4 of 50 unmanned cars in CA have been in accidents

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    May 11, 2015 4:14 PM GMT
    reference:
    http://gizmodo.com/self-driving-cars-are-already-getting-into-accidents-1703574538
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    May 11, 2015 5:30 PM GMT
    pellaz saidreference:
    http://gizmodo.com/self-driving-cars-are-already-getting-into-accidents-1703574538


    You beat me to it.

    I just wonder how all this is going to work out when these cars are on the road and age a bit.

    Let's say owner #1 replaces his tires with some POS such as RS-As and the second owner with the same mileage replaces his tires with something like Pilot Sports or RE-11s and then there's a 30 - 40' difference in stopping distances from 80.

    Or from warm weather/pavement with summer compounds to a cold weather period when that same car with the same summer compound tires now on 30 degree pavement.

    Or following a C7, which can stop from 70 in 128' versus something else that requires a full 200' from 70 mph. Sounds like a hell of a rear ender. The C7 is already stopped, butT the car behind is still going 35-40 mph.
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    May 11, 2015 6:55 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    pellaz saidreference:
    http://gizmodo.com/self-driving-cars-are-already-getting-into-accidents-1703574538


    You beat me to it.

    I just wonder how all this is going to work out when these cars are on the road and age a bit.

    Let's say owner #1 replaces his tires with some POS such as RS-As and the second owner with the same mileage replaces his tires with something like Pilot Sports or RE-11s and then there's a 30 - 40' difference in stopping distances from 80.

    Or from warm weather/pavement with summer compounds to a cold weather period when that same car with the same summer compound tires now on 30 degree pavement.

    Or following a C7, which can stop from 70 in 128' versus something else that requires a full 200' from 70 mph. Sounds like a hell of a rear ender. The C7 is already stopped, butT the car behind is still going 35-40 mph.

    Aren't you talking about stopping distances that apply to the car itself, independent of who or what is driving it?

    Or are you talking about the ability to take evasive measures? Like change course and even drive off the road onto the grass to avoid a collision.

    Could a computer be programmed to make that decision at avoidance, or would it stick to the road surface no matter what? I'd rather dig up some dirt and maybe have some limited damage than have a full rear ender at high speed. Just get myself the Hell out of the way.
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    May 11, 2015 10:00 PM GMT
    The fact that people are crying lame duck on a technology that could barely even be described as in the "testing" phase speaks to the downward spiral of the US. People are fine sitting in their la-z-boys and chanting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" as they hallucinate a world in which we are still the top dog in the international playing field but when somebody actually tries to do something revolutionary that could change the world in a positive way, no one even bats an eye as they break out the Louisville sluggers to bash their optimistic mentalities.

    Seriously
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    May 12, 2015 12:33 AM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    freedomisntfree said
    pellaz saidreference:
    http://gizmodo.com/self-driving-cars-are-already-getting-into-accidents-1703574538


    You beat me to it.

    I just wonder how all this is going to work out when these cars are on the road and age a bit.

    Let's say owner #1 replaces his tires with some POS such as RS-As and the second owner with the same mileage replaces his tires with something like Pilot Sports or RE-11s and then there's a 30 - 40' difference in stopping distances from 80.

    Or from warm weather/pavement with summer compounds to a cold weather period when that same car with the same summer compound tires now on 30 degree pavement.

    Or following a C7, which can stop from 70 in 128' versus something else that requires a full 200' from 70 mph. Sounds like a hell of a rear ender. The C7 is already stopped, butT the car behind is still going 35-40 mph.

    Aren't you talking about stopping distances that apply to the car itself, independent of who or what is driving it?

    Or are you talking about the ability to take evasive measures? Like change course and even drive off the road onto the grass to avoid a collision.

    Could a computer be programmed to make that decision at avoidance, or would it stick to the road surface no matter what? I'd rather dig up some dirt and maybe have some limited damage than have a full rear ender at high speed. Just get the Hell out of the way.


    Lots of variables that I'm not sure can be taken into account without a 'working' human mind to make a decision such as what you mention above. Not uncommon to see an astute, aware driver dive for the shoulder if it's clear to him/her that they're not going to be able to stop in time.

