Poll: Most Americans Are Now Socialist

  • metta

    Posts: 39104

    May 11, 2015 3:24 AM GMT
    Poll: Most Americans Are Now Socialist


    http://ivn.us/2015/05/06/americans-now-socialist/

    http://www.vox.com/2015/5/4/8548009/redistribution-poll
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    May 11, 2015 3:41 AM GMT
    I thought they were internetist, which is the polar opposite of socialist.
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    May 11, 2015 5:25 PM GMT
    I would think so - consider all the "socialist" things we all take for granted:

    Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, VA benefits
    State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
    Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
    US Postal Service
    Roads and Highways
    Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
    US Railway System
    Public Subways and Metro Systems
    Public Bus and Lightrail Systems
    Rest Areas on Highways
    Sidewalks
    All Government-Funded Local/State Projects
    Public Water and Sewer Services
    Public and State Universities and Colleges
    Public Primary and Secondary Schools
    Sesame Street
    Public Museums and Libraries
    Public Parks and Beaches, State and National Parks
    Public Zoos
    Unemployment Insurance
    Municipal Garbage and Recycling Services
    Treatment at Any Hospital or Clinic That Ever Received Funding From Local, State or Federal Government (pretty much all of them)
    Medical Services and Medications Created or Derived From Any Government Grant or Research Funding (again, pretty much all of them)
    Byproducts of Government Investment Such as Duct Tape and Velcro (Nazi-NASA Inventions)
    Internet, email, and networked computers [DoD's ARPANET was the basis for subsequent computer networking]
    Foodstuffs, Meats, Produce and Crops That Were Grown With, Fed With, Raised With or That Contain Inputs From Crops Grown With Government Subsidies
    Clothing Made from Crops Grown With Government Subsidies
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    May 11, 2015 5:50 PM GMT
    I only learned recently that one of my sets of great grandparents were active in the socialist movement, apparently--and I'm still currently researching this--my mom's father's father was a political activist and frequent speaker at socialist events.

    Mom's dad nearly never spoke. He was very athletic all the way through to the end of life and that's mostly all he seemed to care about. But his brother, my favorite uncle, was quite intellectual, extremely funny, and though my contact with him was limited geographically for most of my life, when I was younger I don't recall asking him about family. So I never got those stories from him either.

    His daughter was between generations of mine and my mom's, so no real friendship ever developed here and we'd lost touch with each other. So recently I found her, living on some island off Washington. So I interrogated her while she's still around so I'd have that info. I was very surprised at what I'd learned because I had no idea before that my family was ever involved directly in politics.

    So now though I'm going back somewhat before the internet to the early 1900s, I've been trying to find any speeches or notices of this relative speaking on socialism. No luck so far. But I'd imagine too that some of that was secretive back then, especially later when it gets into the Red Scare.

    I always sort of considered myself a bit of a socialist but I never really studied it. And just starting to learn more about it now that my interest has been piqued.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_socialist_movement_in_the_United_States
    Socialism in the United States began with utopian communities in the early 19th century such as the Shakers, the activist visionary Josiah Warren and intentional communities inspired on Charles Fourier. Labor activists, usually British, German or Jewish immigrants, in 1876 founded the Socialist Labor Party. The Socialist Party of America was established in 1901.
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    May 11, 2015 6:25 PM GMT
    I'd say it's a case of too many Americans being selfish than "socialist." That list you trotted out is truly ludicrous, MarathonMan; most of those* are attributes of civilization, not socialism, which usually ends up decivilizing societies, right Comrade Stalin?
    _____
    *Except for Sesame Street. icon_cool.gif
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    May 11, 2015 6:38 PM GMT
    MGINSD saidI'd say it's a case of too many Americans being selfish than "socialist." That list you trotted out is truly ludicrous, MarathonMan; most of those* are attributes of civilization, not socialism, which usually ends up decivilizing societies, right Comrade Stalin?
    _____
    *Except for Sesame Street. icon_cool.gif


    Socialism and communism are not the same. In fact what I learned from my newly found cousin and this might be one of the reasons that my grandfather hardly ever talked, is that his mother became a communist while his father remained a socialist. They split and he never spoke to or of his mother again. I never once heard reference to my grandfather's mother from his lips. Not once.

    So, while I haven't studied this in depth yet, I know those two things are not the same.

    As to that list, much of that is socialistic especially, I'd think, on a scale of Socialism/Laissez-faire Capitalism.

