True or False?

  • conservativej...

    Posts: 2465

    Apr 28, 2015 6:29 PM GMT

    For generations the residents of inner-city Baltimore have grown dependent on the government. The government of that once great city and of the State of Maryland have kept large numbers of folks in Baltimore in near poverty by offering dependence in return for votes -- not personal or economic freedom, not even safety; just dependence.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Apr 28, 2015 6:31 PM GMT
    overly-simplistic
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    Apr 28, 2015 6:58 PM GMT
    tj85016 saidoverly-simplistic



    Consider the source.
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    Apr 28, 2015 7:29 PM GMT
    I think the problem is the police over zealous action towards the Black community. Not long ago in 2006 was this.

    NYT: In a class-action lawsuit, the American Civil Liberties Union and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People accused the Baltimore Police Department of encouraging arrests without probable cause to increase arrest numbers. The suit, filed in Baltimore Circuit Court, asserts that of more than 76,000 people arrested in the city last year, more than 25,000 were released without being charged.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/16/us/16brfs-005.html?_r=0

    Police action is tough in Seattle too but given all the liberal billionaires walking around, hardly proof that people are exchanging poverty to vote.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 28, 2015 9:05 PM GMT
    woodsmen saidI think the problem is the police over zealous action towards the Black community. Not long ago in 2006 was this.

    NYT: In a class-action lawsuit, the American Civil Liberties Union and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People accused the Baltimore Police Department of encouraging arrests without probable cause to increase arrest numbers. The suit, filed in Baltimore Circuit Court, asserts that of more than 76,000 people arrested in the city last year, more than 25,000 were released without being charged.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/16/us/16brfs-005.html?_r=0

    Police action is tough in Seattle too but given all the liberal billionaires walking around, hardly proof that people are exchanging poverty to vote.


    Hate to say it, but you too are being overly simplistic in your approach to the issue. You say the "the problem is the police over zealous action towards the Black community." The WHOLE PROBLEM? Are you saying that the full bulk of the onus falls on the Baltimore police?

    You don't think that this could possibly be part of the problem?


    In 2011, Baltimore police reported 196 homicides, the lowest number of slayings since recording 197 homicides in 1978.

    That number is far lower than the peak homicide count of 353 slayings in 1993. The drop in 2011 was significant, but the homicide rate was in the same range as the late 1980s when the city had another 130,000 residents.

    City leaders credited their sustained focus on repeat violent offenders and an increased community engagement for the continued drop, reflecting a nationwide decline in crime. However, Baltimore's decline was short-lived, as a reported 219 and 235 homicides were committed in 2012 and 2013, respectively. Baltimore's jump in homicides in 2013 defied regional and national trends.

    Baltimore's level of violent crime is much higher than the national average. In 2009, a total of 1,318,398 violent crimes were reported nationwide across the United States, equivalent to a rate of 0.4 incidents per 100 people.


    It's hard to believe that if tomorrow all crime stopped in Baltimore that the police would persist in arresting people, isn't it?


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    Apr 28, 2015 9:24 PM GMT
    Not sure I said the police is the whole problem in Baltimore, Bob. But let us explore that logic of yours deeper. It seems to me the evidence you show points to the fact that police in Baltimore is ineffectual to slow crime in that city while inflicting pain on the Black community.
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    Apr 29, 2015 6:51 AM GMT
    Sounds logical, that's how our entire system works!

    People have grown to dependent on others and have willfully given up their free will........

    I can take care of my self better than anyone.

    I want nothing free, thank you!
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3280

    Apr 29, 2015 9:08 AM GMT
    Given the injury of Freddie Gray one has to conclude something very bad happened to him in police custody.

    It would be exceedingly rare to have a prior medical condition that would predispose him to that injury he died from.

    Whether the injury occurred in the van or during the take down ultimately its the Police fault about what happened to him. In many ways its similar to the choke out that happened in NYC.

    We have to have a national conversation on what police can do in the process of a arrest. There needs to be changes on Jurisdiction of police brutality. It almost always should be a special prosecutor, not the local DA.

    The other almost larger issue is the all to familiar "burn that shit down" approach by some communities. In the Breitbart piece the author has some valid points on how the blind support for 1 party has not served the black community in general. I do think he goes a bit too far and the problem transcends party.

