How do our communities turn Gay Marriage, simply into Marriage?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 27, 2015 6:28 AM GMT
    In a perfect world, Marriage Equlity would simply mean marriage including same sex couples. But this is not how it will be. The term Gay Marriage has been coined, and this is how our marriage system will be known as, GAY MARRIAGE, A GAY WEDDING.

    So how can this be turned around in time, from a two tired marriage system, and simply into marriage?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 27, 2015 1:28 PM GMT
    your self:
    your marriage is as important (even better) than the one your parents had or wanted to have.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14336

    Jun 27, 2015 1:43 PM GMT
    In due time this will eventually happen. Marriage will simply mean marriage. However this is going to take time.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 27, 2015 3:16 PM GMT
    A little time as mixed race marriage became marrige
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    Jun 27, 2015 3:16 PM GMT
    The certificate of marriage issued to me by the District of Columbia is a marriage certificate not a certificate of gay marriage or certificate of same sex marriage.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4862

    Jun 27, 2015 3:16 PM GMT
    Good point. I hope that before too much longer, it will be just marriage.

    I am exceedingly irked by those who assert that they support traditional marriage as if those of us who support same-sex marriage did not also support "traditional" marriage. It would make more sense if they stated that they support only "traditional" marriage, whatever that is. It is also irksome that some say that marriage is between one man and one woman. Of course it it, but it is not only between one man and one woman. I suggest objecting whenever we hear such statements.

    It is not as though the Bible actually supports only marriage between one man and one women. There are plenty of examples of polygamous marriage in the Bible and there is no place in the Bible that rejects polygamous marriages. St. Paul wrote that a bishop shall be the husband of only one wife, but there is no implication that that applies to anyone except a bishop nor is Paul always considered to be infallible. However, contrary to what fundamentalists Christians say, doctrine has never been determined by the Bible alone, but rather, by the Bible, tradition, and experience whether they admit it or not. It is tradition, not the Bible, that has rejected polygamous marriages, and because doctrine is determined by the Bible, tradition, and reason, doctrine can and does change. Those of us who are very familiar with the Bible can easily point out to changes in doctrine which have been driven by changing tradition and reason.

    Jesus rejects divorce, but the fundamentalist don't seem to push to make divorce illegal.
  • jeepguySD

    Posts: 651

    Jun 27, 2015 3:31 PM GMT
    It will take time and visible examples of solid, loving, successful marriages. As more neighborhoods see examples of married gay couples, it will no longer seem alien. Then marriage will just be marriage.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4862

    Jun 27, 2015 4:07 PM GMT
    jeepguySD saidIt will take time and visible examples of solid, loving, successful marriages. As more neighborhoods see examples of married gay couples, it will no longer seem alien. Then marriage will just be marriage.


    For many people, yes, but some will always reject same-sex marriage.
  • jeepguySD

    Posts: 651

    Jun 27, 2015 4:12 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    jeepguySD saidIt will take time and visible examples of solid, loving, successful marriages. As more neighborhoods see examples of married gay couples, it will no longer seem alien. Then marriage will just be marriage.


    For many people, yes, but some will always reject same-sex marriage.


    Yes, that is almost certainly true. Just as with racism, and other forms of bigotry, homophobia will always be with us, but I believe they will be limited to an ever shrinking minority.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 27, 2015 4:23 PM GMT
    Time is definitely the answer as already mentioned.

    I'd mention some mechanics within that: it's not just time to allow society room to grow comfortable but for us to become comfortable in this newly accepted skin. We have a lot to learn about this. To learn about ourselves. We've not had these supporting, validating structures in our lives up until this moment.

    So while this is just a stepping stone, it's a huge step.

    I mentioned many, many posts ago that we shouldn't refer to gay marriage but to marriage for gay people. My complaint was how news style compressed expression to fit a headline which altered meaning. Now we've that label stuck to it.

    But this goes beyond that. Gay sex. Ya still hear that even on this forum. We call it just sex now.

    Earlier on there might have been some utility in differentiating. We wanted to have what they have. But now that we have what they have (and not that the job of gaining civil rights is completed, far from) there will be opportunity to instead of differentiating ourselves as the have nots, we'll be more inclined to associate ourselves with the haves, further creating change to our collective gay (haha) psyche.

    It's gonna take time a whole lotta precious time
    It's gonna take patience and time mmm to do it to do it
    To do it to do it to do it to do it right child
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 27, 2015 5:52 PM GMT
    When everyone figures out that gay marriage is just as miserable as marriage, then it will simply be known as marriage.

    What an easy question.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 27, 2015 8:31 PM GMT

    So how can this be turned around in time, from a two tired marriage system, and simply into marriage?[/quote]

    The more gays get married the more it normal it will seem t everyone. Over time it will become simply marriage. The same thing happened when they allowed interracial wedding. At first most of the country (US) did agree or think it was real but over time everyone accepted it.
    Same thing will happen here.The biggest hurdle was getting it recognized and part of the law. The rest will come pretty quickly.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 28, 2015 4:36 AM GMT
    "We're getting married" Nobody says "we're getting gay married".
    "My partner". Nobody says, "my gay partner".
    "My Husband". We won't be saying "my gay husband."