    Which shows very much the bullshit of the Republicans, their denying of socialism in America. Without socialism, you end "up decivilizing societies, right"...?
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    May 11, 2015 7:00 PM GMT
    Americans have been "socialists" since WW2, they're just too fucking stupid, delusional, or brainwashed to admit it
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    May 11, 2015 7:31 PM GMT
    theantijock said
    MGINSD saidI'd say it's a case of too many Americans being selfish than "socialist." That list you trotted out is truly ludicrous, MarathonMan; most of those* are attributes of civilization, not socialism, which usually ends up decivilizing societies, right Comrade Stalin?
    _____
    *Except for Sesame Street. icon_cool.gif


    Socialism and communism are not the same. In fact what I learned from my newly found cousin and this might be one of the reasons that my grandfather hardly ever talked, is that his mother became a communist while his father remained a socialist. They split and he never spoke to or of his mother again. I never once heard reference to my grandfather's mother from his lips. Not once.

    So, while I haven't studied this in depth yet, I know those two things are not the same.

    As to that list, much of that is socialistic especially, I'd think, on a scale of Socialism/Laissez-faire Capitalism.

    Which shows very much the bullshit of the Republicans, their denying of socialism in America. Without socialism, you end "up decivilizing societies, right"...?


    The differences between socialism and communism are many,* and were never part of this thread until you made them a vehicle for a gratuitous attack upon "the Republicans." icon_rolleyes.gif
    ____
    *Cf., The former/has-been/now-decrepit "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics."
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    May 11, 2015 7:32 PM GMT
    tj85016 saidAmericans have been "socialists" since WW2, they're just too fucking stupid, delusional, or brainwashed to admit it


    Thank you, Professor Gruber!

    And again, with the exception of Sesame Street, each and every item on that silly list was part of US culture before WW2, and most prior to WW1.
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    May 11, 2015 7:33 PM GMT
    MGINSD saidI'd say it's a case of too many Americans being selfish than "socialist." That list you trotted out is truly ludicrous, MarathonMan; most of those* are attributes of civilization, not socialism, which usually ends up decivilizing societies, right Comrade Stalin?
    _____
    *Except for Sesame Street. icon_cool.gif



    I think you missed his point MGINSD. In a truly capitalist society every single thing on his list would have been privatized.

    When you come up to Canada you'll get to experience a social democracy and watch capitalism in action, too. Too many in your country think you can't have both.
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    May 11, 2015 7:34 PM GMT
    MGINSD said
    tj85016 saidAmericans have been "socialists" since WW2, they're just too fucking stupid, delusional, or brainwashed to admit it


    Thank you, Professor Gruber!


    I think he's right (but not the insults part).
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    May 11, 2015 7:39 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    MGINSD saidI'd say it's a case of too many Americans being selfish than "socialist." That list you trotted out is truly ludicrous, MarathonMan; most of those* are attributes of civilization, not socialism, which usually ends up decivilizing societies, right Comrade Stalin?
    _____
    *Except for Sesame Street. icon_cool.gif



    I think you missed his point MGINSD. In a truly capitalist society every single thing on his list would have been privatized.

    When you come up to Canada you'll get to experience a social democracy and watch capitalism in action, too. Too many in your country think you can't have both.


    One of the reasons I'm returning to Canada is because I like they way they run things up there, but I'd hardly call their measured combination of "social democracy" and capitalism "socialism," and I don't think most Canadians would either. Portraying the items on that laundry list as examples of "socialism" is just another attempt to make that discredited creed more palatable. I'll stick with Lady Thatcher's assessment: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
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    May 11, 2015 8:45 PM GMT


    Yes, we do, MG. However, we don't think in extremes, which we find a great many US people do; seeing such things in black or white. Most Canadians think of such things in shades of gray.

    You see socialism as total and communistic, we don't.

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    May 11, 2015 9:14 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    Yes, we do, MG. However, we don't think in extremes, which we find a great many US people do; seeing such things in black or white. Most Canadians think of such things in shades of gray.

    You see socialism as total and communistic, we don't.