    The only reason I think there is a attitude that one could burn its own neighborhood down is that someone will come in "US taxpayer" and fund some sort of community development. In my opinion the racial dimension that some are claiming is the root cause for the particular "anger" is unfounded. Baltimore's mayor is African American, the police chief is African American.

    The Mayors own words said it all. Her "space to destroy" comment was not an accident. In a candid moment I think she was admitting that a good portion of her constituents are lawless criminals.

    Fear of the police and arrest is just a small component in what keeps a city from turning into a Mad Max scenario. Social values are the backbone of what keeps society running. Can you find any of that social glue in that community?
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 29, 2015 11:37 AM GMT
    woodsmen saidNot sure I said the police is the whole problem in Baltimore, Bob.

    Here's what you said. You mentioned no other possible "problems" but the police.
    woodsmen saidI think the problem is the police over zealous action towards the Black community.


    woodsmen saidBut let us explore that logic of yours deeper. It seems to me the evidence you show points to the fact that police in Baltimore is ineffectual to slow crime in that city while inflicting pain on the Black community.


    Start here and see three small charts comparing crime rates of Baltimore to the entire state of Maryland. It may help you grasp the enormity of the real issue.. which isn't caused by the police.
    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/md/baltimore/crime/

    My point was and still is the biased manner of over simplification too many people are using to point fingers in the Baltimore riot. The problems were many and not simple.

    As tragic as the death of Freddie Gray was, it does not accurately portray police efforts to combat crime in Baltimore. if it did there would have been many deaths at the hands of police before Freddie Gray and the protests would have been more universal and spontaneous.

    By calling the police ineffectual are you referring to them being unable to wholly eliminate crime? They were bringing down crimes rates until 2013. At no apparent fault of the police efforts, crime rates inexplicably began to dramatically increase in that year. Because of that increase in crime in a city with an already alarming crime rate police naturally responded to combat it. They didn't respond to it as if they were in Mayberry to break up a pecan pie recipe plagiarizing ring. Would anyone have expected them to do different? You referred to the problem as being "the police over zealous action towards the Black community." The you cite a nonexistent "fact that police in Baltimore (are) ineffectual to slow crime in that city while inflicting pain on the Black community."

    Blacks comprise almost 70% of the population of that city, Over 90% of the black victims of crimes in Baltimore are victims of black criminals. Over 89% of all crimes in Baltimore are committed by blacks. Any inconvenience police cause the population of Baltimore doesn't come close to the effects of of the city's criminals. By and large the majority of blacks in Baltimore understand that and have a greater appreciation for the police than is portrayed in the media. Tuesday police lines were protected by human shield lines of black citizens.

    Taking these figures into consideration along with your words "I think the problem is the police over zealous action towards the Black community" - the obvious question for you to answer is exactly where should the police focus to combat crime they should not focus where the overwhelming majority of crime originates and occurs?

    The mobs of rioters, looters, arsonists on Monday were comprised in no small part of school children as young as thirteen. Parents not controlling/supervising their own children was no small part of the problem in Baltimore.

    From wikipedia:
    In 2011, Baltimore police reported 196 homicides, the lowest number of slayings since recording 197 homicides in 1978. That number is far lower than the peak homicide count of 353 slayings in 1993. The drop in 2011 was significant, but the homicide rate was in the same range as the late 1980s when the city had another 130,000 residents. City leaders credited their sustained focus on repeat violent offenders and an increased community engagement for the continued drop, reflecting a nationwide decline in crime.

    However, Baltimore's decline was short-lived, as a reported 219 and 235 homicides were committed in 2012 and 2013, respectively. Baltimore's jump in homicides in 2013 defied regional and national trends.

    Baltimore's level of violent crime is much higher than the national average. In 2009, a total of 1,318,398 violent crimes were reported nationwide across the United States, equivalent to a rate of 0.4 incidents per 100 people ❞
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore







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    Apr 29, 2015 1:56 PM GMT
    See http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4043663

    NYT: A well-documented history of extreme brutality and misconduct set the stage for just this kind of unrest.

