Religious Freedom vs Gay Rights

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 03, 2015 7:21 PM GMT
    I read the following article in the Atlantic. The article made me think and I haven't decided if I agree or not.

    I will say I think 'we' should be better than 'them' and refrain from threats of violence in response to discrimination.

    If I owned a pizza shop I wouldn't turn anyone away. But would I want to cater an event for Westboro Baptist Church??
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    Apr 03, 2015 7:32 PM GMT
    Why is it always a 'Vs' Case with media articles. like when people say you are either for religion or for science. There are as many opinions and beliefs as there are people.

    I just think about how far the world has come in recent years, i'm just happy i live in a relatively accepting western country.
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    Apr 03, 2015 7:33 PM GMT
    Article link missing? In any case...

    Absolutely you would have to cater their event, doing as good a job as you'd do for anyone else.

    However, you would not have to write on the pizza with pepperoni's DIE FAG DIE were they to try and force that.

    So why don't we have to write DIE FAG on their pizza but they have to write Congrats to the Groom and Groom on our cake?

    Because there's a difference between catering to the demands of humanity and demanding the catering of hate.
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    Apr 03, 2015 9:13 PM GMT
    OP's hypothetical scenario makes an interesting point: we have to be able to handle what we're demanding. I can totally see a gang of anti-gay groups trolling gay-owned businesses with antagonizing - though not blatantly hateful - requests.


  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Apr 03, 2015 9:15 PM GMT
    I guess we should compromise and use separate drinking fountains... Maybe hang ourselves more often as teenagers???

    /sarcasm.


    Vomiting now...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 03, 2015 9:27 PM GMT
    http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/should-businesses-that-quietly-oppose-gay-marriage-be-destroyed/389489/

    Sorry, here is the article.

    And Joe, I'm not advocating for compromise. Like I said I haven't decided what I think of the article but it raises some good points. But I see you'd like to continue scorched earth tactics in the cultural wars.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 03, 2015 9:38 PM GMT
    Wyndahoi saidI read the following article in the Atlantic. The article made me think and I haven't decided if I agree or not.

    I will say I think 'we' should be better than 'them' and refrain from threats of violence in response to discrimination.

    If I owned a pizza shop I wouldn't turn anyone away. But would I want to cater an event for Westboro Baptist Church??


    Hmmm the article must have got lost because it didn't follow. LOL.

    You sound like me in saying "we" should be better than "them." I've been trying to gently and politely pound that in people's heads for years. You can go through topics right here in RJ and read comments by gay men that are just as bigoted towards stereotyped groups of straight people as anything you can find said by straight bigots about gays.

    I fail at times out of pure frustration but I really make an effort to hold myself to a higher standard than acting as ignorant as the people who oppose anything and everything towards equality for gays.

    Like you, if I owned a pizza shop and a group from a church like Westboro came in - not even for a wedding party, I'd probably do my best to get them to leave and think it was their idea and and not mine.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Apr 03, 2015 9:46 PM GMT
    Wyndahoi saidhttp://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/should-businesses-that-quietly-oppose-gay-marriage-be-destroyed/389489/

    Sorry, here is the article.

    And Joe, I'm not advocating for compromise. Like I said I haven't decided what I think of the article but it raises some good points. But I see you'd like to continue scorched earth tactics in the cultural wars.

    I'm not the one refusing to serve people. I don't turn Christians away from my store. I'm reacting to being blatantly discriminated against.

    Strange how you see this "war" as a two way street, when gay people just want to be treated as equals.
  • FuerteC

    Posts: 588

    Apr 03, 2015 11:16 PM GMT
    Why should one religion take precedence over another? I can only see the demise of religion. It has to. It must.

    The only thing common between religions is the human aspect and that is humanism. That is what we all/should agree on. Scientific evidence.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14295

    Apr 03, 2015 11:18 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Wyndahoi saidI read the following article in the Atlantic. The article made me think and I haven't decided if I agree or not.

    I will say I think 'we' should be better than 'them' and refrain from threats of violence in response to discrimination.

    If I owned a pizza shop I wouldn't turn anyone away. But would I want to cater an event for Westboro Baptist Church??


    A very good question. A question most here will be unable to grapple with.
    Especially Minneapolis motor mouth (hottjoe) since he is stoned most of the time therefore he cannot think clearly.
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    Apr 04, 2015 12:00 AM GMT
    HottJoe said
    Wyndahoi saidhttp://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/should-businesses-that-quietly-oppose-gay-marriage-be-destroyed/389489/

    Sorry, here is the article.

    And Joe, I'm not advocating for compromise. Like I said I haven't decided what I think of the article but it raises some good points. But I see you'd like to continue scorched earth tactics in the cultural wars.

    I'm not the one refusing to serve people. I don't turn Christians away from my store. I'm reacting to being blatantly discriminated against.

    Strange how you see this "war" as a two way street, when gay people just want to be treated as equals.


