Tesla Announces New Product To ‘Fundamentally Change The Way The World Uses Energy’ - Powerwall

  • metta

    Posts: 39169

    May 01, 2015 3:59 PM GMT
    Tesla Announces New Product To ‘Fundamentally Change The Way The World Uses Energy’


    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/05/01/3653015/tesla-announces-home-battery/
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    May 01, 2015 5:25 PM GMT
    metta8 saidTesla Announces New Product To ‘Fundamentally Change The Way The World Uses Energy’


    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/05/01/3653015/tesla-announces-home-battery/


    I've been hearing about this for the past month and am really excited about it - if the batteries are what they are building them up to be. I put in a small array of solar panels for heat when I added a solarium to the house 13 years ago strictly for heating it. I've since found out that during out mild winters I can heat the entire house with the solariums during the days just by running the central unit to circulate the air. Since then I've been sold on solar power.

    However, with all "next big things" I'll avoid getting in on the initial rush to buy and wait for the prices to go down and for the last bugs to be worked out of them.

    This is an exciting development.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    May 01, 2015 7:23 PM GMT
    you wanna see some real pollution? just wait until we start digging up billions of pounds of vanadium, beryllium, bromine and lithium to make these batteries

    not to mention the electrolytes used
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    May 01, 2015 7:27 PM GMT
    +1
  • metta

    Posts: 39169

    May 01, 2015 8:19 PM GMT
    Headline: Should You Get a Tesla Home Battery? Let Physics Explain





    http://www.wired.com/2015/05/get-tesla-home-battery-let-physics-explain/
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    May 01, 2015 9:17 PM GMT
    Thanks for posting that, Metta. Spending over $3,000 for a system that can provide between 3 or 4 hours of minimal power id not what I'd be wanting. I'll wait a few more years for the better and cheaper versions that are sure to come.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    May 05, 2015 4:51 AM GMT
    this system is dumb, makes no sense at all and is how people get suckered

    So let's see..... I'll assume (and I'm being liberal) that this thing in cyclic use will return 10 years of power with an average drawdown of 50%. Drawdown percentage is critical; a pack that can handle 3,000 cycles with a 50% drawdown can probably only handle 1,000 if the drawdown is in the 70-80% range.

    This in turn means that the actual capacity of the pack, in real use, isn't 7kWh -- it's half that, or 3.5kWh.

    So you're paying $350/year for 3.5kWh of storage. Now double that investment for the grid-tie inverter and wiring, and by the way, inverters don't last forever either. We'll assume that's good for 10 years as well although you might do better on the inverter.

    Now we have a $700 annual cost, before the cost of the money (which isn't zero!) and we haven't actually done anything but provision a storage bank for power; we have no source yet.

    So how much power does that $700 buy? About 7,000 kWh at the average cost of about 10 cents/kWh around the country. Some areas pay more, some less.

    The average house can run for anywhere from several months to nearly a full year on 7,000 kWh and, you haven't bought the solar panels yet.

    I see utterly no reason to buy such a system. The so-called "backup" system is even more idiotic; a 5kW backup generator can be had for under $1,000, is portable as it requires no permanent installation and will run for as long as you can feed it gasoline.

    We haven't looked at the environmental and other sunk costs of producing the batteries; lithium is mined, and is a pretty nasty business -- never mind that most of it is produced from third-world nations.
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    May 06, 2015 3:45 PM GMT
    It makes no economic sense with electricity at 10 cents but in San Francisco I'm paying 35 cents and it getting more difficult and expensive to get permits for grid tie solar. Unfortunately it's all Linked to Solar city who are the Enron of solar. The good part is the battery is a real bargin compared to the competition . My grid tie inverter alone was $2,500. It also unlikely that you would ever have any surplus electricity to sell from a PV array if you could store electricity on site.


    is how people get suckered

    So let's see..... I'll assume (and I'm being liberal) that this thing in cyclic use will return 10 years of power with an average drawdown of 50%. Drawdown percentage is critical; a pack that can handle 3,000 cycles with a 50% drawdown can probably only handle 1,000 if the drawdown is in the 70-80% range.

    This in turn means that the actual capacity of the pack, in real use, isn't 7kWh -- it's half that, or 3.5kWh.

    So you're paying $350/year for 3.5kWh of storage. Now double that investment for the grid-tie inverter and wiring, and by the way, inverters don't last forever either. We'll assume that's good for 10 years as well although you might do better on the inverter.

