollah JTheM/pouncer's Anti-Semitism is as legendary as his pathological lies: he hates and seeks to diminish Jews and all things Jewish: the Jewish Language (Hebrew), Jewish Religion (Judaism), Jewish Holidays (Hanukkah and Purim), Jewish culture, Jewish history and of course the Jewish State (Israel), including the absurd denial that Jews are an ethnic group. [21 June 2016 Edit: he has long opined that there can't be peace without Jews being punished, and last week clarified they will be "paying up handsomely, and begging, humbly, for forgiveness."]

    More obvious but no less odious is roadrageRob's overt and vulgar Anti-Semitism, spewing gems such as: "Jews have it coming", "Jews are international troublemakers" and "Jews need to learn a hard lesson".

    Enter racistbritguy:

    nicebritguy saidHow could a country, carved out of guilt for Europeans and Americans to flock to on the basis of their religion, that strips the indigenous population of their human rights, slaughters them, imprisons them conventionally or on a patch of land, and then slowly but surely begins to encroach on that very piece of land itself with more Europeans and Americans, ever be described as civilised?

    Here we start to see the rudimentary misunderstandings which reveal an Anti-Semitic bent based on the denial of Jewish ethnicity:

    BG1. Mandate Palestine, entrusted to re-establish the Jewish state, was "carved out" after WW I, a quarter century before the Holocaust.

    AyaTrollah pouncer> Early drafts of the Mandate document conflating Palestine with the "Jewish national home" were rejected, with the phrase "reconstitute IT their national home" replaced with "the establishment IN Palestine of a national home".

    So did the final document, both in the preamble and the key Article 2:

    || The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing THE COUNTRY under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions

    It speaks not of a Jewish bantustan, but of ("in", not "within") "the country" and these are the only instruments of "self-governing" mentioned.

    Article 25 excludes the 80% of Eastern (Trans-Jordanian) Palestine from the area allocated to the "Jewish National Home" ("State", the language from the Balfour Declaration being preserved but the clear intent of the Mandate system was to produce States, not bantustans).

    ONLY the area east of the Jordan river is exempted from the Jewish state.
    This is abundantly clear from the rest of the Document, still he seeks to misconstrue - out of context - "in" as "within".

    AyaTrollah> Yet after a wave of revitalized anti-Semitism, including the infamous pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe.

    Decades earlier (1821-1906), nothing to do with Britain (or France) but the culmination of nearly 2,000 years of European/Christian Anti-Semitism. (The last round from 1917-1922 was too recent to influence events that started unfolding during WW I and culminated in the Balfour Declaration of 1917).

    How odd that the AyaTrollah raises this when below he attempts to argue that Jews were welcome citizens in those and other areas.
    As if they shared ethnicity with neighbors who murdered them.

    BG2. Most of its founders were secular, it is a Jewish state in the same sense that Hungary is the Magyar state.

    AyaTrollah> Judaism is not an ethnicity (Jews are white, black, Latino...), and "Magyar" is simply the Hungarian word for "Hungarian", ie. a national of Hungary based on CITIZENSHIP, not on ethnic race myths.

    Racist much? "white, black, Latino" are NOT ethnicities.

    Judaism is a religion. The religion of the Jewish people.
    Being Jewish is an ethnicity.

    Hungary provides fast-track immigration to Magyars who are NOT citizens precisely because it is the state of the Magyar people/ethnicity. It is thus no coincidence that more than 92% of Hungarian citizens are ethnic Magyars. (The next largest group being less than 2%).

    Similarly 96% of Thailand's citizens are ethnic Thai.


    BG3. We also see the transformation from the Old Anti-Semitism to the New Anti-Semitism. Jews, who in Europe were generally regarded as transients who didn't belong there and were barely if rarely tolerated, are suddenly "Europeans and Americans" when they are back in their homeland? Despite a plethora of recent genetic DNA evidence confirming not just that they aren't "Polish" or "French" - which everyone knows - but that they are very closely related to virtually all Jews worldwide.

    AyaTrollah> eruptions of "anti-Semitism" consistently coincide with public relations debacles involving Israel?

    One has nothing to do with the other. 100 years ago Europeans were happy to say that Jews were not Poles or Europeans, that they were their own "race", and happy to see them go off to some desert where they would be murdered by Arabs.

    Today people like AyaTrollah pouncer and not-so-nicebritguy claim that Jews are Europeans rather than constitute their own ethnicity and thus have no right to a state like other peoples. (Even while championing self-determination for a 20th century creation, precisely because they seek it at the expense of the Jews. Thus other potential solutions are rejected.) This shift is not because, unlike their grand-parents, they tolerate Jews but because, like their grand-parents, they still hate Jews.

    AyaTrollah> The vast bulk of European anti-Semitism was religious, not "racial"

    Jews who converted to Christianity were still persecuted and sent to the gas chambers.

    The term "Anti-Semitism" was itself invented (by Jew haters) to combat emancipation during the enlightenment. A Jew, even if he converted, was still a vile Jew. (The nazis would later clarify to their Arab allies, including the Arabs of Mandate Palestine, that Anti-Semitism was specifically about Jews, not non-Christians let alone "Semites".)

    AyaTrollah> if a Polish or French Jew were asked a few centuries ago what their nationality was they would have said "Polish" or "French", Judaism being their religion. If you asked them whether in fact they were not Polish/French but a national of "Am Yisra'el", they would likely not even know what it meant.

    A complete misreading not just of Jewish history (Am Yisrael, the nation of Israel, dates back to Biblical times), but of European history. Almost surprising from someone who claimed to be a history major until we remember that was just another Pathological pouncer lie. Turns out he was a music history major before he flunked out.

    It wouldn't have even been possible prior to the French Revolution and Napoleon (so at most we're talking about a brief period in the 19th century). Prior to that most Jews weren't even citizens.

    Even then the reality is that borders shifted and governments came and went. When the Turks encroached into Romania, the people that came under their rule didn't become Turkish. Same when it became part of Austro-Hungary or under White Russian rule. Those who spoke Romanian remained Romanian, and Jews remained Jews.