    Fair enough, and I defer to your characterization of the Canadian character, sans les Quebecois. But give me credit for being able to distinguish socialism from communism, although I believe that unless closely watched the former can devolve into the latter, per my prior posts.
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    May 11, 2015 9:22 PM GMT
    MGINSD said
    theantijock said
    MGINSD saidI'd say it's a case of too many Americans being selfish than "socialist." That list you trotted out is truly ludicrous, MarathonMan; most of those* are attributes of civilization, not socialism, which usually ends up decivilizing societies, right Comrade Stalin?
    _____
    *Except for Sesame Street. icon_cool.gif


    Socialism and communism are not the same. In fact what I learned from my newly found cousin and this might be one of the reasons that my grandfather hardly ever talked, is that his mother became a communist while his father remained a socialist. They split and he never spoke to or of his mother again. I never once heard reference to my grandfather's mother from his lips. Not once.

    So, while I haven't studied this in depth yet, I know those two things are not the same.

    As to that list, much of that is socialistic especially, I'd think, on a scale of Socialism/Laissez-faire Capitalism.

    Which shows very much the bullshit of the Republicans, their denying of socialism in America. Without socialism, you end "up decivilizing societies, right"...?


    The differences between socialism and communism are many,* and were never part of this thread until you made them a vehicle for a gratuitous attack upon "the Republicans." icon_rolleyes.gif
    ____
    *Cf., The former/has-been/now-decrepit "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics."


    Um, no. But thanx for exemplifying Typical Republican Behavior for everyone, that you would actually attempt revisionism mid-fucking-conversation. Really!

    How about that you introduced communism to a thread on socialism when you attempted degrading socialism with your snide reference to Stalinism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism
    ...Stalinist industrialization was officially designed to accelerate the development towards communism...


    I merely called you out on that. The initiating gratuitous attack was yours; I merely countered. Stop being so full of shit please. Thank you.

    poop-snathin-elephant-o.gif
    Republicans serving up a trunk load.
    Anyone for some eat and re-eat Red Scare?
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    May 11, 2015 10:06 PM GMT
    Interesting poll from a country that beats its chest in public about the free market.
    I`ll be more convinced when you get around to having a health care system like the British NHS.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    May 11, 2015 10:14 PM GMT
    Lincsbear saidInteresting poll from a country that beats its chest in public about the free market.
    I`ll be more convinced when you get around to having a health care system like the British NHS.


    "socialism" is a dirty word here in the states, so we make up some other bullshit term for what we do in it's name - it's completely delusional, but many Americans are completely delusional
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    May 11, 2015 11:00 PM GMT
    tj85016 saidAmericans have been "socialists" since WW2, they're just too fucking stupid, delusional, or brainwashed to admit it


    Actually socialism in the US took root in 1912 when the voters had to choose between three "progressives" (Wilson, Taft, Roosevelt) and one socialist (Debs) for president. All four supported legislation and constitutional amendments that set into motion a steady "progressive" movement of government towards socialism. The name "progressivism" was adopted as a means of bypassing the inherent disdain Americans had at that time for Socialism.

    Contrary to popular myth, "progressivism" has nothing to do with progress but small almost imperceptive innocuous seeming 'progressive' changes towards socialism to avoid the radical socialism that had already emerged in Europe by that time. For all purposes the objectives of progressivism are identical with Fabian socialism that originated in the UK 40 years earlier. The Fabian socialists took their name from the Roman general Fabian whose battle tactics have been called the Fabian Strategy, used by non-radical Socialists and Progressives.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_strategy

    Fabianism, (Progressivism) definitions
    1. a Of or relating to the caution and avoidance of direct confrontation typical of the Roman general Quintus Fabius Maximus.
    2. Of, relating to, or being a member of the Fabian Society, which was committed to gradual rather than revolutionary means for spreading socialist principles.
    ** (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) of, relating to, or resembling the delaying tactics of the Roman general Quintus Fabius Maximus; cautious; circumspect.
    ** Seeking victory by delay and harassment rather than by a decisive battle, as in the manner of Fabius Maximus defeating Hannibal in the Second Punic War.

    Never forget early progressive contributions to US culture.

    The first was Eugenics, supported by Winston Churchill, Margaret Sanger, sexologist Norman Haire, Theodore Roosevelt, Herbert Hoover, Wodrow Wilson, Eugene Debs, economist John Maynard Keynes, enema and cornflake freak John Harvey Kellogg, sociologist, historian, civil rights activist W. E. B. Du Bois and Socialist Leader Adolf Hitler.

    The second great contribution of Progressives to the US was the 18th amendment for the Prohibition of liquor.
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    May 12, 2015 2:19 AM GMT
    about time lol
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    May 12, 2015 2:24 AM GMT
    How far do the 1% and corporations have to leave most Americans in the dust before they come to that conclusion?

