The danger straight acting gay men pose to the LGBT community

  • Inque

    Posts: 517

    Mar 25, 2015 7:06 PM GMT
    So I got into a debate last night with someone who said that it's not racist or a symptom of internalized homophobia if there are white gay men who only want to date/fuck/etc white masculine 'straight acting' gay men. One person even said I was being hypocritical and offensive by 'attacking' straight acting white gay men for being themselves and wanting men who were similar. I got me to thinking and then I came to a realization about what this argument was really about: gentrification and homogenization.

    During the reconstruction period black scholars theorized that if blacks could show whites that they were they equals by excelling in the same areas whites did they could gain respect and approval from the white community. Remember this word approval because it becomes very important later on. Now there were other blacks who felt as if black people and black culture did not have to strive to be similar to whites in order to gain equality. In fact they preached that blacks should be allowed to maintain their own distinct flavor and culture but still be granted equality not because of their parallels with whites but because they deserved equality point blank period.

    A lot of people credit the rapid changing pace of LGBT rights, in specifically gay marriage, to straight Americans realizing that those in our community were 'just like them' in that we were their doctors, their teachers, their neighbors, their friends and their family members. I think that has worked for marriage in the way it has because there's not a solid non-religious argument against it that doesn't make one seem inhumane. But what a lot of those in the opposition are doing is creating laws that not only target LGBTQ individuals but outright ban protections for them under the guise that they don't need them and that said peoples already are protected enough and anything else would be special rights. I think this where the faulty in the 'just like you' narrative lies. It's no mystery that in this country the majority has a very hard time understanding the struggles of the minority. By trying to equate the two segments what we have done is erased the challenges and struggles that the minority community faces and I'm not just speaking in terms of the LGBTQ community but for ethnic and religious communities as well. If you say to the average person 'this person is just like you despite being XYZ' then that person might respond 'then why do they need XYZ if they're not different from me?' We all know that although we are all made equal there are factors in society that have formed us in different ways and affect our respective communities differently. But you're going to have a hard time explaining to some people especially those who are of the 'no special protections' camp and there's more of them than you think.

    So let's go back to this word 'approval'. At the core of this whole straight acting and whitewashing of the gay community is the seeking of approval. Not tolerance. Not even acceptance. Both are words I don't particularly like because it makes me feel like I'm begging the mainstream to give validity to me. I do not. I am me and you're gonna treat me the same because it's the fucking law despite whatever you think. But there are others who crave approval and a lot, though not all, but a sizable amount of them are white gay men many of whom identify as straight acting/masculine/whatever the fuck you wanna call it. This is just my theory but I think these are the men who when they realized they were gay or bisexual they felt as if there was something taken from them in that they were no longer 'normal' and so in a way the LGBT movement for them is less about legal protections and changing societal attitudes for the safety of LGBT people but more so that they can feel normal and 'approved' of. These are the men who reject anything that deviates from what they have been systematically been taught is 'normal': feminine, ethnic, alternative etc. These are the men who's personality has been formed by a shakey and antiquated notion of masculinity. These are the men who have hard times forming relationships with other men because they are too busy trying to model themselves on some idea of manhood and what a 'guy' should be that they can't just 'be'. These are the men who are so desperately insecure with their sexuality they obsess with going under the radar. These are the men who seek others feminine ways as a threat because it may cause others to associate them with what these straight acting men consider 'freaks'. These are the men who constantly wonder why they are single but then fail to realize that they narrow down their selection of men to such an extreme that they rarely even live up to their own standards. These are the men who in the back of their minds question why they are gay/bisexual when they feel as they could so easily be 'normal' or straight. These are the men who are responsible for the current break down of right for LGBT people.

    That's unfair you say but look at it this way: These men want to normalize, gentrify and whitewash the LGBT community in a way that the face of it is masculine, middle class, straight acting fit white men. The boys next door. The guys you can have a drink with. The guys who you would never know are gay. Now if I'm someone who is in-between being an ally and a homophobe I'd probably have no issue with these two getting hitched. But why do they need workplace protections? Why do they need anti-discrimination laws? Why do they need hate crime protections? If they're just like me and I don't need that then why do they? They tell me over and over and over again that there's nothing different between being gay and straight. They tell me all the time that gay is this image of white male masculinity. Well if they're all like this why do they need what they're asking for? Why do they have to flaunt it? Can't they just be like these guys and go under the radar? Why do they have to wear dresses? Why do they have to be flamboyant? Why do they have to talk like that? Why do they wear their hair like that? Why do they have to walk like that? If they just tried to be normal and straight acting then there wouldn't have to be extra laws that will just end up costing extra money in the first place.

