What we've always really known - the US, the UK and Saudi Arabia created ISIS and Al Qaeda

  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    May 24, 2015 7:06 AM GMT
    http://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/2012-defense-intelligence-agency-document-west-will-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/cancer-modern-capitalism-1323585268

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html?_r=1

    it all makes sense considering all the nonsense bullshit in the Middle East

    and some in the US want to spend money and lives participating in this fake crap - right
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    May 24, 2015 7:22 AM GMT
    Thanks for posting; there was a lot of interesting stuff there. I'm not reading at my best at the moment, but I get the impression that the sources would all agree that it was a combination of cynical machination and rank incompetence that led us to this mess, though in what proportion varies somewhat from one outlet to the next. As usual I lean toward the latter, though I suspect you might disagree based on your phrasing.

    Still, seeing this addressed is less unnerving than seeing it ignored altogether. For now, though, on to the partisan bickering...
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    May 24, 2015 7:26 AM GMT
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-23/secret-pentagon-report-reveals-us-created-isis-tool-overthrow-syrias-president-assad

    here's more evidence Phil - a ton of it (there are many highlighted links to various media sources)

    if you don't think ISIS and Al Qaeda were created by the West and the Saudi's for a purpose, you're either gullible, naïve, or just plain stupid

    and now these idiot Republicans are making war with ISIS almost part of their platform - some suckers will believe them and volunteer their kids for war
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    May 24, 2015 7:34 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidhttp://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-23/secret-pentagon-report-reveals-us-created-isis-tool-overthrow-syrias-president-assad

    here's more evidence Phil - a ton of it (there are many highlighted links to various media sources)

    if you don't think ISIS and Al Qaeda were created by the West and the Saudi's for a purpose, your either gullible, naïve, or just plain stupid

    and now these idiot Republicans are making war with ISIS almost part of their platform - some suckers will believe them and volunteer their kids for war


    I won't debate the accusation of stupidity, *but* the idea that a federal government which fucks up

    everything

    it

    touches

    would somehow achieve flawless execution with perfect foresight in

    just

    this

    one

    project.

    Call it what you will, but I will never bank everything on the reliable and unfailing competence of our government, including its dark echelons.

    Edit: Another good read. We might not be as far apart on this as I thought at first. The idea again seems to be that the Pentagon did all the things that would obviously lead to a result like ISIS, with an attitude somewhere between "What could go wrong?" and "Who's going to stop us anyway?".

    I think one thing I misunderstood in your OP, TJ, was the phrase "fake crap". If by that you mean a disaster that didn't need to happen in the first place, being used to spawn future disasters, each justifying participation in the next (and each covering up the creation of the next) so that dog-only-knows-how-many crooks and psychopaths can each take their cut of the stream of billions of dollars worth of weaponry and troops being fed into the incompetence grinder until the middle east implodes and takes the rest of the human race (except ostensibly the audacious oligarchs in their underground bunkers) with it, then we're basically on the same page.
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    May 24, 2015 10:40 AM GMT
    The Islamist extremism we see today in ISIS (and AQ) has its roots in Wahhabism, which is the ultraconservative branch Sunni Islam founded in Saudi Arabia. During the Cold War the West (particularly the US) encouraged the rise of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia as a means of keeping communism out of that region.

    800px-Arrival_ceremony_welcoming_King_Fa

    Similarly, Islamists fighters in Afghanistan were encouraged, trained, equipped and augmented by the US in order to fight the Russians after they invaded that country.

    4eZUOn5.jpg

    Sadly, the US (and the West generally), in its fight against communism, unwittingly created much of today's Islamist extremism.

    Furthermore, Bush's invasion of Iraq resulted in the disbandment of the Iraqi armed forces by US decree, which left a lot of highly trained and very skilled Iraqi military commanders unemployed and pissed off. Guess who are (or have been) some of the most successful commanders of the ISIS forces?

    CB6dcq_WYAAGhOP.jpg:large


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    May 24, 2015 1:41 PM GMT
    Liberals, your rewrite of history is faulty.

    The Iraq mess was caused by Europeans after WW1:

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/disintegration-iraqi-state-has-its-roots-world-war-i-180951793/?no-ist
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    May 24, 2015 1:48 PM GMT
    mx5guynj saidLiberals, your rewrite of history is faulty.

