‘Hands up, don’t shoot’ was built on a lie

  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Mar 18, 2015 1:31 AM GMT
    A brave man. Washington post writer and MSNBC frequent commentator states Wilson was justified based on the evidence.



    The unarmed 18-year-old also became a potent symbol of the lack of trust between African Americans and law enforcement. Not just in Ferguson, but in the rest of the country. Lord knows there have been plenty of recent examples. And the militarized response to protesters by local police put an exclamation point on demonstrators’ concerns. But the other DOJ report, the one on the actual shooting of Michael Brown, shows him to be an inappropriate symbol.

    Screen-shot-2011-04-19-at-6.28.35-PM.png


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/editorial/hands-up-dont-shoot-was-built-on-a-lie/2015/03/17/51987fc2-ccbc-11e4-8730-4f473416e759_video.html

    http://wapo.st/19sflTh
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Mar 18, 2015 6:17 PM GMT
    There are lessons to be learned.

    Judgment should be withheld until all the evidence is in.

    Failure to have a prompt and open investigation after a police shooting is likely to result in having people jumping to conclusions which may lead to destructive actions.

    When the police have often used excessive force, many people will assume that they have used effective force even in cases where they have not.

  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    Mar 18, 2015 6:35 PM GMT
    The Ferguson PD systematically taxed its citizens, blacks in particular and disproportionately, as revenue streams. The ad hoc tax against all citizens, and the racial disparity are both reprehensible.

    The Ferguson PD used excessive force, as documented in the DOJ report and on footage during the demonstrations.

    "Hands up, don't shoot" is about EXCESSIVE POLICE FORCE, and does include a racial dynamic. But the overarching issue of excessive force is a civil issue protecting ALL races. The movement is larger than one shooting, one police department, one city, and one state. It's an American problem.

    Hands up, don't shoot!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 18, 2015 6:58 PM GMT
    Svnw688 saidThe Ferguson PD systematically taxed its citizens, blacks in particular and disproportionately, as revenue streams. The ad hoc tax against all citizens, and the racial disparity are both reprehensible.

    The Ferguson PD used excessive force, as documented in the DOJ report and on footage during the demonstrations.

    "Hands up, don't shoot" is about EXCESSIVE POLICE FORCE, and does include a racial dynamic. But the overarching issue of excessive force is a civil issue protecting ALL races. The movement is larger than one shooting, one police department, one city, and one state. It's an American problem.

    Hands up, don't shoot!


    Hmmm ... fines as taxes? Have you been lunching w/ CJ Bobs lately? The ALLEGATIONS in the DOJ report, itself subject to motivational bias, are hardly established facts, and it will take a bit of legal legerdemain to even get them admitted into evidence for consideration of their validity. That same factfinder will also determine the import of the footage, and simply parroting a jingle that itself has no factual basis will add nothing to that or any of the other determinations that will be made in this case.

    And speaking of footage, how to explain the lack of prosecution against MB's stepdad for inciting to riot and commit arson. The evidence on that one is as incontrovertible as the failure to prosecute is shameful.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19133

    Mar 18, 2015 7:07 PM GMT
    FRE0 saidThere are lessons to be learned.


    Yes, the most important one being that when the police order you to do something, DON'T fuck with them. Do as you're told and cooperate and you'll not end up dead. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp for some people
  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    Mar 18, 2015 7:21 PM GMT
    Eugene McAllister v. Ferguson Police Department, et al., No. 4:13-CV-2492-CEJ (E.D.Mo. Mar. 14, 2014). A COMPLIANT backseat passenger brought a 1983 claim after being beaten about the neck and face, and then being bitten all over his body by a K-9. The plaintiff was allowed to go forward with individual capacity suits.

    Did this happen? Is it excessive to beat a backseat passenger about the face and head when he's not resisting, and then let the K-9 dog bite him over and over all about his person, when he is on the floor and not resisting?

    Where's your smart ass, blame the victim, answer for this?

