Israeli-Palestinian conflict

  • wesv

    Posts: 907

    Mar 24, 2015 5:01 AM GMT
    I don't know why I'm so passionate about this conflict. I actually have family in Israel, but I've never even met them. Only my father has contact with them.

    I've seen arguments of all sorts when it comes to this topic. I'm curious and would like to know where your stance is. Are there any solutions you can come up with in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Would you ever recognize a Palestinian state? Etc.

    Please share your opinions.
  • venue35

    Posts: 4644

    Mar 24, 2015 1:47 PM GMT
    The whole situation is a mess and I don't know if there will ever be a solution.
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    Mar 24, 2015 2:46 PM GMT
    wesv saidI don't know why I'm so passionate about this conflict.

    A lot of people don't know why they're so passionate about this conflict (relative to other conflicts).
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    Mar 24, 2015 2:56 PM GMT
    One more thread ought to mend it.
  • ASHDOD

    Posts: 1057

    Mar 24, 2015 6:18 PM GMT
    i''m sn israely born and reised [well and 6 years in argentina]
    there is no solution to this conflict.
  • sleaver

    Posts: 39

    Mar 24, 2015 6:37 PM GMT
    The fact of the matter Arab Muslim/Christians/Jews were living peacefully there for many many years when it was Palestine ( Pre 1948 ).

    I just hope it goes back to being a peaceful country where all religious groups live amongst themselves civilly.

    Call me a dreamer... but i'm sure i'm not the only one.

    A
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Mar 24, 2015 8:39 PM GMT
    It`s very difficult to see a solution there given all that`s happened since 1948.
    Ideally, it would have been a one state solution in 1948: a democratic, secular state for all those living there, regardless of religion/ethnicity/ history, etc. called Palestine.
    But in practice it`ll be two states now, but even that is highly optimistic.
  • wesv

    Posts: 907

    Mar 24, 2015 9:55 PM GMT
    Lincsbear saidIt`s very difficult to see a solution there given all that`s happened since 1948.
    Ideally, it would have been a one state solution in 1948: a democratic, secular state for all those living there, regardless of religion/ethnicity/ history, etc. called Palestine.
    But in practice it`ll be two states now, but even that is highly optimistic.


    The State of Israel (Madinat Yisrael) is indeed a secular democratic state. Although it's designated as a "Jewish" state, it refers to Jews in general--ethnic or practicing. People of Jewish ancestry are entitled to Israeli citizenship if they fit into the Law of Return.
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    Mar 25, 2015 12:30 AM GMT
    The only solution is a two state solution though I don't see that happening. With multiple civil wars in the Middle East and Hamas in control of Gaza, it's too risky.

    A one state is not possible. There's too much hate and distrust on both sides. Look at Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, and Iraq and see how difficult it is for people of different religions people to live in peace.

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    Mar 25, 2015 1:14 AM GMT
    I like Jews and strongly support their right to live in peace in Israel.As a Catholic I do not share what I consider the crackpot views of many evangelical Christians toward this issue.Somewhere they adopted the idea that the Jews must control the Holy Land for Christ to return in glory.The combined influence of wealthy Jews in our politics and the strength of the Evangelical Christians in our country has turned Israel into our 51st state.Finally a younger generation,more diverse and more secular is waking up to this.I believe the International community should pressure Israel to return to its 1967 borders and pressure the Arab countries to give Abbas the support he needs to sign an agreement.This conflict is the root cause of much of the world's problems.Will establishing a State of Palestine solve this problem completely..no.But it is over 45 years overdue and it is time to put an end to this shit.Unless the axis of Right Wing Jews and crazy Pat Robertson Christians can be overcome.This situation will never change.So I agree with Obama's recent comment.We need to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.
  • wesv

    Posts: 907

    Mar 25, 2015 4:51 AM GMT
    ALRboy saidThe only solution is a two state solution though I don't see that happening. With multiple civil wars in the Middle East and Hamas in control of Gaza, it's too risky.

    A one state is not possible. There's too much hate and distrust on both sides. Look at Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, and Iraq and see how difficult it is for people of different religions people to live in peace.