    The Iraq mess was caused by Europeans after WW1:

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/disintegration-iraqi-state-has-its-roots-world-war-i-180951793/?no-ist


    What next, the Boston Tea Party? We are talking about recent (i.e. relevant) history, not stuff that happened 100 years ago, in supposedly less enlightened times.
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    May 24, 2015 3:26 PM GMT
    oh gods another war, because the last one didnt quite work:

    199ptlvrxwmy3jpg.jpg
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    May 24, 2015 3:32 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    mx5guynj saidLiberals, your rewrite of history is faulty.

    The Iraq mess was caused by Europeans after WW1:

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/disintegration-iraqi-state-has-its-roots-world-war-i-180951793/?no-ist


    What next, the Boston Tea Party? We are talking about recent (i.e. relevant) history, not stuff that happened 100 years ago, in supposedly less enlightened times.


    Now, now, ExMil, no ex post facto timelines, please! Besides, WWI ended less than 100 years ago and is highly relevant to this issue, and it would be intellectually dishonest to ignore what came out of it in relation to the mess that is the ME today.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14372

    May 24, 2015 4:07 PM GMT
    MGINSD said
    Ex_Mil8 said
    mx5guynj saidLiberals, your rewrite of history is faulty.

    The Iraq mess was caused by Europeans after WW1:

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/disintegration-iraqi-state-has-its-roots-world-war-i-180951793/?no-ist


    What next, the Boston Tea Party? We are talking about recent (i.e. relevant) history, not stuff that happened 100 years ago, in supposedly less enlightened times.


    Now, now, ExMil, no ex post facto timelines, please! Besides, WWI ended less than 100 years ago and is highly relevant to this issue, and it would be intellectually dishonest to ignore what came out of it in relation to the mess that is the ME today.
    You are trying to educate an extremist liberal henicon_question.gif That must be a very Herculaneum task to implement.
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    May 24, 2015 4:07 PM GMT
    MGINSD said
    Now, now, ExMil, no ex post facto timelines, please! Besides, WWI ended less than 100 years ago and is highly relevant to this issue, and it would be intellectually dishonest to ignore what came out of it in relation to the mess that is the ME today.


    It is certainly 'highly relevant' to the avoidance of addressing more recent and more relevant political events, I'll give you that.

    Meanwhile, standby for Bob3 weighing-in with an essay on the eighteenth-century reformist/revivalist movement for sociomoral reconstruction of society founded by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and a diatribe from pouncer telling us how it is all Israel's fault.
  • madsexy

    Posts: 4843

    May 24, 2015 4:09 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    mx5guynj saidLiberals, your rewrite of history is faulty.

    The Iraq mess was caused by Europeans after WW1:

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/disintegration-iraqi-state-has-its-roots-world-war-i-180951793/?no-ist


    What next, the Boston Tea Party? We are talking about recent (i.e. relevant) history, not stuff that happened 100 years ago, in supposedly less enlightened times.

    Any history is relevant if it had an affect or none of it is - you can't arbitrarily draw a line and say - 'before this nothing mattered on this topic' - unless that like is at the Big Bang (or Creation, depending on what you believe).
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    May 24, 2015 4:19 PM GMT
    America has always been up to no good. For centuries. Nothing new just in modern times. It's a shame.
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    May 24, 2015 4:20 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidYou are trying to educate an extremist liberal henicon_question.gif That must be a very Herculaneum task to implement.


    You might benefit from a bit of education yourself, Rob. Instead of parroting, 'Hapless Hillary ho' all day, try looking up the difference between the noun 'Herculaneum' and the adjective 'herculean'.

  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    May 24, 2015 5:53 PM GMT
    I figured by the title of this thread it was going to be about blaming blaming blaming people for anything everything and something by utilizing a simplified, biased and cherry picked version of history facts and reason by people who aren't concerned about seeking solutions for problems as long as they can use their warped perceptions of reality to villianize and demonize their own preferred imaginary boogey men.

    It accomplishes nothing except giving the people involved in it a sense of smug self righteousness as they point at a problem they barely comprehend and yell, "SEE!!!! They did it! It's their fault! THEY'RE EVIL!!!"

    Then they sit back, fold their arms and do nothing to solve problems after they've invented someone else to blame for the problem.