    EDIT: I can pull up, literally, thousands of 1983 cases demonstrating severe and excessive police force. Shall I continue, or do you realize that excessive police force, against complying victims, is a systemic problem throughout the U.S. in general, and Ferguson specifically.

    Read up, educate yourself, stop believing the lies the GOP media tells you. There are huge problems, and government agencies don't settle bogus cases.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Mar 18, 2015 7:22 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    FRE0 saidThere are lessons to be learned.


    Yes, the most important one being that when the police order you to do something, DON'T fuck with them. Do as you're told and cooperate and you'll not end up dead. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp for some people


    Police orders are not always legal or reasonable.
  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    Mar 18, 2015 7:25 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    FRE0 saidThere are lessons to be learned.


    Yes, the most important one being that when the police order you to do something, DON'T fuck with them. Do as you're told and cooperate and you'll not end up dead. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp for some people


    You're familiar with the, literally, thousands of cases where citizens are beaten, bitten and otherwise permanently disfigured when they are ENTIRELY compliant with all police instructions, right? Are you ignorant, willfully obtuse, or just bereft of the relevant facts for this discussion?
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19133

    Mar 18, 2015 7:26 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    FRE0 saidThere are lessons to be learned.


    Yes, the most important one being that when the police order you to do something, DON'T fuck with them. Do as you're told and cooperate and you'll not end up dead. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp for some people


    Police orders are not always legal or reasonable.


    I'm pretty sure that if I were walking down the middle of a street (as Michael Brown was) and a cop told me to get on the sidewalk, and I decided to either A) not to obey, or B) mouth back to cop, or worse C) be aggressive in any way toward said cop, I would be opening myself up to all kinds of trouble. It's just common sense to obey a cop -- Period.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19133

    Mar 18, 2015 7:30 PM GMT
    Svnw688 said
    You're familiar with the, literally, thousands of cases where citizens are beaten, bitten and otherwise permanently disfigured when they are ENTIRELY compliant with all police instructions, right? Are you ignorant, willfully obtuse, or just bereft of the relevant facts for this discussion?


    Yes I am. I am fully aware that instances of police brutality, unfortunately, exist. However, THIS was NOT one of those cases where the victim was "ENTIRELY compliant" as the Justice Department Investigation found.
  • conservativej...

    Posts: 2465

    Mar 18, 2015 9:25 PM GMT
    Svnw688 saidEugene McAllister v. Ferguson Police Department, et al., No. 4:13-CV-2492-CEJ (E.D.Mo. Mar. 14, 2014). A COMPLIANT backseat passenger brought a 1983 claim after being beaten about the neck and face, and then being bitten all over his body by a K-9. The plaintiff was allowed to go forward with individual capacity suits.

    Did this happen? Is it excessive to beat a backseat passenger about the face and head when he's not resisting, and then let the K-9 dog bite him over and over all about his person, when he is on the floor and not resisting?

    Where's your smart ass, blame the victim, answer for this?

    EDIT: I can pull up, literally, thousands of 1983 cases demonstrating severe and excessive police force. Shall I continue, or do you realize that excessive police force, against complying victims, is a systemic problem throughout the U.S. in general, and Ferguson specifically.

    Read up, educate yourself, stop believing the lies the GOP media tells you. There are huge problems, and government agencies don't settle bogus cases.


    The dispensation of that case is very interesting indeed. Mr. Mcallister was arrested as described below:

    ST. LOUIS COUNTY • A teenager from north St. Louis County was charged Friday stemming from a high-speed pursuit with police in January.

    Eugene Mcallister III, 16, of the 10000 block of Bon Oak Drive, was charged as an adult with two counts of attempted assault on a law enforcement officer, two counts of armed crminal action and one count of shooting at a vehicle or person, all felonies. He is being held in lieu of a $100,000 bail.