    Proof can be found in a meticulously reported investigation by The Baltimore Sun of lawsuits and settlements that had been generated by police-brutality claims. “Over the past four years,” the investigation noted, “more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations.” The victims included a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant woman who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

    The report, published last fall, detailed what it called “a frightful human toll” inflicted by the police: broken bones, head trauma, organ failure, and even death, occurring during questionable arrests.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/opinion/what-came-before-baltimores-riots.html?
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    Apr 29, 2015 2:15 PM GMT
    ^ The problem is that the Baltimore Police Department is 60% white.

    Whites dominated Baltimore police department. Blacks were not hired as police officers until 1937.

    Prior to 1966, African American officers were limited to foot patrols as they were barred from the use of squad cars. These officers were quarantined in rank, barred from patrolling in White neighborhoods. Further, African American officers were the target of racial harassment from their Caucasian coworkers and African American citizens in the communities they patrolled. During this time African American officers were subject to racial slurs from white co-workers during roll call, and encountered degrading racial graffiti in the very districts/units they were assigned.

    During the civil rights movement, the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) report showed the BPD to be the most corrupt and antiquated in the nation with an almost non-existent relationship with Baltimore's African American community. This lack of relationship resulted in African American citizens being subject to both excessive force from police officers, and retaliation from community members for interacting with city police officers.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 29, 2015 3:45 PM GMT
    OH JEEZZZZZ... Now you are being a retro-justifier... "the past injustices rationalize our future failures. Blame the dead people!!! They did this to us!!! "

    woodsmen said^ The problem is that the Baltimore Police Department is 60% white.


    Explain how the problem with crime in Baltimore has anything to do with the race of one officer or 50% of the officers on the Baltimore police force. What does the racial identity of police officers have to do with whether they are good or bad police officers?
    I heard just last night on MSNBC from a black Baltimore city councilman that the police force is over 50% black but that's beside the matter.


    Please explain how any of this below has had an effect on the situation in Baltimore in 2015

    woodsmen saidWhites dominated Baltimore police department. Blacks were not hired as police officers until 1937.

    woodsmen saidPrior to 1966, African American officers were limited to foot patrols as they were barred from the use of squad cars. These officers were quarantined in rank, barred from patrolling in White neighborhoods. Further, African American officers were the target of racial harassment from their Caucasian coworkers and African American citizens in the communities they patrolled. During this time African American officers were subject to racial slurs from white co-workers during roll call, and encountered degrading racial graffiti in the very districts/units they were assigned.

    woodsmen saidDuring the civil rights movement, the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) report showed the BPD to be the most corrupt and antiquated in the nation with an almost non-existent relationship with Baltimore's African American community. This lack of relationship resulted in African American citizens being subject to both excessive force from police officers, and retaliation from community members for interacting with city police officers.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Apr 29, 2015 3:51 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    tj85016 saidoverly-simplistic



    Consider the source.






    icon_lol.gif
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    Apr 29, 2015 4:37 PM GMT
    Well Bob, I can only explain it by recapping what has transpired recently in the Baltimore Police Department leading to the current unrest.

    NYT: A well-documented history of extreme brutality and misconduct set the stage for just this kind of unrest.

    Proof can be found in a meticulously reported investigation by The Baltimore Sun of lawsuits and settlements that had been generated by police-brutality claims. “Over the past four years,” the investigation noted, “more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations.” The victims included a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant woman who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

    The report, published last fall, detailed what it called “a frightful human toll” inflicted by the police: broken bones, head trauma, organ failure, and even death, occurring during questionable arrests.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/opinion/what-came-before-baltimores-riots.html?
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 29, 2015 6:26 PM GMT
    No... let's get back to this.... you said .......

    woodsmen said The problem is that the Baltimore Police Department is 60% white.


    Please do your best to explain your reasoning for saying the race of one or even half of the Baltimore police in April 2015 force is "the problem.".....


    Are you attempting to infer that the examples you've cited twice (without links) are all done just by white police officers? If so please do give us proof of that.





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    Apr 29, 2015 6:35 PM GMT
    Which examples are you referring to? Recent atrocities by the Baltimore Police Department are linked.

  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 29, 2015 6:46 PM GMT
    woodsmen saidWhich examples are you referring to? Recent atrocities by the Baltimore Police Department are linked.


    ^^^ My apologies. I didn't go to the link on the first time you mentioned those four incidents.