    What idiocy next? Navajo are just a religious group (following the Navajo gods), not a tribal ethnicity, they were Americans (despite lack of citizenship and persecution) in the 19th century?

    AyaTrollah> "citizenship" (as Europe has done now for 200-300 years) but seeks to determine nationality by "race".

    Closer to 200 in some places, much less in others. To this day ethnicity and citizenship are not mutually exclusive. Scores of countries grant fast track citizenship to the primary ethnic group (lex sanguinis, citizenship by "blood"). Anti-Semites like Propaganda pouncer pretend that Israel doing so makes it unique and racist
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 05, 2015 8:23 AM GMT
    BG4. So-called nicebritguy overlooks that the majority of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi (who returned from Europe) but Sepharadi and Mizrahi (from other MidEast countries). At the other end, he confuses Arabs as "indigenous" despite the fact that many if not most arrived in recent centuries - more recently than Europeans arrived in the Americas (will anyone call them "indigenous" while pretending that a Chippewa whose family fled to Canada and who returns to the US is a "Canadian" invader?).

    AyaTrollah> Ashkenazis make up about 50% of Israel's Jews while Sefardis/Mizrahis make up about 40%.

    Which gives us another glimpse into his sick mind. Recent numbers are skewed by the arrival of about 1 million Jews from the USSR when they could finally emigrate in the 1990s. Immigrants he has claimed aren't really Jews. But now he categorizes them as Ashkenazi?

    We also see how the petty propagandist prefers to argue over a few percentage points while completely missing the forest. So let's say it's about 50% (rather than 49%). Does that have any impact on the point in BG4? Nope. It's just the AyaTrollah swinging wildly and missing.

    BG5. Unfortunately for him, he's further completely wrong in his accusations. Israeli Arabs are not stripped of human rights but enjoy full citizenship and equal protection under the law. They (including women) not only vote but form political parties and serve in the parliament, including as government ministers. They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassadors. They serve in the judiciary, including on the High (Supreme) Court - the only such Court in the region where an Arab can sue his government, live to tell about it, and win/lose solely on the basis of the legal arguments. Israeli Arabs even serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, defending their country, achieving ranks as high as Major General (including the commanders of the Border Police and Home Front Command).

    BG6. If his concern is the human rights of the Arabs in the disputed territories, then he must know that 97% of them were transferred under the rule of the Palestinian Authority (with a reduction of human rights and liberties) and that those in Gaza now live under even worse Hamas brutality. But why fault Israel for the lack of freedom of religion or of the press under Hamas and the PA?


    nicebritguy saidthe point about the Iron Dome - why is Israeli life worthy of protection but Palestinian life isn't? Do you know the stats on how many Israeli's where killed compared to how many Palestinians were killed?

    So many perversions here again that it's hard to know where to start.

    BG7. The mind boggles at the accusation that Israel is horrible because it invests in defensive systems (anti-missile missiles, advance warning alarms, bomb shelters) while Hamas invests in attack tunnels, military bunkers (under hospitals), missiles and suicide bombers while ignoring the needs of their people.

    AyaTrollah> Who said Israel is horrible because of the lives it saves

    Then why compare death tolls and complain about the ratio, which is skewed because Israel does what it can to protect its people and soldiers (e.g. body armor) while Hamas does what it can to endanger its population? (e.g. suicide bombers, launching rockets - knowing there will be legitimate return fire - from amidst densely populated areas, using scores of thousands of people as human shields).

    BG8. Should we likewise judge Britain/USA by comparing how many Brits/Americans (civilians and soldiers) were killed during WW II vs the number of Germans killed? (Hint: German deaths outnumbered American, British and French - combined!)

    nicebritguy saidthe head of a genocidal regime? Then he had the audacity to show an holocaust survivor - like, 'oh look, here's the victim of the sort of act that I'm perpetuating'.

    BG9. Here not-so-nicebritishguy shows us just how revolting he truly is. During the height of the Holocaust, some 10,000 Jews were murdered in cold blood daily. Day after day. Year after year. And this "sort of" "genocidal" "act" is the same because every few years in a war started by Hamas a few hundred civilians are killed (primarily because Hamas hides behind their own people, firing missiles at Israeli civilians from the midst of Gaza)?

    AyaTrollah> it was Israel that broke the (de facto) April 2005 truce with Hamas.

    Not only missing the point, but showing us the strange standard that when Hamas perpetrates violence it is at worst a "breach" of a cease-fire but if Israel responds (or acts pre-emptively) then it is "breaking" the ceasefire.

    What is wrong with the AyaTrollah that he can't simply agree with the obvious point that there is absolutely zero similarity between methodically executing 12 million people in cold blood and death tolls of a few hundred civilians during pitched fighting in urban population centers (which is Hamas' choice)?

    Likewise he denies the obvious, that Hamas intentionally fires rockets from populated centers:

    AyaTrollah> Appears to be false also in 2014.

    51479394-512x314.jpg

    Some 5,000 rockets like this were fired in mid-2014 (from behind Palestinian Arab human shields, directed at Israeli civilians).

    What we see is that the AyaTrollah hates Jews/Israelis more than he actually cares for the Palestinian Arabs. Indeed, he's willing to sacrifice every last one of them to murder Jews.

    BG10. Will racistbritguy next come out as a Holocaust denier, thus the alleged similarity? Because Jews weren't really murdered, it was just another Jewish scam?

    BG11. Yesterday AyaTrollah pouncer documented "genocide" of the Arab population a quarter century ago. Yet it has gone from "750,000" UP to around 4 million. In contrast, Poland's Jewish community, in just a handful of years, dropped from 3 million to 100,000.


    AyaTrollah> I never used the word "genocide"

    But racistbritguy has used it repeatedly (and you have used it previously).
    Why haven't you objected and corrected him?!


    BG12. By that measure, Britain and the USA must have perpetrated even worse "genocide" and "holocaust" and are even less civilized than Israel. In Falluja, during the Gulf War, in a shorter period they killed more civilians (and a higher civilian/terrorist ratio) than Israel in Gaza.