    Police said Mcallister was with four men in car stolen from St. Ann that rammed two police cars and fled from officers the afternoon of Jan. 26. The fleeing car sped along Interstates 270, 170, 70 and Highway 367, sometimes in the wrong direction. The chase ended on Interstate 70 near O'Fallon Park after police damaged the car's tires. Two guns were found in the car.

    The four other men in the car have already been charged in the incident.

    I wish him good luck in proving his claim in his arrest. A 16 year old Thug Supreme.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 18, 2015 9:44 PM GMT
    Svnw688 saidEugene McAllister v. Ferguson Police Department, et al., No. 4:13-CV-2492-CEJ (E.D.Mo. Mar. 14, 2014). A COMPLIANT backseat passenger brought a 1983 claim after being beaten about the neck and face, and then being bitten all over his body by a K-9. The plaintiff was allowed to go forward with individual capacity suits.

    Did this happen? Is it excessive to beat a backseat passenger about the face and head when he's not resisting, and then let the K-9 dog bite him over and over all about his person, when he is on the floor and not resisting?

    Where's your smart ass, blame the victim, answer for this?

    EDIT: I can pull up, literally, thousands of 1983 cases demonstrating severe and excessive police force. Shall I continue, or do you realize that excessive police force, against complying victims, is a systemic problem throughout the U.S. in general, and Ferguson specifically.

    Read up, educate yourself, stop believing the lies the GOP media tells you. There are huge problems, and government agencies don't settle bogus cases.


    So the compliant's complaint survived a MTD or MSJ? BFD; as another noted, now let him prove his case to the jury. And, you're not the only "civil rights lawyer" out there; I handled such cases on both sides of the issues throughout my career and I think I can say with confidence that I handled more than you have, as any WestLaw search will confirm. Yes, police violence occurs, but hardly to the extent you claim. And, a filed case =/= a won case.

    But we digress: in THIS case, MB not only resisted arrest but threatened the arresting officer w/ the same bodily harm that he'd just inflicted on the shop owner minutes before. That "hands up" line loses hands down.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 18, 2015 10:00 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    FRE0 said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    FRE0 saidThere are lessons to be learned.


    Yes, the most important one being that when the police order you to do something, DON'T fuck with them. Do as you're told and cooperate and you'll not end up dead. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp for some people


    Police orders are not always legal or reasonable.


    I'm pretty sure that if I were walking down the middle of a street (as Michael Brown was) and a cop told me to get on the sidewalk, and I decided to either A) not to obey, or B) mouth back to cop, or worse C) be aggressive in any way toward said cop, I would be opening myself up to all kinds of trouble. It's just common sense to obey a cop -- Period.


    One sure way to get yourself killed is to get in a physical altercation with a police office. Officers carry guns. They will assume you are trying to get at their weapon and use it against them or others. I fully expect an officer to shoot to kill you under such circumstances. No sympathy here for anyone who is killed in the process of attacking a police officer.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 18, 2015 11:33 PM GMT
    Let's put things into perspective:

    A six-year FBI study conducted between 2007 and 2012 found that, on average, local police forces kill 400 people every year in America. Of those, only 96, or 25%, involved blacks killed by white police officers.

    Last year (2013) 105 policemen were killed in the line of duty. This year 112 have been killed to date (Dec 2014). That’s more than the number of blacks killed by white policemen.

    Putting these figures in perspective then, for every black killed by a white police officer in the U.S. every year, there are about 71 blacks killed by other blacks.

    But let's not let facts get in the way of a catchy slogan.

    Which brings to mind the slogan "black lives matter." Seems our black brothers and sisters don't even believe what they preach.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 19, 2015 1:12 AM GMT
    So, the white police officers have to be killing black people for there to be racism?

    The experience of millions of people is not wrong. There is a serious problem with the way black people are treated in this country, and the continual denial of this by white people is ridiculous.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Mar 19, 2015 2:46 AM GMT
    UndercoverMan said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    FRE0 said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    FRE0 saidThere are lessons to be learned.