    And yes, I was talking stopping distances just for the car. Any C&D, R&T or MT road test annual will show the fairly wide variability in stopping distances. And then how bout in the rain where some tires feel like you're still on the dry and yet a few tires feel like you're on ice, once you get some miles on the tires.

    One example: many automakers use as OEM are all season (no seasons) RS-As. Ok when fresh, but you get about 10,000 miles on these and they're useless. I've had a number of new cars with them. This one though with RE-11s feels pretty much the same wet or dry and that's with a tread pattern that looks more like a DOT race tire. The OEM RE-50s were just as good.

    And then how do they account for the massive difference between a max performance summer compound tire, where I could barely move in the snow, let alone stop and then the same car with Extreme Contacts, Alpines or Blizzaks. I do this switch about every six months and its a massive massive difference. How does your computer know what tires the car ahead has?

    I remember one evening down just south of campus when some smart ass in an A6 Allroad pulled into the parking lane to try to beat me through the intersection. He couldn't do it. Tells me he had all seasons (I had Blizzaks) If my car has all seasons it wouldn't have been a contest, he would have had me. If I was on summers I wouldn't have been able to even move in the deep rutted snow. Of course, I wouldn't have been able to even get down there in the first place so it would have never happened.

    So yeah, I remain very skeptical.
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    May 12, 2015 12:35 AM GMT
    Life2Short saidThe fact that people are crying lame duck on a technology that could barely even be described as in the "testing" phase speaks to the downward spiral of the US. People are fine sitting in their la-z-boys and chanting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" as they hallucinate a world in which we are still the top dog in the international playing field but when somebody actually tries to do something revolutionary that could change the world in a positive way, no one even bats an eye as they break out the Louisville sluggers to bash their optimistic mentalities.

    Seriously


    Not being able driving my own car is not very positive.

    You, of all people on RJ, should know better and know exactly what I'm talking about.
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    May 12, 2015 1:18 AM GMT
    Self driving cars in theory? Sure! A great thing.
    But who in their right mind, even repukes, would really feel secure in that? Hell, our personal information can't even be kept safe/secure by companies.

    Are people really this bloody stupid to believe that the system that controls these vehicles is hack proof?!? After the many, MANY major data breaches we have been told of over the past couple of yrs., even a HUGE insurer such as Anthem has been breached!!! And yet some daft fools would put their lives on the line for this system? icon_eek.gificon_rolleyes.gif
  • ChicagoSteve

    Posts: 1277

    May 12, 2015 2:02 AM GMT
    One of the reasons people like cars is because THEY get to drive them, it makes you feel in control. What is the point of pushing this on society? It's just another bullshit idea of, well,we have the technology. so why not. Absolute stupidity! I hope it is a huge failure.
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    May 12, 2015 2:41 AM GMT
    Self driving cars are definitely something that's down the road. For now, the new safety features are a nice start.
    Anyone that thinks these things are bad is a total nut job.
    Back up cameras, a nice start. Lane assist, very big step forward. Self stopping cars when an eminent crash ahead is upon you...
    Life saving.

    None of that is worth saying,, but I just enjoy driving my car.
    Why do I say this.. because I have one of those cars.
    Will it drive itself. No.
    Do I want it to drive itself. NO.
    Adaptive Cruise, feels pretty close, but that's a feature for the highway.
    Will it park itself.. Almost, and yes,, tonight at Home Depot (perpendicular park) you just have to use the gas and brake to assist.
    The beeper does the rest and I do mean,, RIGHT down the fucking CENTER! Better than you and your 20/20 vision.

    It's coming. Like it or not.
    Anytime soon. Nah....

    but.. it's coming
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    May 12, 2015 3:27 AM GMT
    musclefetish saidSelf driving cars in theory? Sure! A great thing.
    But who in their right mind, even repukes, would really feel secure in that? Hell, our personal information can't even be kept safe/secure by companies.