    AyaTrollah> Who doubts that America has far more blood on its hands than Israel?

    Never mind that the qualitative (and quantitative) differences are lost on the AyaTrollah, but it also doesn't occur to him that for racists like him and racistbritguy the topic is always Israel (with zero perspective or context). Simply because, as we repeatedly see (and they love digging deeper), they hate Jews and that is what forms their view. "Facts" are then mined, fabricated or ignored to support their biased preconceived premises (masqueraded as conclusions) in an infamous reversal of the scientific method.

    BG13. What kind of a hatist racist does it take to compare Israel/Gaza to nazis/Holocaust rather than to Allies/Fallujah?!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 05, 2015 8:25 AM GMT
    racistbritguy saidWhere in my posts, did I confuse Arabs with the indigenous population of Israel? I didn't. You are the one, that simply because I mention the indigenous population, assume that I'm referring to Arabs. The term Arab is a pan-ethnic linguistic term. So just because a muslim in Israel speaks Arabic, and they refer to themselves as Arab, does not elucidate as to what their ethnicity is. The Palestinians are people who converted. People who's ancestors live in Israel/Palestine for millennia. You think millions upon millions of arabs just sprang out of Mecca in the 7th century? No. Conquered people converted.

    BG14. Except that Arab is also an ethnicity and the Arabs of Mandate Palestine, only became known as "Palestinians" in the latter half of the 20th century. Previously there was no such ethnic group (indeed, Edward Said laments that under Ottoman Turkish rule, there were no borders and Arabs could come and go as they please). In fact, an Arab in Jericho was ethnically closer to an Arab in Amman* (Jordan) than to an Arab in Gaza. An Arab in Gaza is closer to an Arab in El Arish and Port Said (Egypt) than to one in Acre. An Arab in Acre is closer to one in Sidon (Lebanon) than to that first Arab in Jericho.

    BG15. *Under the Arab dynasties, Amman was part of Falastin while Haifa, Nazareth, Safed and Tiberius were not

    BG16. While there are anecdotes of rare conversions or of a particular clan, the masses were not converted. Had they been they wouldn't have lost the ability to pronounce "P" (which Arabic lacks, thus immediately mispronouncing their alleged homeland as Falastin rather than Palestine as it had then been officially known as for 500 years).

    BG17. You would then also be able to say which group it was that converted because they would have a history that goes further back than that.

    BG18. Yet they themselves traced their ancestry elsewhere in the Arab world, as Qais (northern) or Yamani (southern) Arabs, a distinction that ran so deep that it was a battle line into the 19th century.

    BG19. This is why you don't say they were Canaanites (those who didn't originally form the Israelite confederacy assimilated into it by the 9th century BCE and were lost to history as a distinct group) or Philistines (annihilated by the Babylonians in 604 BCE).

    BG20. Nor does this have anything to do with Islam. What about those who are Christians and only arrived 500 years ago (like the founders of Ramallah)?

    BG21. Again, had someone converted, you would be able to reference the group (e.g. Kurds who converted). Yet throughout the Middle East and North Africa you have group after group that (converted or not) remained distinct: Armenians, Assyrians, Bedouins, Berbers, Chaldeans, Circassians, Copts, Druze, Jews, Kurds, Samaritans, Turkomen... (I'm sure I'm missing some).

    BG22. Not only do their own modern histories claim they are Arabs from Arabia, Arab historians 1,000 years ago recorded the names of the Arab tribes who migrated here (history also captured well known and more recent migrations).

    BG23. Migrations which are confirmed by modern genetic DNA analysis.

    BG24. Even Hamas recently appealed to its Arab neighbors by reminding them that the Palestinian Arabs came from their countries and are their Egyptian and Syrian brothers, etc.

    BG25. Consider further that due to the relatively recent animosity between the Arab Bedouin and the urban Arabs in the area that became "Palestine" after WW I, the Bedouins were not considered "Palestinians" (nor were Armenians or Samaritans, etc). Today they are, and this retroactively makes them part of this mysterious and previously unknown ethnic group?

    BG26. So which group was it that converted into the "Palestinians?

    You can find further documentation for everything I said above here:

    Arabs are not indigenous to Israel - now confirmed by Hamas
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/979648
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 05, 2015 8:28 AM GMT
    racistbritguy saidhow could I be an anti-semite? If I am a defender of Arabs, how could I also hate them?

    ROTFL. I was expecting this idiotic and incompetent argument.

    BG27. Words don't mean the sum of their parts.
    Do you drive on a drive-way and park on a park-way?
    Anti-Semite means Jew-hater, not someone who hates Semites.
    Semites are speakers of Semitic languages (unless you are invoking a 3,000 year old anthropology with no basis in fact).
    Half of Ethiopians speak a Semitic language. Does this make Ethiopians "Semites"?
    How can Anti-Semites know if they are supposed to hate Ethiopians or which ones?

    BG28. Furthermore this argument contradicts the one above. The Palestinian Arabs are Semites precisely because they are, ethnically, Arabs . If they descended from Canaanites or Philistines they wouldn't be Semites but Hamites.


    racistbritguy saidMaybe you should take a walk in any city in Israel. Maybe you should visit a settlement. If you do, you'll meet lots and lots of blue-eyed, blond haired Jews. Of course some Jews are indigenous to the region, but many aren't, and Israel, is what it is today, due to Europeans and Americans migrating there.

    BG29. King David was blue eyed and ginger, but thanks for showing that you don't have a clue about genetics and depend on superficial features - exactly as nazi racial "science" did. (Those racists, at least, lived prior to the discovery of DNA. What's your excuse?!)

    BG30. Modern DNA analysis reveals that virtually ALL Jews originate in the Middle East. As noted above, the minority that came from Europe to Israel, when they sojourned in Europe, was never considered "European" (like that's an ethnicity? Were they Polish? No. German? No. Russian or Ukranian? No and No).

    racistbritguy saidFurthermore, why are you conflating my views on Israel - a political state, with my views on Jews?