    Yes, the most important one being that when the police order you to do something, DON'T fuck with them. Do as you're told and cooperate and you'll not end up dead. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp for some people


    Police orders are not always legal or reasonable.


    I'm pretty sure that if I were walking down the middle of a street (as Michael Brown was) and a cop told me to get on the sidewalk, and I decided to either A) not to obey, or B) mouth back to cop, or worse C) be aggressive in any way toward said cop, I would be opening myself up to all kinds of trouble. It's just common sense to obey a cop -- Period.


    One sure way to get yourself killed is to get in a physical altercation with a police office. Officers carry guns. They will assume you are trying to get at their weapon and use it against them or others. I fully expect an officer to shoot to kill you under such circumstances. No sympathy here for anyone who is killed in the process of attacking a police officer.


    Here is a first-hand example of unreasonable and abusive police.

    When I was walking one evening, I noticed that there was a long line of cars in the left turn lane. Upon more closely watching, I saw the problem: The left-turn arrow was operating only intermittently. It would take several light cycles to operate. As I walked on the street onto which the left turning cars were turning, I saw a car that had been stopped by the police. The police were telling the driver that he had made an illegal left turn. It was clear to me that he was forced to turn against the left turn arrow because of a malfunction of the lights. When I attempted to explain that to the police, I was accused of trying to interfere with the police and told that unless I left immediately, I would be arrested. I left.

    Was I unreasonable in attempting to explain the situation to the police?

    Were the police reasonable in accusing me of interfering with police action?

    What should I have done?

    I ride a motorcycle. Because some traffic lights have traffic sensors that are insufficiently sensitive, sometimes I cannot get the left-turn arrow to operate. Sometimes I have no choice but to make an illegal left turn knowing full well that that could result in my being abused by the police.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 19, 2015 5:20 AM GMT
    What should you have done?

    Simple.

    MYOB.

    Also, if a turn signal is malfunctioning, proceed straight ahead to a turn signal that is operating or make a U-turn back to the street you needed to turn down.

    In what way was the driver "forced" to turn? Was it the only place to turn on the street? Was the next available opportunity to turn a thousand miles away?

    Look, I'm not defending the police. I just know that most are power crazy or just plain crazy. That's why avoid them like the plague. I don't engage them unnecessarily. If I am stopped by them it's yes officer, no officer, thank you officer, have a nice day officer. Guess what? I haven't been shot, beat up, verbally abused.
  • Hypertrophile

    Posts: 1021

    Mar 19, 2015 5:55 AM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidLet's put things into perspective:

    A six-year FBI study conducted between 2007 and 2012 found that, on average, local police forces kill 400 people every year in America. Of those, only 96, or 25%, involved blacks killed by white police officers.

    Last year (2013) 105 policemen were killed in the line of duty. This year 112 have been killed to date (Dec 2014). That’s more than the number of blacks killed by white policemen.

    Putting these figures in perspective then, for every black killed by a white police officer in the U.S. every year, there are about 71 blacks killed by other blacks.

    But let's not let facts get in the way of a catchy slogan.

    Which brings to mind the slogan "black lives matter." Seems our black brothers and sisters don't even believe what they preach.


    I'm having trouble confirming these statistics or finding said study,

    According to the Washington Post, the numbers above are the total officer involved killings self reported by only about 750 law enforcement agencies out of over 17,000. If the 750 agencies that killed 400 American citizens were exemplary of the remaining 16,600, that would mean that on average there are somewhere around 9000 Americans killed by cops every year. Maybe this is why we don't have complete data on this.

    The stats also exclude accidental and otherwise unjustified killings. Yes, this does put things into perspective.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/

    "Officials with the Justice Department keep no comprehensive database or record of police shootings, instead allowing the nation’s more than 17,000 law enforcement agencies to self-report officer-involved shootings as part of the FBI’s annual data on “justifiable homicides” by law enforcement.