    Are people really this bloody stupid to believe that the system that controls these vehicles is hack proof?!? After the many, MANY major data breaches we have been told of over the past couple of yrs., even a HUGE insurer such as Anthem has been breached!!! And yet some daft fools would put their lives on the line for this system? icon_eek.gificon_rolleyes.gif


    "even repukes"

    I thought Democraps such as yourself would enjoy that aspect of total control?
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    May 12, 2015 1:07 PM GMT
    They covered this people. All accidents with over 1 million miles between them were not the auto cars fualt. Plus the data from all 4 crashes will help to create algorithms that will help keep this sort of thing from happening.
    Stop acting like a bunch of Luddites, jeeze
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    May 12, 2015 2:17 PM GMT
    SamSellers saidThey covered this people. All accidents with over 1 million miles between them were not the auto cars fualt. Plus the data from all 4 crashes will help to create algorithms that will help keep this sort of thing from happening.
    Stop acting like a bunch of Luddites, jeeze


    Well, Jeeze Luddite, they can not account for some of things I brought up above.
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    May 12, 2015 3:00 PM GMT
    I have a notion that soon the amount of fuel that each driver can use in a month is going to be rationed and severely limited to control global warming. So better to get a bike and join the National Bike Challenge, which is growing every day and is now over 75,000 riders strong.
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    May 12, 2015 3:48 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    SamSellers saidThey covered this people. All accidents with over 1 million miles between them were not the auto cars fualt. Plus the data from all 4 crashes will help to create algorithms that will help keep this sort of thing from happening.
    Stop acting like a bunch of Luddites, jeeze


    Well, Jeeze Luddite, they can not account for some of things I brought up above.

    We will see. That's why they have tests. Jets are run at 90% automatic pilot. And most issues are proven to be human error. We take almost a second to react in most cases. That's slow.
    Give the tech time to mature. It and you are in no rush.
    BTW I driveva 43 yo bug. The only computer chip in my car is in the radio. And I think this new innovation will be a good thing. It'll cut down on idiot decisions and tempertantrums in traffic.
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    May 12, 2015 4:26 PM GMT
    SamSellers said
    freedomisntfree said
    SamSellers saidThey covered this people. All accidents with over 1 million miles between them were not the auto cars fualt. Plus the data from all 4 crashes will help to create algorithms that will help keep this sort of thing from happening.
    Stop acting like a bunch of Luddites, jeeze


    Well, Jeeze Luddite, they can not account for some of things I brought up above.

    We will see. That's why they have tests. Jets are run at 90% automatic pilot. And most issues are proven to be human error. We take almost a second to react in most cases. That's slow.
    Give the tech time to mature. It and you are in no rush.
    BTW I driveva 43 yo bug. The only computer chip in my car is in the radio. And I think this new innovation will be a good thing. It'll cut down on idiot decisions and tempertantrums in traffic.


    "We take almost a second to react in most cases. That's slow. "

    I'm even leaving that variable out for now and just talking about the equipment.

    As I said

    "Lots of variables that I'm not sure can be taken into account without a 'working' human mind to make a decision such as what you mention above. Not uncommon to see an astute, aware driver dive for the shoulder if it's clear to him/her that they're not going to be able to stop in time.

    And yes, I was talking stopping distances just for the car. Any C&D, R&T or MT road test annual will show the fairly wide variability in stopping distances. And then how bout in the rain where some tires feel like you're still on the dry and yet a few tires feel like you're on ice, once you get some miles on the tires.

    One example: many automakers use as OEM are all season (no seasons) RS-As. Ok when fresh, but you get about 10,000 miles on these and they're useless. I've had a number of new cars with them. This one though with RE-11s feels pretty much the same wet or dry and that's with a tread pattern that looks more like a DOT race tire. The OEM RE-50s were just as good.

    And then how do they account for the massive difference between a max performance summer compound tire, where I could barely move in the snow, let alone stop and then the same car with Extreme Contacts, Alpines or Blizzaks. I do this switch about every six months and its a massive massive difference. How does your computer know what tires the car ahead has?

    I remember one evening down just south of campus when some smart ass in an A6 Allroad pulled into the parking lane to try to beat me through the intersection. He couldn't do it. Tells me he had all seasons (I had Blizzaks) If my car has all seasons it wouldn't have been a contest, he would have had me. If I was on summers I wouldn't have been able to even move in the deep rutted snow. Of course, I wouldn't have been able to even get down there in the first place so it would have never happened.