    The folks at Memory Pizza aren't refusing to serve anyone either. They don't want to cater a wedding. And in response they're getting death threats. That's what I mean by scorched earth tactics. It's the "do what we say or else we will hurt you" aspect that I am uncomfortable with.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 04, 2015 1:05 AM GMT
    https://www.aclu.org/using-religion-discriminate
    2012-lib-001-urtd-500x124-rel1.jpg


    Wyndahoi said...They don't want to cater a wedding. And in response they're getting death threats....


    Please provide evidence of these death threats.

    $842,387 of $200k

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 04, 2015 2:46 AM GMT
    FuerteC saidWhy should one religion take precedence over another? I can only see the demise of religion. It has to. It must.

    The only thing common between religions is the human aspect and that is humanism. That is what we all/should agree on. Scientific evidence.




    The human aspect only has to do with control of other humans. Not the demise of religion per se, just the demise of the control it has over the masses, scientifically speaking.

    Social control
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control

    Social control is the regulation of individual and group behavior in an attempt to gain conformity and compliance[disambiguation needed] to the rules of a given society, state, or social group. Sociologists identify two basic forms of social control:

    1.Informal means of control - Internalisation of norms and values by a process known as socialization, which is defined as "the process by which an individual, born with behavioral potentialities of enormously wide range, is led to develop actual behavior which is confined to the narrower range of what is acceptable for him by the group standards."[1]
    2.Formal means of social control - External sanctions enforced by government to prevent the establishment of chaos or anomie in society. Some theorists, such as Émile Durkheim, refer to this form of control as regulation.

  • Rene_Aensland

    Posts: 2495

    Apr 04, 2015 3:04 AM GMT
    Religious Freedom, what a fucking joke.
    Big ass fucking loop hole to allow discrimination.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 04, 2015 8:48 AM GMT
    My "gay politics" roots started in 1977. Back then both major parties reviled us with equal fervor. Believe it or not, being rejected by both parties was better for gays than being dependent and subservient to one and against the other. It was better because it made gays depend on each other, work together and push liberal/conservative issues completely aside. Back then race was even less an issue in gay circles than it is now because black heteros and white heteros agreed on few things except their mutual hatred of fags, regardless of their color. We HAD to stick together and work together in order to survive.

    1977 was the year Anita Bryant started her holy war on gays in South Florida that went nationwide. We called it the "Orange Juice War" because Anita was the advertising spokeswoman for Florida Orange Juice and, thanks to the behind the scenes work of gays across the US Anita lost her multi-million dollar gig with the Orange Juice Association shortly after she declared war on gays. That was the first thing she lost but not the last. She's been on a nonstop losing streak ever since; her marriage, her career, her fortune, her amusement park, her theater in Branson Missouri, her autobiographical movie, and all royalties off her songs. She's been bankrupt twice. Now she's 75 or 76, living in her hometown as a recluse but every year on March 25th she gets birthday cards from people she's never met that say things like, "we'll never forget you." We haven't forgotten her or the grief, ruined careers and even suicides she caused. He first husband Bob Green had once been the biggest name in top 40 radio in South Florida. After the Orange Juice War the only only job he could get was an after midnight shift on a 3rd rate AM station. He died broke, rightly blaming gays for everything that had gone wrong in his life but he never could prove it.

    Back then we worked behind the scenes, playing dirty, never doing straightforward confrontations but stealthily destroying their lives and careers like they were doing to gays, first in South Florida and then in other areas. No marches, no sit ins. We went after them individually, exposing their extra marital affairs, straight and not. We collected dirt on any prominent hetero we could and exploited it to ruin them.

    Now in 2015 I see gays as subservient and dependent on a political party that is guaranteed to throw us under the bus the first time we become a political liability. We've lost our spirit of unity and interdependence on one another to survive. We've lost the real power we had when we worked together for our common cause by trading it for a small place at the table partisan hetero politics.

    We've become nothing but pieces on their political board game. We've adopted their divisive ideologies as being more important to us than the best interests of all gays. And when gay equality does come about it will not because WE won it. It will be because they let us have it on their terms.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 04, 2015 12:03 PM GMT
    bobbobbob saidI fail at times out of pure frustration but I really make an effort to hold myself to a higher standard

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 04, 2015 12:09 PM GMT
    Sharkspeare said
    bobbobbob saidI fail at times out of pure frustration but I really make an effort to hold myself to a higher standard

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


    The funny part is that my words were quoted and laughed at by someone who has never aspired to higher standards... on at least 3 other gay forums I've found out. I think you're banned on at least 2 of them aren't you?
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Apr 04, 2015 12:20 PM GMT
    Wyndahoi said
    HottJoe said
    Wyndahoi saidhttp://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/should-businesses-that-quietly-oppose-gay-marriage-be-destroyed/389489/

    Sorry, here is the article.

    And Joe, I'm not advocating for compromise. Like I said I haven't decided what I think of the article but it raises some good points. But I see you'd like to continue scorched earth tactics in the cultural wars.

    I'm not the one refusing to serve people. I don't turn Christians away from my store. I'm reacting to being blatantly discriminated against.

    Strange how you see this "war" as a two way street, when gay people just want to be treated as equals.