    I agree that the two state solution looks nearly impossible. Since Israel is developing in the West Bank and there are already close to 800,000 Israeli citizens living there.
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    Mar 25, 2015 5:14 AM GMT
    WickedRyan saidI like Jews and strongly support their right to live in peace in Israel.As a Catholic I do not share what I consider the crackpot views of many evangelical Christians toward this issue.Somewhere they adopted the idea that the Jews must control the Holy Land for Christ to return in glory.The combined influence of wealthy Jews in our politics and the strength of the Evangelical Christians in our country has turned Israel into our 51st state.Finally a younger generation,more diverse and more secular is waking up to this.I believe the International community should pressure Israel to return to its 1967 borders and pressure the Arab countries to give Abbas the support he needs to sign an agreement.This conflict is the root cause of much of the world's problems.Will establishing a State of Palestine solve this problem completely..no.But it is over 45 years overdue and it is time to put an end to this shit.Unless the axis of Right Wing Jews and crazy Pat Robertson Christians can be overcome.This situation will never change.So I agree with Obama's recent comment.We need to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.

    Return to its 1967 borders? Sure, if the Jews want to commit cultural and demographic suicide.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 25, 2015 11:08 AM GMT
    WickedRyan saidI like Jews...
    The combined influence of wealthy Jews in our politics

    Oh, dear. Jews (not Zionists) control Washington DC (and the world, too, right?)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 25, 2015 11:13 AM GMT
    sleaver saidThe fact of the matter Arab Muslim/Christians/Jews were living peacefully there for many many years when it was Palestine ( Pre 1948 ).

    Except that this was Mandate Palestine (not Arab Palestine), entrusted to re-establish the Jewish state (on the 22% of the territory west of the Jordan river).

    Neither was it "peaceful", with many instances of Arab anti-Jewish violence.
    The 1921 Haycraft Commission of Inquiry wrote:

    || The racial strife was begun by the Arabs, and rapidly developed into a conflict of great violence between Arabs and Jews, in which the Arab majority, who were generally the aggressors, inflicted most of the casualties.

    || When the disturbance had once begun an already acute anti-Jewish feeling extended it into an anti-Jewish riot. A large part of the Moslem and Christian communities condoned it, although they did not encourage violence. While certain of the educated Arabs appear to have incited the mob

    || The raids on five Jewish agricultural colonies arose from the excitement produced in the minds of the Arabs by reports of Arabs being killed by Jews in Jaffa. In two cases unfounded stories of provocation were believed and acted upon without any effort being made to verify them. In these raids there were few Jewish and many Arab casualties, chiefly on account of the intervention of the military.


    sleaver saidI just hope it goes back to being a peaceful country where all religious groups live amongst themselves civilly.

    In Israel you'll find members of all religious and ethnic groups living not just civilly but peacefully. Unfortunately the same cannot be said about its neighbors, including the PA-controlled areas of Trans/Jordan's former so-called "West Bank" and the Hamas-controlled Gaza strip.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 25, 2015 11:15 AM GMT
    wesv said
    ALRboy saidThe only solution is a two state solution though I don't see that happening. With multiple civil wars in the Middle East and Hamas in control of Gaza, it's too risky.

    A one state is not possible. There's too much hate and distrust on both sides. Look at Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, and Iraq and see how difficult it is for people of different religions people to live in peace.

    I agree that the two state solution looks nearly impossible. Since Israel is developing in the West Bank and there are already close to 800,000 Israeli citizens living there.

    Except that all Israeli development is in Area C, which is where only 3-4% of the Arab population resides.

    The vast majority of Israeli development is on less than 5% of the disputed territories, which could be swapped in a peace agreement.

    The two-state solution: Revisiting the Clinton Compromise Parameters and the Olmert Plan.
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2670812
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 25, 2015 8:50 PM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar pouncer vomitedWealthy Jews don't exert heavy influence on American culture and politics?

    No more so than wealthy Americans who aren't Jewish.
    Singling out "wealthy Jews" is not only an appeal to old Anti-Semitic stereotypes, but clearly racist.