    BG31. I'm not. It's painfully obvious that your views of Israel, the Jewish state, are informed by your racist views of Jews.

    racistbritguy saidyou're as white as I am, and I'm a ginger Viking! So is this a thing in the US that I've yet to encounter? Jews thinking they are somehow Middle Eastern, when they are quite clearly caucasian?

    ROTFL. Let's both sit out in the desert sun for a few hours, with no sun screen, and see who gets a nice tan and who burns.

    BG32. I suspect that if a racist like you looked at some of my ancestors and relatives (as if you can see DNA with your bare eyes) you would claim on the basis of their dark features that they are not "white/caucasian".

    BG33. Note the parallel in the "one drop rule":
    A guy with 15 white ancestors and one black one is not white?
    A guy with 15 Jewish ancestors and one who was a Cossack - who raped his great-grandmother during a pogrom - is not Jewish?

    Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people.
    (Judaism is a religion, Jews are an ethnic group)

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/494893
  • Hypertrophile

    Posts: 1021

    Mar 05, 2015 3:45 PM GMT
    You shouldn't call it TL: DR, you should call it TL:TMFT
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    Mar 05, 2015 7:18 PM GMT
    To answer this thread's title question, it's the same old reason that's motivated anti-Semites for centuries: jealousy and envy. Add to that the next-door, daily, tangible reminder that Israel provides to the so-called "Palestinians" of what hard work and embracing Western democracy can accomplish, and you've got the essentials for why Israel and Jews, are subjected to the ridiculous accusations and hatred they are. And, that Iran comes rather late to that game, all the more reason for it to be especially virulent in doing so.

    Well cataloged, Michigander. Go Blue - and white!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 06, 2015 11:34 PM GMT
    One more (brief) point that also serves as a summary:
    racistbritguy saidwhat their ethnicity is. The Palestinians are people who converted.

    As noted above, that is generally incorrect (about conversion), which is why the group prior to "conversion" can't be identified. Regardless, the relevant point here is the racist double standard:

    Jews and their descendants who didn't "convert" (remained Jewish) aren't an ethnicity because being Jewish is just a religion, but those who did "convert" (to Islam or Christianity) and their descendants constitute an ethnicity?!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 20, 2015 4:39 AM GMT
    The pathological racist couldn't help himself, eh?
    33 enumerated points above, and all he can do is must this straw-man non-sequitur?

    pouncer saidRemember this?

    Jewish student behind some dorm swastikas

    The “New Antisemitism” returns:

    Another swastika at GW. This one was posted by a Jewish student

    Or maybe he was trying to respond to this point?

    BG10. Will racistbritguy next come out as a Holocaust denier, thus the alleged similarity? Because Jews weren't really murdered, it was just another Jewish scam?

    See the "logic" about "scams"?
    As if a swastika drawn by a Jewish student precludes the other 99% of bona fide incidents?

    What idiocy next? A woman faked a rape claim therefore rape isn't a problem anymore?!
    A gay guy scrawled "Kill fags" on a dorm mirror therefore gay-bashing doesn't really exist?!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 20, 2015 4:43 AM GMT
    It's what's known as the 3 D's:

    Delegitimize
    Demonize
    Double Standard
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 20, 2015 4:13 PM GMT
    Why does virulent Anti-Semitism play such a large role in MidEast discussions on RJ?

    It doesn't. Almost all "discussion" on RJ consists of you - the knee-jerk rabid Israel supporter, and Pouncer, the knee-jerk rabid Israel hater, inundating the site with verbal diarrhea, which most of the rest of us skim over, if we read at all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 20, 2015 4:18 PM GMT
    pouncer saidNo one reads your nonsense.

    Certainly no one reads your racist crap anymore. Same old tired Jew-hate, post after post.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 20, 2015 4:53 PM GMT
    I can see that, HikerSkier, but other people do weigh in from time to time - and did moreseo before Propaganda pouncer lowered every discussion to his gutter. Indeed, when people here heard he had stalked me on Facebook, they asked who he was so they could pre-emptively block him (and his sock puppets). They want no interaction with him. Indeed, at others' requests, I have attempted not to engage the troll as in each thread (even one about hummus!) he regurgitates his endless nonsense.

    Many of the recent threads about Netanyahu and the Israeli election were started by others, but sadly they have just been used as a wedge issue between the "conservapossy" and the "liberals". Still, even there, it is interesting to see some of the comments that arise.

    Never mind the well-known RJ lunatics roadrageRob (of "Jews have it coming" infamy) and AyaTrollah pouncer (of one Jewish state "is one too many" infamy), but nicebritguy (as documented above) and even credo (who compared Netanyahu to hitler, just better at hiding the bodies, claiming that Israel is doing to Arabs throughout the mideast what the nazis did to the Jews).

    If some people are uttering these Anti-Semitic rants (with little-to-no objection from others), how many more are just thinking it?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 20, 2015 5:48 PM GMT
    mwolverine saidI can see that, HikerSkier, but other people do weigh in from time to time - and did moreseo before Propaganda pouncer lowered every discussion to his gutter. Indeed, when people here heard he had stalked me on Facebook, they asked who he was so they could pre-emptively block him (and his sock puppets). They want no interaction with him. Indeed, at others' requests, I have attempted not to engage the troll as in each thread (even one about hummus!) he regurgitates his endless nonsense.

    Many of the recent threads about Netanyahu and the Israeli election were started by others, but sadly they have just been used as a wedge issue between the "conservapossy" and the "liberals". Still, even there, it is interesting to see some of the comments that arise.

    Never mind the other well-known RJ lunatics roadrageRob (of "Jews have it coming" infamy) and AyaTrollah pouncer (of one Jewish state "is one too many" infamy), but nicebritguy (as documented above) and even credo (who compared Netanyahu to hitler, just better at hiding the bodies, claiming that Israel is doing to Arabs throughout the mideast what the nazis did to the Jews).

    If some people are uttering these Anti-Semitic rants (with little-to-no objection from others), how many more are just thinking it?

    I am sure there are a number of anti-semitic guys on RJ, as there are everywhere else. Pouncer appears to be, although even he may only hate Israel, and not Jews, for all I know (I obviously don't read much of what he posts.)