    The folks at Memory Pizza aren't refusing to serve anyone either. They don't want to cater a wedding. And in response they're getting death threats. That's what I mean by scorched earth tactics. It's the "do what we say or else we will hurt you" aspect that I am uncomfortable with.

    Are you saying they won't cater any weddings, or just gay weddings? Would they cater a heterosexual Christian wedding?

    Either way the scorched earth isn't vengeance enough. God should put them in hell, since they're in the business of judging others...
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    Apr 04, 2015 2:53 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Wyndahoi saidI read the following article in the Atlantic. The article made me think and I haven't decided if I agree or not.

    I will say I think 'we' should be better than 'them' and refrain from threats of violence in response to discrimination.

    If I owned a pizza shop I wouldn't turn anyone away. But would I want to cater an event for Westboro Baptist Church??


    A very good question. A question most here will be unable to grapple with.



    If you bothered to read the posts you would have seen it answered, and rather well.

    As for threats of violence, yes, it's going too far and is ridiculous escalation, but you have to consider the large volume of straights that trolled the pizza place before deciding it's gay people responsible. You also know darn well that trolling is an internet pastime for far too many, and this pizza place was ripe for the lols. Disgusting as I think it fuelled the sympathetic surge of donations in their gofundme.

  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14295

    Apr 04, 2015 2:54 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    Wyndahoi said
    HottJoe said
    Wyndahoi saidhttp://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/should-businesses-that-quietly-oppose-gay-marriage-be-destroyed/389489/

    Sorry, here is the article.

    And Joe, I'm not advocating for compromise. Like I said I haven't decided what I think of the article but it raises some good points. But I see you'd like to continue scorched earth tactics in the cultural wars.

    I'm not the one refusing to serve people. I don't turn Christians away from my store. I'm reacting to being blatantly discriminated against.

    Strange how you see this "war" as a two way street, when gay people just want to be treated as equals.


    The folks at Memory Pizza aren't refusing to serve anyone either. They don't want to cater a wedding. And in response they're getting death threats. That's what I mean by scorched earth tactics. It's the "do what we say or else we will hurt you" aspect that I am uncomfortable with.

    Are you saying they won't cater any weddings, or just gay weddings? Would they cater a heterosexual Christian wedding?

    Either way the scorched earth isn't vengeance enough. God should put them in hell, since they're in the business of judging others...
    Just like God should put you in hell for both being overly judgmental towards others and for poisoning your itty bitty brain with too much marijuana.icon_twisted.gif
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2923

    Apr 04, 2015 7:11 PM GMT
    Wyndahoi saidI read the following article in the Atlantic. The article made me think and I haven't decided if I agree or not.

    I will say I think 'we' should be better than 'them' and refrain from threats of violence in response to discrimination.

    If I owned a pizza shop I wouldn't turn anyone away. But would I want to cater an event for Westboro Baptist Church??


    I'm with you, But I also think there is a fundamental difference between religious people who try to deny equality through legislation, and the LGBT position (as I understand it; they never send me the agenda!) which simply demands equal treatment.

    I wish we didn't get bogged down about pizza shops or florists, but if we have non-discrimination legislation, which I believe we must, some few holdouts are going to face prosecution. The dogpile on places like the pizza joint - Yelp! had to remove the whole thread) is regrettable, however. Let the law take its course, let the bigots make their futile attempts at self-martyrdom; idiots we have with us always.

    (Confession: I posted on Yelp, and now wish I hadn't given in to momentary mob violence.)
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    Apr 04, 2015 8:10 PM GMT


    However, the point is....


    934882_1471693633111800_5546615361043317
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 04, 2015 8:17 PM GMT
    Wyndahoi saidIf I owned a pizza shop I wouldn't turn anyone away. But would I want to cater an event for Westboro Baptist Church??


    Stop equating people BORN BLACK/GAY/REDHEADED with people WHO JOINED A CHURCH.

    Stop making false equivalencies with PEOPLE and BELIEFS. The two are not the same. Therein lies your problem, and why this is so confusing for you.
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    Apr 04, 2015 8:21 PM GMT
    mickeytopogigio said
    Wyndahoi saidIf I owned a pizza shop I wouldn't turn anyone away. But would I want to cater an event for Westboro Baptist Church??


    Stop equating people BORN BLACK/GAY/REDHEADED with people WHO JOINED A CHURCH.

    Stop making false equivalencies with PEOPLE and BELIEFS. The two are not the same. Therein lies your problem, and why this is so confusing for you.


    This is a very salient point and what the whole mess hinges on, Wyndahoi.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 04, 2015 8:30 PM GMT
    I heard on a call-in radio show: a caller proclaiming that you can't change a person's beliefs.

    They were right, I cannot. Change someone else's beliefs.

    Mine change all the time. Continually surprising myself with the ability to get smarter, do better, achieve more. Fuck, it's not like my brain's carved from limestone.

    But you know, the gay in me...that's not going anywhere. Wanted to change it when I was a teenager, but no use. I'm gay, I was born gay. If I weren't an atheist I'd tell you God made me gay. If God doesn't make mistakes, he meant for me to be this way, right?