    Now we have a $700 annual cost, before the cost of the money (which isn't zero!) and we haven't actually done anything but provision a storage bank for power; we have no source yet.

    So how much power does that $700 buy? About 7,000 kWh at the average cost of about 10 cents/kWh around the country. Some areas pay more, some less.

    The average house can run for anywhere from several months to nearly a full year on 7,000 kWh and, you haven't bought the solar panels yet.

    I see utterly no reason to buy such a system. The so-called "backup" system is even more idiotic; a 5kW backup generator can be had for under $1,000, is portable as it requires no permanent installation and will run for as long as you can feed it gasoline.

    We haven't looked at the environmental and other sunk costs of producing the batteries; lithium is mined, and is a pretty nasty business -- never mind that most of it is produced from third-world nations.[/quote]
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    May 07, 2015 6:39 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidyou wanna see some real pollution? just wait until we start digging up billions of pounds of vanadium, beryllium, bromine and lithium to make these batteries

    not to mention the electrolytes used


    Very interesting comment re the production of batteries, and about the pollution factor and socio-economic costs especially to the Third world.

    I am writing from Pakistan, where the Chinese, for instance, are being given huge incentives to invest in the province of Balochistan to mine minerals etc. This is coming at the cost of real lives and hundreds of 'disappeared' people who might protest the central government's decision to exploit the province which has never benefited at all. This is state terrorism at it's worst. The returns are pocketed by corrupt government officials from the very top to the bottom. And China itself has been written of as one of the worst polluters of the environment in recent years.

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-life-and-death-of-sabeen-mahmud

    Where will the batteries Tesla will provide be actually produced? Brazil, Africa, Asia...? Wherever the human cost is invisible to the consumer!
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    May 07, 2015 2:59 PM GMT
    I think the verdict is still out on this, a developing technology, and I'll wait to offer my (untrained) opinion here about the Tesla product. But I'll say this regarding the concept of having a home battery:

    We already have small uninterrupted power sources for our electronics. Why? Because in this metro area of Fort Lauderdale we lose power momentarily for a few moments almost weekly. I never saw this even when I lived in rural farming communities in North Dakota during major blizzards. WTF???

    And we can't have a generator in our condo, which would take a few seconds to automatically respond, anyway. By which time our computer data is lost, and a lot of our electronic devices need to be reset.

    Our power company FPL (Florida Power & Light) offers a whole-house solution for a monthly fee. Which I decline to buy. It's THEIR problem, why should I pay THEM to cover it up?

    Some of our friends with private houses have outdoor generators. Very big industrial-size diesel units on concrete slabs, almost the size of small cars. Their main purpose is whole-house electricity during extended power outages during hurricanes.

    Well, perhaps what a home battery like Tesla seems to promise is OUR whole-house solution. Nothing to do with variable solar or wind power supplies, which we can't have, either.

    The battery won't last very long before going dead, but at least give us time to take all the actions we need before we lose all power. Still have light to see what we're doing (seems hurricane power outages tend to happen when it's dark outside).

    So I can see this as an emergency back-up, not a solar issue for us. And therefore the cost takes on a different safety perspective. I want to see how well this works.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    May 07, 2015 5:13 PM GMT
    ^^

    yes, it's true Art and Paulorizvi, Tesla is nothing more than a battery company. It's good at one thing, well maybe 2 - taking government subsidies and blowing hype up Wall Street's ass.

    Batteries DO NOT "power" anything, they just store power produced somewhere else (be it gas, oil, coal, solar, wind)

    In the end, the "electric" car may be just as damaging to the environment as gas cars
  • metta

    Posts: 39169

    May 08, 2015 5:02 AM GMT
    Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar

    "To provide the same 16 kilowatts of continuous power as this $3,700 Generac generator from Home Depot, a homeowner would need eight stacked Tesla batteries at a cost of $45,000 for a nine-year lease. "It's a luxury good—really cool to have—but I don't see an economic argument," said Brian Warshay, an energy-smart-technologies analyst with Bloomberg New Energy Finance."


    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-06/tesla-s-new-battery-doesn-t-work-that-well-with-solar
  • metta

    Posts: 39169

    May 08, 2015 7:35 PM GMT
    Barely a week after Tesla's Powerwall battery was announced, it's sold-out to mid-2016


    http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/week-after-teslas-powerwall-battery-announced-sold-out-mid-2016.html