    "That number – which only includes self-reported information from about 750 law enforcement agencies – hovers around 400 “justifiable homicides” by police officers each year. The DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks “arrest-related deaths.” But the department stopped releasing those numbers after 2009, because, like the FBI data, they were widely regarded as unreliable."
  • Hypertrophile

    Posts: 1021

    Mar 19, 2015 6:09 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    UndercoverMan saidLet's put things into perspective:

    A six-year FBI study conducted between 2007 and 2012 found that, on average, local police forces kill 400 people every year in America. Of those, only 96, or 25%, involved blacks killed by white police officers.

    Last year (2013) 105 policemen were killed in the line of duty. This year 112 have been killed to date (Dec 2014). That’s more than the number of blacks killed by white policemen.

    Putting these figures in perspective then, for every black killed by a white police officer in the U.S. every year, there are about 71 blacks killed by other blacks.

    But let's not let facts get in the way of a catchy slogan.

    Which brings to mind the slogan "black lives matter." Seems our black brothers and sisters don't even believe what they preach.


    Finally some common sense on display.


    Common sense? God, you'll fall for anything.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 19, 2015 10:19 AM GMT
    There is responsibility for our racial issues for all parties involved. With that said, it is very easy to make statements regarding how the police treats minorities when you are the majority. But you have an entirely different perspective when you are the minority and you have to live with the fear of being pulled over and potential of mistreatment. My son graduates in May with his masters degree from Duke University. His undergraduate degree is from Williams College. He is a good kid and has never had an issue with the police or the legal system, however if he is pulled over there could be trouble for him. He is 23 years old and African American. As a parent, that is my worst fear. I am afraid someone will pull him over and assume the worst.

    The police departments are overworked and underpaid. With this job description they do not get the top of the class applying for jobs. Some of the individuals on the police force are on a power trip that is rooted in poor self esteem. The African American community is riddled with poverty, high crime rate and drug abuse. Many of our issues are self inflicted wounds. This is a recipe for disaster.

    This is a big problem that will take action from the African American community and the various police departments, It will take more than awareness to solve these issues. There will have to be major changes for African America community and law enforcement community. We will also need time to rebuild trust and heal.



  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    Mar 19, 2015 4:24 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidLet's put things into perspective:

    A six-year FBI study conducted between 2007 and 2012 found that, on average, local police forces kill 400 people every year in America. Of those, only 96, or 25%, involved blacks killed by white police officers.

    Last year (2013) 105 policemen were killed in the line of duty. This year 112 have been killed to date (Dec 2014). That’s more than the number of blacks killed by white policemen.

    Putting these figures in perspective then, for every black killed by a white police officer in the U.S. every year, there are about 71 blacks killed by other blacks.

    But let's not let facts get in the way of a catchy slogan.

    Which brings to mind the slogan "black lives matter." Seems our black brothers and sisters don't even believe what they preach.


    You realize that this data doesn't exist, right? Even the conservative WaPo reported this a few months ago. Jon Stewart did an entire sketch/segment on this lack of data.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Mar 19, 2015 7:27 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidWhat should you have done?

    Simple.

    MYOB.

    Also, if a turn signal is malfunctioning, proceed straight ahead to a turn signal that is operating or make a U-turn back to the street you needed to turn down.

    In what way was the driver "forced" to turn? Was it the only place to turn on the street? Was the next available opportunity to turn a thousand miles away?

    Look, I'm not defending the police. I just know that most are power crazy or just plain crazy. That's why avoid them like the plague. I don't engage them unnecessarily. If I am stopped by them it's yes officer, no officer, thank you officer, have a nice day officer. Guess what? I haven't been shot, beat up, verbally abused.


    Your analytical skills need sharpening.

    It is everyone's business if people are being unfairly charged with a violation. If fewer people in the South had had a MYOB attitude, surely fewer blacks would have been lynched.