    BTW, I don't see the post of nicebritguy that you quoted as anti-semitic - only of being anti-Israel.

    However, you are apparently equating disagreement with (or even hatred for) the policies of the State of Israel (or the government itself) with anti-semitism. They are not the same. It seems that every post which criticizes Israel is regarded by you as anti-semitic. I haven't read a lot of what roadrage writes here, but I would disagree that Credo (whom I have read to be a liberal) has posted "anti-semitic" writings. He obviouisly thinks, as do many americans, including american Jews, that certain Israeli polices in regard to Palestinians in recent years are vile and disgusting (to a liberal mind). That is not at all the same as hating Jews. I can't know if Credo hates Jews, but I sincerely doubt it.

    Some of us are a bit more objective than I would say, you are - in the sense that we can view Israel as a country like any other. As a country, it acts in the world, and its actions have effects, which people and other countries can agree with or not - support or condemn. Not every one swallows and follows the AIPAC party line as gospel. You may be unaware, but there are a lot of Jews in the USA who are not in agreement with Israel's actions in recent years. Would you call them anit-semitic as well?

    [And what does it mean that Pouncer's tagline is in Hebrew? Is he possibly Jewish, as well?]

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 20, 2015 7:34 PM GMT
    HikerSkier saidI don't see the post of nicebritguy that you quoted as anti-semitic - only of being anti-Israel.

    Perhaps, but first there is a difference between opposing certain Israeli policies and being "anti-Israel". When one then volunteers that Jews are just a religious group, not an ethnicity, with no right to self-determination as other national groups, that obviously crosses the line into Anti-Semitism. It also suggests why they are "anti-Israel", regardless of current policies (e.g. roadrageRob now pretends it's all about Netanyahu, but he was just as ridiculously anti-Israel when Olmert and Barak were Prime Minister).

    I'm reminded of an on-line discussion in which a couple of Pakistanis participated. One claimed that Israel was evil because it was controlled by homosexuals (and, you know, didn't execute them). The other, at a European university and more tuned in, claimed Israel was evil because it discriminated against homosexuals. Rather than discuss Israel vis-a-vis homosexuality, they happily agreed that Israel was evil. They didn't care about X or NotX, just the allegedly implied conclusion Y.

    The "reasons" they hate or are anti-Israel don't add up. They are just pretenses and rationalizations.

    HikerSkier saidIt seems that every post which criticizes Israel is regarded by you as anti-semitic. there are a lot of Jews in the USA who are not in agreement with Israel's actions in recent years. Would you call them anit-semitic as well?...

    Absolutely not. There are a lot of Jews in Israel who are not in agreement, either. But their view is (generally) nuanced and rational. Honest people obviously can honestly disagree on issues.

    HikerSkier saidCredo...obviouisly thinks, as do many americans, including american Jews, that certain Israeli polices in regard to Palestinians in recent years are vile and disgusting (to a liberal mind). That is not at all the same as hating Jews. I can't know if Credo hates Jews, but I sincerely doubt it.

    You have read more of Credo than I have. But when someone claims that Netanyahu is as bad as hitler with Jews doing to the Arabs what the nazis did to the Jews, that is not only not nuanced but outright insane. His opinion here obviously isn't remotely factual. What then informs him?

    HikerSkier saidAnd what does it mean that Pouncer's tagline is in Hebrew? Is he possibly Jewish, as well?

    While he initially presented himself as a "Brit of Irish background", several years later he started claiming he had Jewish background/descent as if that would lend credence to his hateful nonsense. Given that he denies Jewish ethnicity (it's allegedly just a religious group), it only serves to underscore how he argues from contradicting premises in an attempt to "prove" a point.

    He's also been caught lying about having and reading a book that was only available in Hebrew, but when asked what the first word on a randomly selected page (100?) was, he couldn't provide it. Even after I uploaded a scan of that page (I guess my library is pretty extensive. It's the 3rd time he's referenced - and lied about - a book, only for me to pull it off my shelf and expose him.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 20, 2015 7:54 PM GMT
    pouncer saidmw knows I'm of half-Jewish background, but denies it out of necessity, as he does any other Jewish member who disagrees with what he says, like tokugawa and others (there was a member a few years ago who said as a Jew he disagreed with Israel, to which mw's reply was something to the effect of "What an obvious lie!")

    I never claimed tokugawa wasn't Jewish (add that to the long list of Propaganda pouncer's lies), nor do I know that the AyaTrollah is "half-Jewish" (as noted, he originally claimed to be "a Brit of Irish background), only years later claiming to also be partially Jewish.

    Yet if Jewish doesn't denote an ethnicity and is only a religious group (as he claims), how can one be "half-Jewish"? Does that mean he only goes to Synagogue every other Sabbath?

    I'm not sure he's even really a Brit, as some of his sock puppets have claimed otherwise and he himself has posted as "we" in reference to America.

    In reality, AyaTrollah pouncer hates not just Israel (the Jewish state) but everything Jewish. Hebrew, the Jewish language. Judaism, the Jewish religions. Jewish history. Jewish holidays. All of which he has gone out of his way, repeatedly, to denigrate here on RJ. Even in topics about humus.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 20, 2015 10:26 PM GMT
    Did you ever figure out what the first word on that page was?

    Lots of AyaTrollah gaffes documented here:

    Intellectual dishonesty hall of shame
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1443151
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Mar 22, 2015 6:21 AM GMT
    pouncer said
    Sharkspeare said
    pouncer saidNo one reads your nonsense.

    Certainly no one reads your racist crap anymore. Same old tired Jew-hate, post after post.

    Eat your heart out.

    Not following. Do I sound envious of you? Can you be that far removed from reality?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 23, 2015 2:35 PM GMT
    I never claimed tokugawa wasn't Jewish (add that to the long list of Propaganda pouncer's lies)

    AyaTrolLiar> c has implied several times that people like me and tokugawa aren't Jewish

    Still no quotes of me saying Tokugawa wasn't Jewish?

    How odd that you didn't start claiming to be Jewish till years after engaging in debate, previously calling yourself a "Brit of Irish background".