    Just today, I heard that corporations are leaving trillions of dollars overseas avoiding letting those dollars work for most Americans. Those trillions of dollars are not even going into R&D.

    - - -

    4/8/2015

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/09/1290680/-U-S-Corporations-hold-2-1-trillion-of-untaxed-profits-overseas-says-study

    - - -

    2/12/15

    American companies have about $2 trillion in overseas accounts — money they could be using to hire workers and pay dividends in the United States. But they're reluctant to do so, in part because of the way the U.S. tax system works.

    President Obama proposed some big changes in the tax code last month that would encourage U.S. companies to bring more money home. A lot of people in Washington agree with the goal, but there's sharp disagreement about how to accomplish it.

    Last month, the European Union issued a report about Amazon and the taxes it pays. The online retailer does a lot of business in Europe but its corporate tax rate is in the single digits, says Crawford Spence of the University of Warwick in England.

    "They pay very little tax here, because most of their tax is paid in Luxembourg," he says.

    And Amazon isn't alone. Big U.S. companies, including Starbucks and Apple, have pared down their tax bill by funneling revenue into tax havens like Luxembourg and Ireland. Spence says it's totally legal.

    http://www.npr.org/2015/02/12/385471616/obamas-plan-to-tax-overseas-earnings-draws-scrutiny
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    May 12, 2015 3:00 AM GMT
    Remember Jeffrey Immelt? Obama's and the Clinton's buddy, the CEO of GE???
    This ought to piss you off and make you wonder if you should be mad at GE or the fuckers lying to your saying they're going to penalize the corporations taking their money overseas.

    General Electric Avoids Taxes By Keeping $108 Billion Overseas
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/general-electric-taxes_n_2852094.html
    20 big profitable US companies paid no taxes
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101917093

    US tax rates are forcing the corporations to take their money overseas just to remain competitive. $2 trillion stashed overseas? I bet it's at least $4 trillion when you get down to the smaller companies doing the same thing. It's not just the big corporations getting their profits out of the US any way they can.
    How else can they stay in business? the smaller businesses can't pay out the bucks to buy politicians to give them tax breaks.
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    May 12, 2015 3:09 AM GMT
    bobbobbob said
    The second great contribution of Progressives to the US was the 18th amendment for the Prohibition of liquor.

    Socialism in America is a lot older than 1912. Communitarian enclaves go back to the 1840s and earlier, in places like New Harmony, Indiana and other planned communities. Socialism, in some form or other, has always been part---a minor part, sadly---of the fabric of American political ideas.

    Oh, and that Prohibition thingie? That wasn't the Progressive movement, that was the midwestern-based Populist movement (Carrie Nation was from Kansas, and the Women's Christian Temperance Union was organized in Ohio in the 1870s.) Predating the "Progressive" movement by some 40 years.
  • bobbobbob

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    May 12, 2015 5:00 AM GMT
    Sharkspeare said
    bobbobbob said
    The second great contribution of Progressives to the US was the 18th amendment for the Prohibition of liquor.

    Socialism in America is a lot older than 1912. Communitarian enclaves go back to the 1840s and earlier, in places like New Harmony, Indiana and other planned communities. Socialism, in some form or other, has always been part---a minor part, sadly---of the fabric of American political ideas.



    It's a shame you couldn't have found a better example than New Harmony- which failed in 2 years of the same ills that cause all socialist experiments to fail.

    Just two weeks ago I happened to have had Bill O'Reilly on when he was debating a socialist economist whose name I didn't catch. The first question O'Reilly asked her was the name of any socialist government that had come close to successfully eliminating poverty. She admitted there were none. If you had read Karl Marx you know that even he admitted socialism was incapable of sustaining itself without free markets. Historically there have been small "socialist experiments" that have all failed. The first large implementation of socialism was under Emperor Diocletian who, in less than 20 years nearly regulated and socialized the western empire into the dark ages. Devalued money, outrageous taxes, state licensed monopolies, production, wages and prices regulated, elimination of small businesses, food rationing, No way to leave a job without government permission, no hope of ever making more that the state allowed.

    In reality all socialism does is trade the old system of handling wealth in the hands of a few to the hands of a few in government or in good with government.

    Ironically the socialist quest to establish [i]Utopian[/i] societies is exactly what socialism always accomplishes. In Greek, 'Utopia' means "nowhere."