    If a turn signal is malfunctioning and staying on red, contrary to what you implied, going straight ahead to a signal that is operating would require going through a red light first. Moreover, if one is in the left turn lane and the green arrow is not operating, it would, in at least some cases, be illegal or impossible to shift one lane to the right to go straight instead.

    In the case at hand, drivers were already in the left turn only lane before they realized that the left turn arrow was malfunctioning. After it did not operate for a few light cycles, the only reasonable thing for them to do was to make a left turn without the arrow when they could safely do so. There was no legal alternative since at that point, it would also have been illegal to change lanes. If the left turn arrow had been malfunctioning for a few days or more, then perhaps drivers could have avoided the problem by taking another route, but that is a different matter.

    In some states, it is explicitly legal to run a red light or make a left turn without the left turn arrow if the signal is obviously malfunctioning.

    I also avoid the police to the extent possible and, in the last 25+ years, have had only one ticket for a moving violation.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Mar 19, 2015 7:29 PM GMT
    Physiqueflex said
    UndercoverMan saidLet's put things into perspective:

    A six-year FBI study conducted between 2007 and 2012 found that, on average, local police forces kill 400 people every year in America. Of those, only 96, or 25%, involved blacks killed by white police officers.

    Last year (2013) 105 policemen were killed in the line of duty. This year 112 have been killed to date (Dec 2014). That’s more than the number of blacks killed by white policemen.

    Putting these figures in perspective then, for every black killed by a white police officer in the U.S. every year, there are about 71 blacks killed by other blacks.

    But let's not let facts get in the way of a catchy slogan.

    Which brings to mind the slogan "black lives matter." Seems our black brothers and sisters don't even believe what they preach.


    I'm having trouble confirming these statistics or finding said study,

    According to the Washington Post, the numbers above are the total officer involved killings self reported by only about 750 law enforcement agencies out of over 17,000. If the 750 agencies that killed 400 American citizens were exemplary of the remaining 16,600, that would mean that on average there are somewhere around 9000 Americans killed by cops every year. Maybe this is why we don't have complete data on this.

    The stats also exclude accidental and otherwise unjustified killings. Yes, this does put things into perspective.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/

    "Officials with the Justice Department keep no comprehensive database or record of police shootings, instead allowing the nation’s more than 17,000 law enforcement agencies to self-report officer-involved shootings as part of the FBI’s annual data on “justifiable homicides” by law enforcement.

    "That number – which only includes self-reported information from about 750 law enforcement agencies – hovers around 400 “justifiable homicides” by police officers each year. The DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks “arrest-related deaths.” But the department stopped releasing those numbers after 2009, because, like the FBI data, they were widely regarded as unreliable."


    Probably most of us could agree that better statistics should be kept and made available. This matter is far too important to make decisions based on guesses.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Mar 19, 2015 7:33 PM GMT
    Niceguy1964 saidThere is responsibility for our racial issues for all parties involved. With that said, it is very easy to make statements regarding how the police treats minorities when you are the majority. But you have an entirely different perspective when you are the minority and you have to live with the fear of being pulled over and potential of mistreatment. My son graduates in May with his masters degree from Duke University. His undergraduate degree is from Williams College. He is a good kid and has never had an issue with the police or the legal system, however if he is pulled over there could be trouble for him. He is 23 years old and African American. As a parent, that is my worst fear. I am afraid someone will pull him over and assume the worst.

    The police departments are overworked and underpaid. With this job description they do not get the top of the class applying for jobs. Some of the individuals on the police force are on a power trip that is rooted in poor self esteem. The African American community is riddled with poverty, high crime rate and drug abuse. Many of our issues are self inflicted wounds. This is a recipe for disaster.

    This is a big problem that will take action from the African American community and the various police departments, It will take more than awareness to solve these issues. There will have to be major changes for African America community and law enforcement community. We will also need time to rebuild trust and heal.





    Many of us who are in the majority do have a fairly good understanding of the problems and want them to be fixed so that everyone will be treated fairly. It helps to have black friends with whom there is good communication.