    Back to the question...
    [quote][cite]bobbobbob said[/cite]No... let's get back to this.... you said .......

    woodsmen said The problem is that the Baltimore Police Department is 60% white.


    Please do your best to explain your reasoning for saying the race of one or even half of the Baltimore police in April 2015 force is "the problem.".....

    At no time in television coverage or in any of the many links I've read has there been a mention of white police brutality on black citizens of Baltimore. In fact there's been a conspicuous absence of accusations of anything about "the problem" in Baltimore being due to the race of police officers.



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    Apr 29, 2015 6:50 PM GMT
    ^ Why would a city that is "90 percent" black as you said have a police department that is 60 percent white?
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    Apr 29, 2015 6:56 PM GMT
    woodsmen said^ Why would a city that is "90 percent" black as you said have a police department that is 60 percent white?


    Maybe they finally realize that the white force has the guts to clean house.
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    Apr 29, 2015 7:01 PM GMT
    2bnaked said
    woodsmen said^ Why would a city that is "90 percent" black as you said have a police department that is 60 percent white?


    Maybe they finally realize that the white force has the guts to clean house.


    Hispanics get kicked in the balls bad here daily for shitty reasons. Yet, they are grateful to be here and seem to go with the political bull. They get free medicine, free food, FREE EDUCATION and a better home to live in, than a cardboard box that, if you drive down to the coast of Baja Mexico, Mexico, you will find people living in an old refrigerator box.
    YOU DON'T SEE THEM BURNING DOWN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 29, 2015 7:01 PM GMT
    woodsmen said^ Why would a city that is "90 percent" black as you said have a police department that is 60 percent white?


    I never said that 90% of the population of Baltimore was black. I said
    bobbobbob said
    Blacks comprise almost 70% of the population of that city, Over 90% of the black victims of crimes in Baltimore are victims of black criminals. Over 89% of all crimes in Baltimore are committed by blacks.


    From Wikipedia:
    According to the 2010 Census, 63.7% of the population was Black, ....

    and back to the question once again.....

    you said....
    woodsmen said The problem is that the Baltimore Police Department is 60% white.


    Please do your best to explain your reasoning for saying the race of one or even half of the Baltimore police in April 2015 force is "the problem.".....
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    Apr 29, 2015 7:13 PM GMT
    The atrocities of the Baltimore Police Department are not denied by you Bob. Let's just keep this simple, if the Baltimore Police Department comprises 10 police officers, 6 of them white are responsible for the atrocities committed against black people not all of them criminals.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 29, 2015 8:22 PM GMT
    woodsmen saidThe atrocities of the Baltimore Police Department are not denied by you Bob. Let's just keep this simple, if the Baltimore Police Department comprises 10 police officers, 6 of them white are responsible for the atrocities committed against black people not all of them criminals.


    Holy Moley... what's so hard about answering a simple question?

    Here we go for the third time .......
    woodsmen said The problem is that the Baltimore Police Department is 60% white.


    Please do your best to explain your reasoning for saying the race of one or even half of the Baltimore police in April 2015 force is "the problem.".....

    I'm giving you the benefit of not choosing your words well enough to be be clear. The way I'm reading what you wrote ... you seem to be saying the the 6 white officers out of 10 are automatically guilty of atrocities against black people.

    Seeing how not even the articles you've chosen to site any example of white on black racist application of police force and the fact that I've searched in vain for any report of white officers being accused of atrocities against blacks in Baltimore I'm reluctant to believe race is an issue in with the police force in Baltimore.

    And you know as well as I do any incident of white police brutality on blacks never misses the attention of the media.

    I sincerely want to know your reasoning in saying "The problem is that the Baltimore Police Department is 60% white." I need to understand it.

    Thanks.
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    Apr 29, 2015 8:30 PM GMT
    I think I explained it Bob. In fact, my posts provide a trail leading to it.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Apr 29, 2015 8:54 PM GMT
    woodsmen saidI think I explained it Bob. In fact, my posts provide a trail leading to it.


    Nope... your posts leave no trail to how you thought that was a reasonable thing to say without any evidence to back it up.

    I'll have to assume you just pulled that line out of your butt until I find reason to believe the race of police officers is a factor in what has happened in Baltimore.