    Everyone does it to some degree and it's not restricted to one political party, religion, sports team or philosophy more than the other.

    At my business employees who do this this are the ones who get fired or quit the most often. They disrupt any sense of teamwork and cooperation to solve problems by creating false issues about who to blame for anything that goes wrong rather than pitching in to find solutions.

    It goes all the way back before the Umayyad, Abbasid, Mamluk, and Ottoman caliphates to the first world war and its aftermath of European attempts at establishing self governing nations where none had existed in 12 centuries because of the succession of caliphates which is being repeated now in 2015.
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    May 24, 2015 6:44 PM GMT
    ^
    I don't disagree with you as far as apportioning blame is concerned Bob. Much of it could not have been foreseen and was an unintended consequence of other preoccupations (such as the Cold War). The inadvisability of the whole Iraq War notwithstanding; the disbanding of the Iraqi armed forces could have been handled better and it is worthy of note that anyone involved in implementing that process (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bremer) seems to have denied they were ever responsible for the decision. Considering the billions of dollars that were thrown at Iraq, it would not have been that difficult to give the Iraqi commanders a dignified exit and a decent pension, which might have kept them out of mischief.

    I speak as someone who started his career as a 'Cold War warrior' and ended it having done several deployments in the Middle East and Afghanistan, something I could never have envisaged when I joined up.
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    May 24, 2015 7:27 PM GMT
    Looking back it took a Sadam type regime to create any stability in that region and it was a mistake to take him out. It takes brutal folks to deal with brutal folks and since we don't have the resolve to do that we need to get the hell out of there. Nation security would better be served dealing with our internal problems.
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    May 24, 2015 8:29 PM GMT
    Taking out Saddam was Bushh/cheney incometence. arabs been killing each othher for centuries. not our fight.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    May 24, 2015 8:57 PM GMT
    urrare saidTaking out Saddam was Bushh/cheney incompetence. Arabs been killing each other for centuries. not our fight.


    ^^^
    That's pretty much true throughout their history. Outside of Iran's sham democratic government dominated by Ayatollahs, Yassir Arafat of the PLO I'm hard pressed to to think of a change of secular leaders that has been a nonviolent transition. Most have involved overthrows with abdication, assassination or exile of one bloody autocrat for one just as bloody.
  • wild_sky360

    Posts: 1492

    May 25, 2015 3:22 AM GMT
    Brutal Whabbist regime(s)are our allies because for the moment, they continue to support US dollar hegemony. While there certainly is a degree of sectarian animosity thrown into the mix, the Shia...aka the mortal enemies of our allies are primarily economic competitors. Who will get their natural gas piped to hungry markets or liquified at ports? It's not going to happen in brutally ravaged war zones.

    The greatly feared Shia crescent (of peaceful cohesion) is being turned into an arc of chaos...taken off the market with the use of fanatics and merceneries. The many millions of lives lost and destroyed in this medieval geopolitical calculation were never really part of the calculation...just a nice little side effect.

    p.s. to earlier posts
    WWI was also about destroying economic competitors, so in my analysis it is very relevant to this situation. The Anglo West has always seen Germany and Russia as nations to be kept either in chaos, in rubble, or under thumb.

    What's happening in the Middle East now is shaping into another world war by proxy involving Russia/China/Iran vs The West and our Gulf vassals.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    May 25, 2015 3:53 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidThe Islamist extremism we see today in ISIS (and AQ) has its roots in Wahhabism, which is the ultraconservative branch Sunni Islam founded in Saudi Arabia. During the Cold War the West (particularly the US) encouraged the rise of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia as a means of keeping communism out of that region.

    Yes, but it's not limited to that. Already in the late 1920s began the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood (not Wahabi).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

    Also predating Wahab were the Khawarij, the al-Murabitun (utilizing the teachings of Ibn Yasin), The al-Muwwahidun (Ibn Tumart) and others.

    Since the Iranian Revolution in 1979, we've also seen the rise of Shia groups (e.g. Hizbullah).
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14372

    May 25, 2015 1:37 PM GMT
    TribalCause saidAmerica has always been up to no good. For centuries. Nothing new just in modern times. It's a shame.
    The US isn't the only one, the UK, Russia, Japan, and now China are also equally guilty of imperialism.