    Which is why while most people reading that likely winced, you not only jumped with joy but seek to defend it.

    I'm not going to bother with the rest since I doubt anyone even read it.
    (If anyone did and thinks something he said has merit, please ask and I'll respond.)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 2:19 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar pouncer vomitedWealthy Jews don't exert heavy influence on American culture and politics?

    No more so than wealthy Americans who aren't Jewish.
    Singling out "wealthy Jews" is not only an appeal to old Anti-Semitic stereotypes, but clearly racist.

    Which is why while most people reading that likely winced, you not only jumped with joy but seek to defend it.

    AyaTrolLiar> the relevant comparison wouldn't be between American Jews and "Americans who aren't Jewish", but between American Jews and other groups respectively.

    Are you saying that American Jews, not just "Wealthy Jews", have "heavy influence", too much influence, as compared to "other groups"?
  • wesv

    Posts: 907

    Mar 26, 2015 5:13 AM GMT
    mwolverine said
    wesv said
    ALRboy saidThe only solution is a two state solution though I don't see that happening. With multiple civil wars in the Middle East and Hamas in control of Gaza, it's too risky.

    A one state is not possible. There's too much hate and distrust on both sides. Look at Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, and Iraq and see how difficult it is for people of different religions people to live in peace.

    I agree that the two state solution looks nearly impossible. Since Israel is developing in the West Bank and there are already close to 800,000 Israeli citizens living there.

    Except that all Israeli development is in Area C, which is where only 3-4% of the Arab population resides.

    The vast majority of Israeli development is on less than 5% of the disputed territories, which could be swapped in a peace agreement.

    The two-state solution: Revisiting the Clinton Compromise Parameters and the Olmert Plan.
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2670812


    That's an interesting map, but I've seen maps of the West Bank showing how complex this issue really is. The ones I've seen depict how Palestinian and Israeli settlements are not even connected. They're all dotted here and there in the West Bank.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 5:15 AM GMT
    No surprise, but the full fledged AyaTrolLiar Anti-Semitic racism comes out:

    AyaTrolLiar pouncer barfedThe distinction is arbitrary (wealthy sectors in all groups exert more cultural influence than the less wealthy).

    So why single out "Wealthy Jews" rather than "Wealthy Americans"?

    AyaTrolLiar pouncer vomitedOver the past 30 years or so, Hollywood has released over 3 times as many films on the Holocaust as on US slavery and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

    Not sure how many movies one can make on the atomic bombing. How many such movies has the Japanese movie industry - presumably not overly influenced or controlled by them Jews - produced?

    As for the comparison to slavery, it is idiotic. The Holocaust took place 70 years ago. For the first 30-40 years after it there was little public discussion about it. So the "past 30 years" were the prime window period. Unlike slavery, which ended 150 years ago. (Don't get it? Compare how many Westerns were made in the past 30 years vs 30-60 years ago.)


    AyaTrolLiar pouncer excretedJews are overrepresented, by a significant factor, in corporate and financial centres of power (practically all the key players in the insider-trading scandal of the 1980s were Jews). In the 1990s, 6 of the 7 "robber baron" oligarchs who controlled half of the Russian economy were Jewish. Of the 50 richest people in the world today, 20% are Jewish (Jews are less than 0.2% of the world population).

    But none of those 6 "robber barons" are religious.
    How is it then that they are "Jewish"?
    You mean by ethnicity rather than religion?
    Otherwise how is it that you can associate them with one another?

    No one denies that Jews (perhaps especially the non-religious ones) are successful.
    Just look at the list of Nobel Laureates.

    The "statistic" that 6 of 9 (not 7) successful Russian businessmen in the Yeltsin era were Jewish tells us... nothing.
    No more so than that all 9 were men.
    Or that all 9 were Russian.

    Only a mentally sick with hate person would even conjure this as if he had proven something (other than exposing himself as the racist he is).


    AyaTrolLiar pouncer pukedIt never raises any eyebrows in "politically correct" circles to say WASPS, or men, wield disproportionate power in the culture, media and politics. Why then should it be considered "anti-Semitic" to flag Jewish influence in these spheres?