    You may say I'm being extreme but that's where this kind of thing leads because it's happened to minority group after minority group after minority group. Don't believe me? Look up The Good Black Man/Good Negro stereotype. You cannot run from stereotypes. You should not live your life in a way that eschews what people will associate with what group you belong to. You can only be your authentic self and you should allow others to do the same. I'm not saying you HAVE to date someone of a different race or someone less or even more masculine that you. But what I'm saying is that if you keeping doing what you always did you will get what you always get. Stop worrying about what it is and what it isn't and why can't you just be? Stop letting the preoccupations of your gender identity and what it means to other people inhibit you from meaning anything to yourself or anything at all.

    Be you but don't let you be someone that stops others from being them.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 25, 2015 7:12 PM GMT
    Unbelievably TL; Definitely DR
  • Inque

    Posts: 517

    Mar 25, 2015 7:15 PM GMT
    Sharkspeare saidUnbelievably TL; Definitely DR


    Hey it's a topic that isn't about my asshole so be happy!
  • Unnamed6

    Posts: 1145

    Mar 25, 2015 8:02 PM GMT
    Inque said
    Sharkspeare saidUnbelievably TL; Definitely DR


    Hey it's a topic that isn't about my asshole so be happy!


    Being satisfied with oneself without external input or affirmation (even from things like money) is something very hard to come by. Do you think this would be a possibility for you?
  • collegedude12

    Posts: 75

    Mar 25, 2015 8:23 PM GMT
    I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to date the people you're attracted to. But if a dude has to say he's straight acting, isn't he admitting he's acting? I don't really get the term though since straight acting would be acting like you like the opposite sex right? If dudes are naturally masculine, great. If not, that's great too. I kinda feel like I'm one of those white dudes but I'm not threatened by feminine guys. Everyone should be able to be who they are. One of my buddies and I are both pretty masculine I guess but we don't sit around thinking about everything we do to try to impress someone who might be passing by or whatever. That shit would be mad stressful. People worry too much about what other people think. For real life is too short to spend all your time calculating every move so that other guys think you're "masculine"
  • Inque

    Posts: 517

    Mar 25, 2015 10:03 PM GMT
    collegedude12 saidI don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to date the people you're attracted to. But if a dude has to say he's straight acting, isn't he admitting he's acting? I don't really get the term though since straight acting would be acting like you like the opposite sex right? If dudes are naturally masculine, great. If not, that's great too. I kinda feel like I'm one of those white dudes but I'm not threatened by feminine guys. Everyone should be able to be who they are. One of my buddies and I are both pretty masculine I guess but we don't sit around thinking about everything we do to try to impress someone who might be passing by or whatever. That shit would be mad stressful. People worry too much about what other people think. For real life is too short to spend all your time calculating every move so that other guys think you're "masculine"


    by one of those white dudes what do you mean?
  • collegedude12

    Posts: 75

    Mar 26, 2015 8:12 AM GMT
    Inque said
    collegedude12 saidI don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to date the people you're attracted to. But if a dude has to say he's straight acting, isn't he admitting he's acting? I don't really get the term though since straight acting would be acting like you like the opposite sex right? If dudes are naturally masculine, great. If not, that's great too. I kinda feel like I'm one of those white dudes but I'm not threatened by feminine guys. Everyone should be able to be who they are. One of my buddies and I are both pretty masculine I guess but we don't sit around thinking about everything we do to try to impress someone who might be passing by or whatever. That shit would be mad stressful. People worry too much about what other people think. For real life is too short to spend all your time calculating every move so that other guys think you're "masculine"


    by one of those white dudes what do you mean?