    AyaTrolLiar> Totally misleading. I mentioned my Irish heritage I believe in ONE thread

    How idiotic protesting that you only mentioned it "in ONE thread".
    Like that isn't enough?

    Yet you mentioned your Jewish heritage in none, for years.

    Why didn't you then say "A Brit of Irish and Jewish background"?
    Why pretend to summarize your heritage but leave out half of it?
    Perhaps, given his Anti-Semitism, he was ashamed of being a Jew and thus opted not to identify as Jewish?
    Or maybe it's just another in his merry-go-round of lies?


    If Jewish doesn't denote an ethnicity and is only a religious group (as he claims), how can one be "half-Jewish"?

    AyaTrolLiar> Duh, it means one of my parents (and half my recent ancestors - as far as I'm aware) were Jews.

    Yet if one parent and half of your ancestors were Muslim but you were a Christian, you would not claim to be "half-Muslim" but would state that one of your parents (not you) is Muslim.


    I'm not sure he's even really a Brit as some of his sock puppets have claimed otherwise and he himself has posted as "we" in reference to America.

    AyaTrolLiar> A blatant lie. I don't use sock puppets and the only "we" I might have ever used is in reference to the West, not America.

    Aside from a "we" reference to the American taxpayer, the former is the blatant lie. On Facebook he blocked me so that he could argue against what I say without me seeing it (and refuting him). Obviously having blocked me he wouldn't be able to see what I said to comment on it so it's clear he used a sock puppet account on Facebook (on RJ it might be true, but that's because the "ignore" function works differently and it's doubtful that he ever did "ignore" me).

    21 June 2016 Edit: That he doesn't use sock puppets was exposed as another lie this year, when "Kariak" turned out to be his sock puppet (he started using that account after he was banned, then renamed it, got banned again and came back as JTheM). He used the Kariak account to view me daily to see what threads I posted to, and those are the threads that his main pouncer account would participate in (thus never posting in any thread other than to respond to me). Even when he claimed to have me on "ignore" and said he would get email from any of his many "friends" quoting me, thus he would respond to that. Ah, the games immature and mental children play.

    AyaTrollah pouncer hates not just Israel (the Jewish state) but everything Jewish

    AyaTrolLiar> Another clue as to c's racist and bigoted mindset. He frequently alleges that I and others were educated in a "madrassa", as our "irrationality" is apparently Islamic in its extremity

    This is a non-sequitur, but as I've already corrected you madrasa is not exclusive to Islam. I'm [not] surprised, given your [cough] command [cough] of Hebrew, you don't recognize it as a Hebrew word. And being a half-breed Jew, it's odd you don't know that Judaic religious school is also a Midrasha.

    The reference is to your lack not just of knowledge, but lack of logic and constant reversal of the scientific method. As if you were (at best) educated in a religious school where those aren't priorities.


    hates everything Jewish: Hebrew, the Jewish language. Judaism, the Jewish religions. Jewish history. Jewish holidays. All of which he has gone out of his way, repeatedly, to denigrate here on RJ. Even in topics about humus

    AyaTrolLiar> Put forward an example for each, and... I will happily explain what I had to say.

    Your humus fiasco was quite recent:

    Does anyone else use hummus as a spread in sandwiches?
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4021365

    Others were documented here, where over years you have failed to provide any "explanation":

    Intellectual dishonesty hall of shame
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1443151
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 24, 2015 12:32 AM GMT
    Lots of text, but no real answers.
    The usual AyaTrolLiar merry-go-round of lies.

    Why, in a thread discussing the middle east, would someone self identify as "a Brit of Irish background" and only, years later, volunteer that they are "half-Jewish"?

    Why claim to be "half-Jewish" rather than of "Jewish background", as he would say were one parent (but not he himself) Muslim?

    He conveniently overlooks that the Hebrew word Midrasha is older than Arabic (though both languages have common ancestry).

    And completely misses the point about his obvious "madrassa education", exemplifying his inability to reason (use logic) and constant reversal of the scientific method.

    Speaking of education, why did he lie that he was a history major, modify the lie to a European history major (when it became clear he knew nothing about mideast history) when in reality he flunked out of a MUSIC history program?

    Completely obtuse to the hummus point, he pathologically persists: "I made a point of fact" - in a discussion about Hummus!

    His BS about Facebook doesn't even make sense as he references RJ. Absent sock puppets, how could he read - and reference (at times within minutes, with no time for his mythical friends to email him what I wrote) what I wrote on FB? (Ponder the depths of the perversion: stalk someone and reply to him without him being able to see... no wonder he was quickly kicked out of groups and blocked by many.)

    Why did he lie about reading a book in Hebrew when he can't even identify the first word on a page after I post a graphic of the page for him?

    Lastly, and as usual, rather than discuss a subject in a thread dedicated to it, after himself asking for examples, he avoids the thread where that is on topic and seeks to reopen discussion elsewhere.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 24, 2015 7:04 AM GMT
    More of the comedic AyaTrolLiar-go-round, but still no answers:

    Why, in a thread discussing the middle east, would someone self identify as "a Brit of Irish background" and only, years later, volunteer that they are "half-Jewish"?

    Well?


    Why claim to be "half-Jewish" rather than of "Jewish background", as he would say were one parent (but not he himself) Muslim?

    AyaTrolLiar> "Jewish" is the adjective for "Jew". I don't remember saying "half-Jewish" but if I did it had nothing to do with "ethnicity". As I have said Judaism is a culture as well as a religion.

    And this "culture" has its language, traditions, history... pre-dating most ethnic groups. But to this rabid Anti-Semite, Jews are still not an ethnicity.


    He conveniently overlooks that the Hebrew word Midrasha is older than Arabic (though both languages have common ancestry).

    AyaTrolLiar> [babbles]


    Completely misses the point about his obvious "madrassa education", exemplifying his inability to reason (use logic) and constant reversal of the scientific method.

    AyaTrolLiar> [ignored]


    Speaking of education, why did he lie that he was a history major, modify the lie to a European history major (when it became clear he knew nothing about mideast history) when in reality he flunked out of a MUSIC history program?