    Again revealing his mental sickness.

    It is "correct" to say this about men because they have historically disenfranchised and repressed (and oppressed) women.
    Likewise "WASPS" [sic] have maintained power by withholding it from others.

    There is no analogy to Jews, who themselves were often the victims of those in power, and who managed to succeed despite that.

    Look at the depths of the perversion: why is it that 6 (non-religious yet) Jewish "oligarchs" in Russia are signs of "Jewish influence" rather than the "influence" of 6 individuals?

    Is Justice Sotomayor representative of "Hispanic influence"? Is Scalia a sign of "Italian influence"? Or are they, along with Kennedy, Roberts, Thomas and Alito - 2/3rds of the Court! - a sign of "heavy influence" of Roman Catholics?
  • wesv

    Posts: 907

    Mar 26, 2015 5:58 AM GMT
    Ouch guys, what's up with all the anti-Semitism?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 4:24 PM GMT
    No surprise, but the full fledged AyaTrolLiar Anti-Semitic racism comes out:

    AyaTrolLiar pouncer barfedThe distinction is arbitrary (wealthy sectors in all groups exert more cultural influence than the less wealthy).

    So why single out "Wealthy Jews" rather than "Wealthy Americans"?

    AyaTrolLiar> because wealthy American Jews wield disproportionately more power than the wealthy of other groups.

    Oh, ok, if you say so.

    Why break down the wealthy by ethnic group rather than group them as representative of an economic class?

    Only a racist would believe that "American Jews wield..." rather than "individual Jews...".
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 4:29 PM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar pouncer vomitedOver the past 30 years or so, Hollywood has released over 3 times as many films on the Holocaust as on US slavery and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

    How many such movies has the Japanese movie industry - presumably not overly influenced or controlled by them Jews - produced?

    AyaTrolLiar> the movie industry there, at least, has no interest in repeatedly cashing in on a trauma that still affects people's lives.

    Unlike the money-grubbing Jewish movie industry here, which loves "cashing in on a trauma that still affects people's lives"?


    As for the comparison to slavery, it is idiotic. The Holocaust took place 70 years ago. For the first 30-40 years after it there was little public discussion about it. So the "past 30 years" were the prime window period.

    AyaTrolLiar> So it's largely irrelevant, right?

    Damn, you are one f*cked up idiot.

    AyaTrolLiar> A strange time to belatedly pick up the baton wouldn't you say?

    No, I wouldn't. Only an insane hateful idiot would.


    Unlike slavery, which ended 150 years ago. (Don't get it? Compare how many Westerns were made in the past 30 years vs 30-60 years ago.)

    AyaTrolLiar> Westerns are a genre, while slavery is a defining element of US history - on which many US films are made.

    The point, obvious to those whose mind hasn't been dulled and addled by hate, is that there is a time and place for everything. There aren't many movies made about the Civil War anymore, either.

    AyaTrolLiar> The Holocaust isn't even US history.

    It is part of human history. But you wouldn't understand that.
    As Aristoshark famously stated, you're an "all around sh*tty excuse for a human being".

    AyaTrolLiar> 7 major museums dot the landscape

    There are over 150 African American museums across that American landscape.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_museums_focused_on_African_Americans

    Yet our resident racist isn't complaining that there are too few African American museums, just too many Jewish/Holocaust museums. (Just as he infamously said that "one Jewish state is one too many").
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 4:31 PM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar pouncer excretedJews are overrepresented, by a significant factor, in corporate and financial centres of power (practically all the key players in the insider-trading scandal of the 1980s were Jews). In the 1990s, 6 of the 7 "robber baron" oligarchs who controlled half of the Russian economy were Jewish. Of the 50 richest people in the world today, 20% are Jewish (Jews are less than 0.2% of the world population).

    None of those 6 "robber barons" are religious.
    How is it then that they are "Jewish"?
    You mean by ethnicity rather than religion?
    Otherwise how is it that you can associate them with one another?


    AyaTrolLiar> By self-identity.

    ROTFL. Yes, that is an ethnic self-identity.