    I just meant sometimes I do wonder why I'm gay when most people assume I'm straight. I don't know that many gay guys and of course the ones I see often are the ones that are more flamboyant. But maybe that's the point; that most people assume the only gay dudes out there are flamboyant or feminine which we know isn't true. I don't pretend to be anything I'm not and I'd imagine there are other gay dudes who go about their lives the way they are and just have a less feminine personality or whatever. The issue is just when people try to be something they're not just to impress someone. I agree with you that everyone should be able to be who they are but I don't think if a gay guy is more masculine or wants to be around guys who are, that there's anything wrong with that. They just don't need to bash all the feminine dudes who are living their lives the way they want to
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    Mar 26, 2015 9:23 AM GMT
    collegedude12 said
    I just meant sometimes I do wonder why I'm gay when most people assume I'm straight. I don't know that many gay guys and of course the ones I see often are the ones that are more flamboyant. But maybe that's the point; that most people assume the only gay dudes out there are flamboyant or feminine which we know isn't true. I don't pretend to be anything I'm not and I'd imagine there are other gay dudes who go about their lives the way they are and just have a less feminine personality or whatever. The issue is just when people try to be something they're not just to impress someone. I agree with you that everyone should be able to be who they are but I don't think if a gay guy is more masculine or wants to be around guys who are, that there's anything wrong with that. They just don't need to bash all the feminine dudes who are living their lives the way they want to


    I agree with this.
    There isn't anything wrong with gay guys who are naturally masculine in nature and just because they fit into society on the outset easier than the more effeminate gay guys, it doesn't make them superior.
    Of course not all naturally masculine gay men think that way but there are some out there who do, which is annoying considering at the front of the fight for gay men's rights are more often than not the effeminate gay men fighting for ALL gay men's rights, even for the masculine and masculine acting gay men.

    I just don't understand how some masculine gay men can hate effeminate gay men for being different when it's the exact same thing homophobic people would do to them just for being gay. The fact they don't see their own hypocrisy shits me.

    Anyway I agree, if you are naturally masculine or naturally feminine then that should just be respected, just as much as we want straight homophobic people to respect the fact that there are some men who like other men.
  • SilverRRCloud

    Posts: 874

    Mar 26, 2015 10:11 AM GMT
    IMHE, the str8 acting guys are simply people who neither embrace the gay lifestyle nor wish to be open about their sexuality to the rest of the world.

    I agree that 'acting' may be stressful to a number of guys who choose to follow this path. Yet, it is their life, and they are calling the shots.

    The choice of whom you wish to date/associate with in any sense in your private life is protected by the tenet of the freedom of association. Like the OP says, like it or not, it's the fucking law! Which should really make us all stop telling people whom to date. icon_biggrin.gif

    No doubt, if you choose to date only white guys, toned, with stunning looks, aged 24-26, str8 acting, driving beamers around, etc., you are limiting your dating pool significantly. But if those are the guys who you wish to hang out with, more power to you!

    SC
  • Import

    Posts: 7190

    Mar 26, 2015 3:32 PM GMT
    Someone type up like a 3 sentence thing to describe what the fuck the OP was actually blabbing about... Obviously, not gonna read the fucking novel above.. I'm sure it'll be boring or incoherent...or both.

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    Mar 26, 2015 3:38 PM GMT


    You said:

    "At the core of this whole straight acting and whitewashing of the gay community is the seeking of approval."

    Erm, no. This is a fallacy just as bad as saying effeminate behaviours or personality traits make all gays look bad.

    Here's news for you; BOTH are OK, and beneficial in showing the broadly varied, wonderful scope of being human, and being gay. Back when I was younger, and right into the 80s we didn't segregate or condemn each other as I see online these days.


  • monstapex

    Posts: 478

    Mar 26, 2015 4:59 PM GMT
    Are the "straight acting men" acting or is the fem guys "over acting"? Outside of movies and television , you rarely see girls or women act as "feminine' as fem gay men.It's like they are trying to show they are more of a woman than a woman is.
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    Mar 26, 2015 5:35 PM GMT
    monstapex saidAre the "straight acting men" acting or is the fem guys "over acting"? Outside of movies and television , you rarely see girls or women act as "feminine' as fem gay men.It's like they are trying to show they are more of a woman than a woman is.