    AyaTrolLiar> I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

    You are clueless even about what - according to your Facebook page - you studied?
    Which was not what you attempted, fraudulently and with no credibility, to pass yourself off as here?

    Not unlike lying about being half-Jewish, eh?
    To appear to give you credibility precisely because you have none.


    Completely obtuse to the hummus point, he pathologically persists: "I made a point of fact" - in a discussion about Hummus!

    AyaTrolLiar> [ignored, maybe he finally got it.]


    His BS about Facebook doesn't even make sense as he references RJ. Absent sock puppets, how could he read - and reference (at times within minutes, with no time for his mythical friends to email him what I wrote) what I wrote on FB? (Ponder the depths of the perversion: stalk someone and reply to him without him being able to see... no wonder he was quickly kicked out of groups and blocked by many.)

    AyaTrolLiar> [ignored, but what can he already say?]


    Why did he lie about reading a book in Hebrew when he can't even identify the first word on a page after I post a graphic of the page for him?

    Still can't identify that first word?


    Lastly, and as usual, rather than discuss a subject in a thread dedicated to it, after himself asking for examples, he avoids the thread where that is on topic and seeks to reopen discussion elsewhere.

    AyaTrolLiar [proves me right, again.]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 24, 2015 8:54 PM GMT
    But wait, there's more of the comedic AyaTrolLiar-go-round, but still no answers:

    1. Why, in a thread discussing the middle east, would someone self identify as "a Brit of Irish background" and only, years later, volunteer that they are "half-Jewish"?

    Well??


    2. Why claim to be "half-Jewish" rather than of "Jewish background", as he would say were one parent (but not he himself) Muslim?

    AyaTrolLiar> "Jewish" is the adjective for "Jew". I don't remember saying "half-Jewish" but if I did it had nothing to do with "ethnicity". As I have said Judaism is a culture as well as a religion.

    This "culture" has its language, traditions, history... pre-dating most ethnic groups. But to this rabid Anti-Semite, Jews are still not an ethnicity.

    AyaTrolLiar> You still don't know what makes an "ethnic group"

    This from the guy who claims that there's no Polish ethnicity:
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4018911


    3A. He conveniently overlooks that the Hebrew word Midrasha is older than Arabic (though both languages have common ancestry).

    AyaTrolLiar> You seem unable to decide if "madrassa education" isn't Islamophobic because Hebrew has the word "midrash", or because "madrassa" is a term (in Arab/Muslim societies) for secular schools too.

    Glad we agree t isn't Islamophobic.

    3B. Completely misses the point about his obvious "madrassa education", exemplifying his inability to reason (use logic) and constant reversal of the scientific method.

    AyaTrolLiar> ?


    4. Speaking of education, why did he lie that he was a history major, modify the lie to a European history major (when it became clear he knew nothing about mideast history) when in reality he flunked out of a MUSIC history program?

    AyaTrolLiar> Who studied "music history"?

    That's what your Facebook profile said.
    I'm told that info has been removed and not replaced by anything else.

    Maybe that was just another lie, just as you lied about being a "history" and then "European history" major (the latter to cover for epic failures regarding history outside of Europe). Fraudulent attempts to buttress your lies.

    Not unlike lying about being half-Jewish, eh?
    To appear to give you credibility precisely because you have none.


    5. Completely obtuse to the hummus point, he pathologically persists: "I made a point of fact" - in a discussion about Hummus!

    AyaTrolLiar> [Falls silent, just way too late]

    Do you finally get it?


    6. His BS about Facebook doesn't even make sense as he references RJ. Absent sock puppets, how could he read - and reference (at times within minutes, with no time for his mythical friends to email him what I wrote) what I wrote on FB? (Ponder the depths of the perversion: stalk someone and reply to him without him being able to see... no wonder he was quickly kicked out of groups and blocked by many.)

    AyaTrolLiar> [ignored, but what can he already say?]


    7. Why did he lie about reading a book in Hebrew when he can't even identify the first word on a page after I post a graphic of the page for him?

    Still can't identify that first word?


    8. Lastly, and as usual, rather than discuss a subject in a thread dedicated to it, after himself asking for examples, he avoids the thread where that is on topic and seeks to reopen discussion elsewhere.

    AyaTrolLiar [proves me right, again.]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 25, 2015 12:57 PM GMT
    But wait, there's more of the comedic AyaTrolLiar-go-round, but still no answers, just more under-whelming nonsense.

    1. Why, in a thread discussing the middle east, would someone self identify as "a Brit of Irish background" and only, years later, volunteer that they are "half-Jewish"?

    Well????


    2. Why claim to be "half-Jewish" rather than of "Jewish background", as he would say were one parent (but not he himself) Muslim?

    AyaTrolLiar> "Jewish" is the adjective for "Jew". I don't remember saying "half-Jewish" but if I did it had nothing to do with "ethnicity". As I have said Judaism is a culture as well as a religion.

    This "culture" has its language, traditions, history... pre-dating most ethnic groups. But to this rabid Anti-Semite, Jews are still not an ethnicity.

    AyaTrolLiar> You still don't know what makes an "ethnic group"

    This from the guy who claims that there's no Polish ethnicity:
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4018911

    AyaTrolLiar> [seeks to discuss that issue here rather than in the thread dedicated to it. Typical troll behavior.]


    3A. He conveniently overlooks that the Hebrew word Midrasha is older than Arabic (though both languages have common ancestry).

    AyaTrolLiar> You seem unable to decide if "madrassa education" isn't Islamophobic because Hebrew has the word "midrash", or because "madrassa" is a term (in Arab/Muslim societies) for secular schools too.

    Glad we agree it isn't Islamophobic.

    AyaTrolLiar> The only societies where "madrassas" teach anything are Islamic ones.

    Once again only showing us how little he knows.
    For one of many such examples:
    http://www.dcbeitmidrash.org

    AyaTrolLiar> "Midrash" ≠ "Madrassa".

    But "Beit Midrash" = "Madrassa".