    No one denies that Jews (perhaps especially the non-religious ones) are successful.
    Just look at the list of Nobel Laureates.


    AyaTrolLiar> that's precisely the problem.

    Only for racists like you.

    AyaTrolLiar> can't discreditable group traits account for their identical overrepresentation among the world's richest people?

    What "group" is that if not an ethnic group?
    And what "discreditable group traits" do Jews have, in your racist opinion?

    AyaTrolLiar> the disproportionate success of Jews in business might also be construed as proof that Jews include a disproportionate share of ruthless shysters. However invidious the stereotype, this doesn't make the claim a priori false.

    LOL. Thus speaketh the Anti-Semite.


    The "statistic" that 6 of 9 (not 7) successful Russian businessmen in the Yeltsin era were Jewish tells us... nothing.
    No more so than that all 9 were men.
    Or that all 9 were Russian.


    AyaTrolLiar> What ought to be far from expected, according to your faux-innocent posturing, is an overwhelming representation of a tiny minority among the robber barons who (quite predictably) were men and (quite predictably) were Russian.

    So in your sick mind, this is "proof" that Jews are "ruthless shysters" or part of some global conspiracy?

    As already noted: Only a mentally sick with hate person would even conjure this as if he had proven something (other than exposing himself as the racist he is).
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 4:33 PM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar pouncer pukedIt never raises any eyebrows in "politically correct" circles to say WASPS, or men, wield disproportionate power in the culture, media and politics. Why then should it be considered "anti-Semitic" to flag Jewish influence in these spheres?

    Again revealing his mental sickness.

    It is "correct" to say this about men because they have historically disenfranchised and repressed (and oppressed) women.
    Likewise "WASPS" [sic] have maintained power by withholding it from others.

    There is no analogy to Jews, who themselves were often the victims of those in power, and who managed to succeed despite that.


    AyaTrolLiar> Jews haven't victimized and withheld power from others?

    In Russia? In America?
    You're not just a racist and an idiot, you're a moron.

    AyaTrolLiar> What about the historic role of Jews as tax collectors and moneylenders in Eastern Europe?

    ROTFL. His madness gets even more extreme:

    AyaTrolLiar> What about the historic role of European Jews in the crimes of European imperialism? In the 19th Century, the head of the world's largest and most ruthless empire was a Jew.

    Oh dear. One Jew was allegedly all that. Jews, as a "group" (not just a religious "group" but anyone who "self-identifies" as such even though it couldn't possibly be an ethnicity) must be "ruthless" and evil.

    How can a group have "traits"?
    I guess anyone who randomly "self-identifies" as Jewish becomes a "ruthless shylock".


    Look at the depths of the perversion: why is it that 6 (non-religious yet) Jewish "oligarchs" in Russia are signs of "Jewish influence" rather than the "influence" of 6 individuals?

    AyaTrolLiar> ?


    Is Justice Sotomayor representative of "Hispanic influence"?

    AyaTrolLiar> If she is, she underrepresents it.

    Why "if"? Every successful Jew anywhere anytime is, in your sick mind, representative of "Jewish influence" (or "ruthless shyster[ism]"). Why then is it an "if" in the case of a non-Jewish group?


    Is Scalia a sign of "Italian influence"? Or are they, along with Kennedy, Roberts, Thomas and Alito - 2/3rds of the Court! - a sign of "heavy influence" of Roman Catholics?

    AyaTrolLiar> Catholics are 25% of the population and comprise two-thirds of the court

    Thanks for confirming that Catholics have overdue influence in America. It's really horrible, isn't it?
    Please give us a laundry list of Catholic "crimes" to match your racist anti-Jewish core-dump above.


    AyaTrolLiar> Catholics are... overrepresented on the Supreme Court.

    To what awful group traits do you attribute this?
    Are Catholics, like Jews, "ruthless shylocks"?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Mar 26, 2015 4:38 PM GMT
    But you already cross-posted that in a thread where your noxious and distasteful Anti-Semitism is on topic.

    Why does virulent Anti-Semitism play such a large role in MidEast discussions on RJ?
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4015076

    Thanks for also exposing yourself here, but let's get back to this topic.