    So true. I've noticed the same double standard. There are always accusations of fraud and self-loathing when it comes to "masc" and "straight-acting", yet no one really discusses how much of effeminacy may be an act as well, which is kinda inadvertently saying effeminacy in gay men is more believable than masculinity.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Mar 26, 2015 7:59 PM GMT
    I don’t think you’re being hypocritical in your theory; you’re just not taking some things into consideration. There is an element of hypocrisy that your concept of “straight acting gay men” needing to act less straight in order to become part of a larger entity would require them to suppress their own sexual identities, implying that acting “less than straight” is somehow preferable or superior.

    Nowhere in your argument do you take into consideration the fact that LGBT do not all originate from a common historically shared culture as do the blacks you compare them to. Neither do you take into consideration that human sexual identity is much more complex than even the outdated simplistic Kinsey chart of the 1950s attempted to explain it in six stereotypes from heterosexuality to homosexuality.

    Kinsey-scale-web.jpg

    Please take a moment to try to fit all of the LGBT into that chart and then do the same for the newer version LGBTTIQQ2SA which still does not include the full gamut of individual human sexual identities.

    LGBT are not a race or even a real culture. Expecting every person who can fit into under the umbrella of LGBT or LGBTTIQQ2SA to assimilate is pretty unrealistic.

    LGBT people are born into every ethnic –socio economic – cultural – religious – racial group/level/denomination and color imaginable. Naturally as adults they retain a part of their own culture along with the values they were taught. Like it or not, cultural identities comprise more of who we are than our sexual identities.

    In your 4th paragraph you said,
    “….Let's go back to this word 'approval'. At the core of this whole straight acting and whitewashing of the gay community is the seeking of approval. Not tolerance. Not even acceptance. Both are words I don't particularly like because it makes me feel like I'm begging the mainstream to give validity to me. I do not.….”

    No offense intended but this reasoning is a pretty puerile reflection of your own lack of maturity in terms of years and actual experience. I felt the same way when I was your age but over the years I learned how flawed that reasoning is. No one is seeking approval from straight people. Nor does “tolerance” have anything to do with it. The entire focus of the efforts over the past half century has been on achieving equality – to put an end to being excluded from anything based on sexual identity.

    Again from your 4th paragraph, you said,
    “I am me and you're gonna treat me the same because it's the fucking law despite whatever you think….”

    Since the beginning of time, there has never been a single law passed that has changed what is in the heart of even a single man. The way to change what is in a man’s heart is to interact with him and achieve it one man at a time. That is what has brought about the enormous change in support for gay equality, not marches, protests or an attitude that they should be compelled to treat us the same “…because it’s the fucking law despite whatever they think….”



  • venue35

    Posts: 4644

    Mar 26, 2015 9:09 PM GMT
    Import saidSomeone type up like a 3 sentence thing to describe what the fuck the OP was actually blabbing about... Obviously, not gonna read the fucking novel above.. I'm sure it'll be boring or incoherent...or both.

    Hi import!
  • Hurley615

    Posts: 8

    Mar 26, 2015 11:30 PM GMT
    I think there's a huge double standard. Like someone above said, who's to say that some men on both ends of the scale aren't purposely exaggerating their traits for attention. I might go to to the club and see some super fem twink prancing around obnoxiously, or I may go to the gym and see men so obsessed with themselves they're staring at their own muscles while they're working out. I just avoid both types of people because it doesn't interest me at all.

    I consider myself "masculine" and most did not believe me when I came out. With the "discreet look" though comes a ton of people who just assume you're stuck up, internalizing homophobia, and not being true to yourself even though some gays are naturally masculine. Even worse, when I've stated a SEXUAL preference in the past for masculine men,I get all sorts of hateful comments calling me a shallow douchebag. Yet people can, and do, state their preferences for fem submissive bottoms and no one says a word to them. No one can help what they're attracted to, and being masculine while also stating a preference for other masculine men in the bedroom does not bring down a community, make one a douchebag, or mean that someone is homophobic.
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    Mar 28, 2015 6:20 PM GMT
    Hurley615 saidWith the "discreet look" though comes a ton of people who just assume you're stuck up, internalizing homophobia, and not being true to yourself even though some gays are naturally masculine.