    AyaTrolLiar> along with hateful xenophobic slurs like "Ayat[r]ollah", leave no doubt that you are a Muslim-baiter.

    ROTFL. Others here Christened you the "AyaTrollah" based on your behavior and obvious loyalty to the Iranian regime uber alles.

    AyaTrolLiar> ONE guy

    Yes, but it's appreciated by dozens of RJers.

    3B. Completely misses the point about his obvious "madrassa education", exemplifying his inability to reason (use logic) and constant reversal of the scientific method.

    AyaTrolLiar> ???


    4. Speaking of education, why did he lie that he was a history major, modify the lie to a European history major (when it became clear he knew nothing about mideast history) when in reality he flunked out of a MUSIC history program?

    AyaTrolLiar> Who studied "music history"?

    That's what your Facebook profile said.
    I'm told that info has been removed and not replaced by anything else.

    AyaTrolLiar> Why not just admit to stalking?

    Honey, it was you who blocked-yet-stalked me.
    When you first stalked me on FB, I looked at your profile once.
    It said you were a music history major.

    Maybe that was just another lie, just as you lied about being a "history" and then "European history" major (the latter to cover for epic failures regarding history outside of Europe). Fraudulent attempts to buttress your lies.

    Not unlike lying about being half-Jewish, eh?
    To appear to give you credibility precisely because you have none.


    AyaTrolLiar> ??


    5. Completely obtuse to the hummus point, he pathologically persists: "I made a point of fact" - in a discussion about Hummus!

    AyaTrolLiar> [Falls silent, just way too late]

    Do you finally get it???


    6. His BS about Facebook doesn't even make sense as he references RJ. Absent sock puppets, how could he read - and reference (at times within minutes, with no time for his mythical friends to email him quoting me) what I wrote on FB? (Ponder the depths of the perversion: stalk someone and reply to him without him being able to see... no wonder he was quickly kicked out of groups and blocked by many.)

    AyaTrolLiar> [ignored, but what can he already say???]


    7. Why did he lie about reading a book in Hebrew when he can't even identify the first word on a page after I post a graphic of the page for him?

    Still can't identify that first word???


    8. Lastly, and as usual, rather than discuss a subject in a thread dedicated to it, after himself asking for examples, he avoids the thread where that is on topic and seeks to reopen discussion elsewhere.

    AyaTrolLiar> [proves me right, again.]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 2:16 AM GMT
    1. Why, in a thread discussing the middle east, would someone self identify as "a Brit of Irish background" and only, years later, volunteer that they are allegedly "half-Jewish"?

    AyaTrolLiar> [fail]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 5:22 AM GMT
    No surprise, but the full fledged AyaTrolLiar Anti-Semitic racism comes out:

    AyaTrolLiar pouncer barfedThe distinction is arbitrary (wealthy sectors in all groups exert more cultural influence than the less wealthy).

    So why single out "Wealthy Jews" rather than "Wealthy Americans"?

    AyaTrolLiar pouncer vomitedOver the past 30 years or so, Hollywood has released over 3 times as many films on the Holocaust as on US slavery and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

    Not sure how many movies one can make on the atomic bombing. How many such movies has the Japanese movie industry - presumably not overly influenced or controlled by them Jews - produced?

    As for the comparison to slavery, it is idiotic. The Holocaust took place 70 years ago. For the first 30-40 years after it there was little public discussion about it. So the "past 30 years" were the prime window period. Unlike slavery, which ended 150 years ago. (Don't get it? Compare how many Westerns were made in the past 30 years vs 30-60 years ago.)


    AyaTrolLiar pouncer excretedJews are overrepresented, by a significant factor, in corporate and financial centres of power (practically all the key players in the insider-trading scandal of the 1980s were Jews). In the 1990s, 6 of the 7 "robber baron" oligarchs who controlled half of the Russian economy were Jewish. Of the 50 richest people in the world today, 20% are Jewish (Jews are less than 0.2% of the world population).

    But none of those 6 "robber barons" are religious.
    How is it then that they are "Jewish"?
    You mean by ethnicity rather than religion?
    Otherwise how is it that you can associate them with one another?

    No one denies that Jews (perhaps especially the non-religious ones) are successful.
    Just look at the list of Nobel Laureates.

    The "statistic" that 6 of 9 (not 7) successful Russian businessmen in the Yeltsin era were Jewish tells us... nothing.
    No more so than that all 9 were men.
    Or that all 9 were Russian.

    Only a mentally sick with hate person would even conjure this as if he had proven something (other than exposing himself as the racist he is).


    AyaTrolLiar pouncer pukedIt never raises any eyebrows in "politically correct" circles to say WASPS, or men, wield disproportionate power in the culture, media and politics. Why then should it be considered "anti-Semitic" to flag Jewish influence in these spheres?

    Again revealing his mental sickness.

    It is "correct" to say this about men because they have historically disenfranchised and repressed (and oppressed) women.
    Likewise "WASPS" [sic] have maintained power by withholding it from others.

    There is no analogy to Jews, who themselves were often the victims of those in power, and who managed to succeed despite that.

    Look at the depths of the perversion: why is it that 6 (non-religious yet) Jewish "oligarchs" in Russia are signs of "Jewish influence" rather than the "influence" of 6 individuals?

    Is Justice Sotomayor representative of "Hispanic influence"? Is Scalia a sign of "Italian influence"? Or are they, along with Kennedy, Roberts, Thomas and Alito - 2/3rds of the Court! - a sign of "heavy influence" of Roman Catholics?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 4:25 PM GMT
    No surprise, but the full fledged AyaTrolLiar Anti-Semitic racism finally comes out:

    AyaTrolLiar pouncer barfedThe distinction is arbitrary (wealthy sectors in all groups exert more cultural influence than the less wealthy).

    So why single out "Wealthy Jews" rather than "Wealthy Americans"?

    AyaTrolLiar> because wealthy American Jews wield disproportionately more power than the wealthy of other groups.

    Oh, ok, if you say so.

    Why break down the wealthy by ethnic group rather than group them as representative of an economic class?

    Only a racist would believe that "American Jews wield..." rather than "individual Jews...".