    So yeah, I remain very skeptical."
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    May 12, 2015 5:04 PM GMT
    SamSellers said
    freedomisntfree said
    SamSellers saidThey covered this people. All accidents with over 1 million miles between them were not the auto cars fualt. Plus the data from all 4 crashes will help to create algorithms that will help keep this sort of thing from happening.
    Stop acting like a bunch of Luddites, jeeze


    Well, Jeeze Luddite, they can not account for some of things I brought up above.

    We will see. That's why they have tests. Jets are run at 90% automatic pilot. And most issues are proven to be human error. We take almost a second to react in most cases. That's slow.
    Give the tech time to mature. It and you are in no rush.
    BTW I drive a 43 yo bug. The only computer chip in my car is in the radio. And I think this new innovation will be a good thing. It'll cut down on idiot decisions and tempertantrums in traffic.



    As I said

    "Lots of variables that I'm not sure can be taken into account without a 'working' human mind to make a decision such as what you mention above. Not uncommon to see an astute, aware driver dive for the shoulder if it's clear to him/her that they're not going to be able to stop in time.

    And yes, I was talking stopping distances just for the car. Any C&D, R&T or MT road test annual will show the fairly wide variability in stopping distances. And then how bout in the rain where some tires feel like you're still on the dry and yet a few tires feel like you're on ice, once you get some miles on the tires.

    One example: many automakers use as OEM are all season (no seasons) RS-As. Ok when fresh, but you get about 10,000 miles on these and they're useless. I've had a number of new cars with them. This one though with RE-11s feels pretty much the same wet or dry and that's with a tread pattern that looks more like a DOT race tire. The OEM RE-50s were just as good.

    And then how do they account for the massive difference between a max performance summer compound tire, where I could barely move in the snow, let alone stop and then the same car with Extreme Contacts, Alpines or Blizzaks. I do this switch about every six months and its a massive massive difference. How does your computer know what tires the car ahead has?

    I remember one evening down just south of campus when some smart ass in an A6 Allroad pulled into the parking lane to try to beat me through the intersection. He couldn't do it. Tells me he had all seasons (I had Blizzaks) If my car has all seasons it wouldn't have been a contest, he would have had me. If I was on summers I wouldn't have been able to even move in the deep rutted snow. Of course, I wouldn't have been able to even get down there in the first place so it would have never happened.

    So yeah, I remain very skeptical."
  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    May 12, 2015 7:22 PM GMT
    There are too many variable and dynamic situations that a computer, even if EVERY other car was automatic driving, cannot account for.

    Is that object solid or a cardboard box? Is there a cat inside or a baby or is it empty? Is that an oil spill from a just overturned truck? Did an 18 wheeler tire just blowout? Should we drive over the shred or swerve at 75mph?

    These are literally decisions that are life or death and require a split second analysis and judgment call. IF this is going to come to fruition, programmers will HAVE to design an algorithm that chooses whether to hit the 6 year old chasing the ball who just darted out, or to risk sacrificing the car and its occupants by slamming the car into a nearby parked car because brakes cannot stop in time. These are decisions ONLY a human can make, and each human SHOULD be allowed to make that decision.

    If I'm driving and a kid darts out, I'm crashing my car into a parked car and hoping for the best. If my mother, boyfriend, and neighbor are in the car and we're coming from a nice dinner, I'm slamming on the brakes and hoping little Timmy bounces and has strong bones. I'm not sacrificing my loved ones for 1 little boy. But myself? Of course I would sacrifice myself.

    A COMPUTER/ALGORITHM, NO MATTER HOW ADVANCED, CANNOT MAKE AND SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE LIFE OR DEATH DECISIONS.

    Self driving cars are the stupidest idea I've ever heard of. It's a wanna-be Jetsons with moral implications most have yet to even consider.

    Next.
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    May 12, 2015 7:40 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    SamSellers said
    freedomisntfree said
    SamSellers saidThey covered this people. All accidents with over 1 million miles between them were not the auto cars fualt. Plus the data from all 4 crashes will help to create algorithms that will help keep this sort of thing from happening.
    Stop acting like a bunch of Luddites, jeeze


    Well, Jeeze Luddite, they can not account for some of things I brought up above.