    True. Fem guys are just as capable of having a negative impact on the gay community themselves, not necessarily by being flamboyant and effeminate, but by criticizing gay men who they think are hiding their sexuality, and basically accusing them of not being gay enough.

    I think if we want to have a strong, thriving gay community, then gay men should accept each other's differences, instead of picking one another apart for being too masculine, or not masculine enough. We all come from different backgrounds, and we all have different attitudes and tastes, and these are not bad things.

    But if members of the gay community can't accept differences in their own culture, then how can we expect others to accept homosexuality when we're too busy bitching at each other?
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Mar 28, 2015 11:13 PM GMT
    new_forest_guy said
    Fem guys are just as capable of having a negative impact on the gay community themselves, not necessarily by being flamboyant and effeminate, but by criticizing gay men who they think are hiding their sexuality, and basically accusing them of not being gay enough.

    I think if we want to have a strong, thriving gay community, then gay men should accept each other's differences, instead of picking one another apart for being too masculine, or not masculine enough. We all come from different backgrounds, and we all have different attitudes and tastes, and these are not bad things.

    But if members of the gay community can't accept differences in their own culture, then how can we expect others to accept homosexuality when we're too busy bitching at each other?


    I've been saying this for years. For the most part the majority of people making an issue of this always happen to be young femmy guys bitching about others being too straight of "not gay enough" by young femmy gay standards. I always feel like telling them gay people have gotten along fine for centuries without stupid young femmy guys imposing a code of conduct.
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    Mar 28, 2015 11:25 PM GMT
    Says the Black man who refuses to sleep with Black men. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Mar 29, 2015 12:05 AM GMT
    I'm not too fond of the term "straight-acting" personally, but if that's how some gay guys want to describe themselves, then others should not be too quick to take offense to it.

    The OP says: These are the men who's personality has been formed by a shakey and antiquated notion of masculinity.

    But there's something else to consider here. These old values have often been taught by family members, not just random strangers. No matter how unsupportive certain family members may be during an individual's experience coming out as gay, it's completely natural to carry on feeling some respect and loyalty towards that family, because these are people that we've been close to, grown up with, and provided for us during early life.

    Then to come out as gay and trying to figure out what direction your life is heading in, and then suddenly have complete strangers saying "forget everything you were told growing up, start acting this way from now on" can be quite alienating. And that's not exactly helpful when you're already feeling alienated from the people you've grown up with.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14354

    Mar 29, 2015 12:27 AM GMT
    new_forest_guy saidI'm not too fond of the term "straight-acting" personally, but if that's how some gay guys want to describe themselves, then others should not be too quick to take offense to it.

    The OP says: These are the men who's personality has been formed by a shakey and antiquated notion of masculinity.

    But there's something else to consider here. These old values have often been taught by family members, not just random strangers. No matter how unsupportive certain family members may be during an individual's experience coming out as gay, it's completely natural to carry on feeling some respect and loyalty towards that family, because these are people that we've been close to, grown up with, and provided for us during early life.

    Then to come out as gay and trying to figure out what direction your life is heading in, and then suddenly have complete strangers saying "forget everything you were told growing up, start acting this way from now on" can be quite alienating. And that's not exactly helpful when you're already feeling alienated from the people you've grown up with.
    Excellent, valid points. Thank you, +200,000.
  • Inque

    Posts: 517

    Mar 29, 2015 10:08 PM GMT
    Radd saidSays the Black man who refuses to sleep with Black men. icon_rolleyes.gif


    you're not going to derail my point here
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Mar 29, 2015 10:36 PM GMT
    Derail your point? There was supposed to be discernible point to this? Fooled us!
  • Inque

    Posts: 517

    Mar 29, 2015 10:54 PM GMT
    bobbobbob saidDerail your point? There was supposed to be discernible point to this? Fooled us!


    yeah I wrote a lot of stuff and had a fancy title and everything
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    Mar 30, 2015 12:31 AM GMT
    Inque said
    Radd saidSays the Black man who refuses to sleep with Black men. icon_rolleyes.gif


    you're not going to derail my point here


    Not trying to derail you. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.