    Sharkspeare said Oh, and that Prohibition thingie? That wasn't the Progressive movement, that was the midwestern-based Populist movement (Carrie Nation was from Kansas, and the Women's Christian Temperance Union was organized in Ohio in the 1870s.) Predating the "Progressive" movement by some 40 years.


    I guess you either didn't read that warning I gave about watching for things I say that look prima facie wrong.... or you chose to ignore it... tsk tsk tsk.....

    I didn't say anything about the Women's Temperance Union, did I? I said "18th Amendment," didn't I? This is the Bessie Smith Lesson all over again. Here's a review of .....
    "Prohibition" a documentary by Ken Burns
    http://humanevents.com/2011/10/10/progressives-prohibition/
    Public Broadcasting Service viewers have been treated this past week to the debut of Ken Burns and Lynn Novick’s documentary “Prohibition.” The talking heads decry “the religious fundamentalist root of the prohibition argument” and ridicule hypocrites “who supported prohibition” but “didn’t believe in government spending” to enforce it. They can’t escape their politics. But they can’t escape history, either.

    People commonly think of prohibition as a conservative movement—not at all,” historian William Leuchtenburg remarks during the five-hour documentary. “It was a movement that was embraced by progressives.”

    More unequivocal on the question were the capital “P” Progressives, whose state parties endorsed national prohibition in Michigan, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, North Dakota, Utah, Oklahoma, Georgia, New Mexico, Vermont, Maine, and points beyond. “The Progressive Party,” its Ohio affiliate boasted in 1914, “is the only political party this year that stands for State and Nation-wide Prohibition.”

    Just don’t tell that to today’s progressives. Their version of history is like the drunk’s version of last night. They project their misbehavior upon everybody else. At least the alcoholic can credibly blame Jose Cuervo or Jim Beam. What’s the excuse of the politically inebriated?

    But then Wikipedia has something to say about it too.
    Prohibition
    Most progressives adopted the cause of prohibition. They saw the saloon as political corruption incarnate, and bewailed the damage done to women and children. They believed the consumption of alcohol limited mankind's potential for advancement. Progressives achieved success first with state laws then with the enactment of the Eighteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1919. The golden day did not dawn; enforcement was lax, especially in the cities where notorious criminal gangs, such as the Chicago gang of Al Capone made a crime spree based on illegal sales of liquor in speakeasies. The "experiment" (as President Hoover called it) also cost the treasury large sums of taxes and the 18th amendment was repealed by the Twenty-first Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1933.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism_in_the_United_States













  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    May 12, 2015 5:36 AM GMT
    Sharkspeare said
    bobbobbob said
    The second great contribution of Progressives to the US was the 18th amendment for the Prohibition of liquor.

    Socialism in America is a lot older than 1912. Communitarian enclaves go back to the 1840s and earlier, in places like New Harmony, Indiana and other planned communities. Socialism, in some form or other, has always been part---a minor part, sadly---of the fabric of American political ideas.


    There's another point here.
    Seeing that there's never been a socialist experiment that worked out successfully as sold to the people....
    and
    Seeing the astounding failure rate of socialist experiments...
    and
    Seeing the unforeseen consequences of the failed socialist experiments...
    and
    Seeing the current socialist experiments repeating the same mistakes that led to the unforeseen consequences of the past experiments...
    and
    Seeing how socialist programs in the United States have all been unable to fulfill their purposes efficiently, without corruption, abuses and financial wastes as well as new and horrendous unforeseen consequences....

    Why would anyone be willing to repeat the same mistakes over and over with the same people (politicians) who attain power and fortunes out of selling this idea of socialism?
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    May 12, 2015 6:47 AM GMT
    You just proved my point. Prohibition may have been a bandwagon that some Progressive parties jumped on later, but it was neither a project nor a priority of the Progressives. It antedated "progressivism" by minimum of 25 years.

    And as to New Harmony, I didn't select that as a sign of approval or disapproval---merely as an example of how deep the historical roots of socialism are in this country. Truth is, I could probably find earlier examples if I bothered. The Shakers, for example, were a sort of closed socialist society.

    Now, as to your assertion that there has never been a socialist society that ever cured poverty, or really, distributed its gains more or less equally across the masses----well, neither has capitalism, and yet we treat one with reverence and the other with scorn. i suggest to you that capitalism is not deserving of any particular reverence; it has a good deal wrong with it. And that you seem to be unaware that what you perceive to be objective choices are in fact deeply loaded.