    We will see. That's why they have tests. Jets are run at 90% automatic pilot. And most issues are proven to be human error. We take almost a second to react in most cases. That's slow.
    Give the tech time to mature. It and you are in no rush.
    BTW I drive a 43 yo bug. The only computer chip in my car is in the radio. And I think this new innovation will be a good thing. It'll cut down on idiot decisions and tempertantrums in traffic.



    As I said

    "Lots of variables that I'm not sure can be taken into account without a 'working' human mind to make a decision such as what you mention above. Not uncommon to see an astute, aware driver dive for the shoulder if it's clear to him/her that they're not going to be able to stop in time.

    And yes, I was talking stopping distances just for the car. Any C&D, R&T or MT road test annual will show the fairly wide variability in stopping distances. And then how bout in the rain where some tires feel like you're still on the dry and yet a few tires feel like you're on ice, once you get some miles on the tires.

    One example: many automakers use as OEM are all season (no seasons) RS-As. Ok when fresh, but you get about 10,000 miles on these and they're useless. I've had a number of new cars with them. This one though with RE-11s feels pretty much the same wet or dry and that's with a tread pattern that looks more like a DOT race tire. The OEM RE-50s were just as good.

    And then how do they account for the massive difference between a max performance summer compound tire, where I could barely move in the snow, let alone stop and then the same car with Extreme Contacts, Alpines or Blizzaks. I do this switch about every six months and its a massive massive difference. How does your computer know what tires the car ahead has?

    I remember one evening down just south of campus when some smart ass in an A6 Allroad pulled into the parking lane to try to beat me through the intersection. He couldn't do it. Tells me he had all seasons (I had Blizzaks) If my car has all seasons it wouldn't have been a contest, he would have had me. If I was on summers I wouldn't have been able to even move in the deep rutted snow. Of course, I wouldn't have been able to even get down there in the first place so it would have never happened.

    So yeah, I remain very skeptical."


    We will see. I know they have no intention of eliminating the driver completely. If I were to make a guess it would end up a highway only feature. As the highways do eliminate the Random pedestrian issue for the most part.
    Have a good one folks.
    Happy driving
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    May 12, 2015 9:19 PM GMT
    SamSellers said
    freedomisntfree said
    SamSellers said
    freedomisntfree said
    SamSellers saidThey covered this people. All accidents with over 1 million miles between them were not the auto cars fualt. Plus the data from all 4 crashes will help to create algorithms that will help keep this sort of thing from happening.
    Stop acting like a bunch of Luddites, jeeze


    Well, Jeeze Luddite, they can not account for some of things I brought up above.

    We will see. That's why they have tests. Jets are run at 90% automatic pilot. And most issues are proven to be human error. We take almost a second to react in most cases. That's slow.
    Give the tech time to mature. It and you are in no rush.
    BTW I drive a 43 yo bug. The only computer chip in my car is in the radio. And I think this new innovation will be a good thing. It'll cut down on idiot decisions and tempertantrums in traffic.



    As I said

    "Lots of variables that I'm not sure can be taken into account without a 'working' human mind to make a decision such as what you mention above. Not uncommon to see an astute, aware driver dive for the shoulder if it's clear to him/her that they're not going to be able to stop in time.

    And yes, I was talking stopping distances just for the car. Any C&D, R&T or MT road test annual will show the fairly wide variability in stopping distances. And then how bout in the rain where some tires feel like you're still on the dry and yet a few tires feel like you're on ice, once you get some miles on the tires.

    One example: many automakers use as OEM are all season (no seasons) RS-As. Ok when fresh, but you get about 10,000 miles on these and they're useless. I've had a number of new cars with them. This one though with RE-11s feels pretty much the same wet or dry and that's with a tread pattern that looks more like a DOT race tire. The OEM RE-50s were just as good.

    And then how do they account for the massive difference between a max performance summer compound tire, where I could barely move in the snow, let alone stop and then the same car with Extreme Contacts, Alpines or Blizzaks. I do this switch about every six months and its a massive massive difference. How does your computer know what tires the car ahead has?

    I remember one evening down just south of campus when some smart ass in an A6 Allroad pulled into the parking lane to try to beat me through the intersection. He couldn't do it. Tells me he had all seasons (I had Blizzaks) If my car has all seasons it wouldn't have been a contest, he would have had me. If I was on summers I wouldn't have been able to even move in the deep rutted snow. Of course, I wouldn't have been able to even get down there in the first place so it would have never happened.

    So yeah, I remain very skeptical."


    We will see. I know they have no intention of eliminating the driver completely. If I were to make a guess it would end up a highway only feature. As the highways do eliminate the Random pedestrian issue for the most part.
    Have a good one folks.
    Happy driving


    I've done 40 to 45 cross country trips by car, and I'll tell ya that for crossing Kansas or Oklahomo, etc., I just might be tempted to use something like this.
  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    May 12, 2015 9:28 PM GMT
    Here is the fundamental problem:

    We have not reached the singularity and computers, while they can PROCESS more than us on pre-programmed algorithms, currently CANNOT come anywhere near human creativity and ingenuity (i.e., ability to adapt to new data and an otherwise unforeseen situation). That machine in human brains, even "retarded" human brains, has evolved for hundreds of thousands of years through the process of evolution and a computer is essentially as smart as an ant in that regard.

    A f-ing algorithm cannot make life or death judgment calls with the level of sophistication with which even baser human minds can. Again, go back to the person in the road scenario where either (1) the brakes are applied but the person is hit at high impact or (2) the car is swerved into a parked car nearby or other obstacle. Either scenario necessarily risks injury to at least 1 human. Is the algorithm going to factor how many people are in the car, or their net worth, or social standing, and compare that against an average exemplar human and do a cost-benefit analysis to see whether the decision is to risk the pedestrian or the car occupants?

    That's something we can all do in a split second. Taking that control away from a human is not something a computer can do 'better' in any normative sense. Computers process, humans input. Don't take away human input in driving. COMPUTERS CAN'T MAKE THOSE UNCOMMON LIFE OR DEATH DECISIONS.
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    May 13, 2015 4:01 AM GMT
    ChicagoSteve saidOne of the reasons people like cars is because THEY get to drive them, it makes you feel in control. What is the point of pushing this on society? It's just another bullshit idea of, well,we have the technology. so why not. Absolute stupidity! I hope it is a huge failure.


    Clearly I am the market that Google is building these cars for as I hate driving myself around.
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    May 13, 2015 5:48 AM GMT
    A liberal utopia, one in which only agents of the State know how to shoot guns and drive cars. I'm sure all of these self-driven cars will be able to be taken control over by the police or NSA. Can kill people off and blame a technical defect. Bloodily brilliant.

    I hope people come to their senses and nip this in the bud.
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    May 13, 2015 12:02 PM GMT
    KJSharp saidA liberal utopia, one in which only agents of the State know how to shoot guns and drive cars. I'm sure all of these self-driven cars will be able to be taken control over by the police or NSA. Can kill people off and blame a technical defect. Bloodily brilliant.

    I hope people come to their senses and nip this in the bud.


    I have a solution out in the garage that I very much enjoy driving, but I Imagine these will be banned too.

    photo 78330056-9f2b-48da-bc29-85dfefb23385.jpg
  • LJay

    Posts: 11612

    May 13, 2015 2:41 PM GMT
    Thanks, Sam.

    Per google news, the accidents were due to human error.
  • Svnw688

    Posts: 3350

    May 13, 2015 5:36 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    KJSharp saidA liberal utopia, one in which only agents of the State know how to shoot guns and drive cars. I'm sure all of these self-driven cars will be able to be taken control over by the police or NSA. Can kill people off and blame a technical defect. Bloodily brilliant.

    I hope people come to their senses and nip this in the bud.


    I have a solution out in the garage that I very much enjoy driving, but I Imagine these will be banned too.

    photo 78330056-9f2b-48da-bc29-85dfefb23385.jpg


    Nice! icon_cool.gif