    So the answer is really more on us and how we describe it to the world.
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    Jun 28, 2015 12:47 PM GMT
    jeepguySD saidIt will take time and visible examples of solid, loving, successful marriages. As more neighborhoods see examples of married gay couples, it will no longer seem alien. Then marriage will just be marriage.


    This.

    AS something that had to be fought for, not taken for granted, we may take marriage more seriously than straights have been doing lately.
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    Jun 28, 2015 1:01 PM GMT
    LOL....I couldn't be happier that we, the same tax paying citizenry, finally have the same rights as the rest!

    But there is a small part of me that almost wants our marriage to stand out from the breeder population. I want this in all of the religious right wing repukes's faces. I want them to know that we have the EXACT same benefits of their once morally superior cult(s).

    I know that seems vindictive. I make no apologies for it. I really want our triumph to be rubbed in EVERY objector's face. And when my time comes to get married, I will take out a HUGE wedding announcement in the NYT like my family members have done over the yrs. I really want EVERY religious repuke to be annoyed, "insulted", to feel not so morally superior any longer. I want them to face the fact that they are just small.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14336

    Jun 28, 2015 1:25 PM GMT
    Musclefetish saidLOL....I couldn't be happier that we, the same tax paying citizenry, finally have the same rights as the rest!

    But there is a small part of me that almost wants our marriage to stand out from the breeder population. I want this in all of the religious right wing repukes's faces. I want them to know that we have the EXACT same benefits of their once morally superior cult(s).

    I know that seems vindictive. I make no apologies for it. I really want our triumph to be rubbed in EVERY objector's face. And when my time comes to get married, I will take out a HUGE wedding announcement in the NYT like my family members have done over the yrs. I really want EVERY religious repuke to be annoyed, "insulted", to feel not so morally superior any longer. I want them to face the fact that they are just small.
    Also place a huge wedding announcement in the Washington Post as well so you can aggravate every narrow minded bible thumping screwball from inside the Beltway. Please keep in mind that the Washington Post is the go-to big city paper for most of the denizens of impoverished Appalachia, a mountainous region that is loaded with narrow minded bible thumping screwballs. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Jun 28, 2015 1:53 PM GMT
    Musclefetish saidLOL....I couldn't be happier that we, the same tax paying citizenry, finally have the same rights as the rest!

    But there is a small part of me that almost wants our marriage to stand out from the breeder population. I want this in all of the religious right wing repukes's faces. I want them to know that we have the EXACT same benefits of their once morally superior cult(s).

    I know that seems vindictive. I make no apologies for it. I really want our triumph to be rubbed in EVERY objector's face. And when my time comes to get married, I will take out a HUGE wedding announcement in the NYT like my family members have done over the yrs. I really want EVERY religious repuke to be annoyed, "insulted", to feel not so morally superior any longer. I want them to face the fact that they are just small.

    I feel your emotions, and I'm of 2 minds on this. I certainly hate the religious right. But when you say "breeders", well...

    My parents were breeders, who gave life to me. And I honor their memories (not that we didn't fight like cats & dogs at times).

    I was a breeder myself, have 2 sons. One serving in the US Air Force. Following a family tradition of military service in this land that goes back unbroken over 350 years to colonial times.

    If it weren't for breeders none of us would be here. So I don't like to use that word myself, has negative overtones I don't support. And is disrespectful to my parents, grandparents, and so on.

    As for same-sex marriage & relationships, I think setting an enviable example is better than overtly flaunting. Actually I've been doing this for years, with BFs and with my late partner, that I continue today with my second partner.

    I may have been in deep denial to myself for half my life, but once I came out I hid nothing. BFs who were still in the closet, and expected me to be, too, didn't last with me.

    And it's in simple & subtle ways you communicate that intimate gay status to other people. You don't need to flash a certificate in front of their faces. It comes indirectly in conversational references, said casually & off-hand, like a straight couple would. Or maybe in an introduction at a party or event: "This is my husband...", spoken just as relaxed & unperturbed as if I had said: "This is my wife...".

    It's when you normalize being gay and being in a same-sex relationship that you demonstrate to straights how much like them we are. Not by rubbing their noses in it. When they see us being ordinary people, which of course we really are, the acceptance follows very quickly.
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    Jun 28, 2015 2:11 PM GMT
    ^^^^

    I certainly don't need nor want a lesson in etiquette from you. It has not been the Gay population that has called being Gay; immoral, unnatural, sick, "sinful"
    It's been the breeders.

    I don't know why "breeders" is an offensive term. Simply what those that have children are. My parents included. As for you taking it personally? That's your problem.
    I can kind of see why a guy of your generation got married and pretended to be straight. But what I can't abide, nor even contemplate, is why you didn't have the stones not to bring children into this world. Into a family that wasn't genuine. (Not implying at all that you should regret your children. I'm sure they are, [at least I hope they are], Gay friendly.)

    There is nothing to normalize about being Gay. It's as normal to me as not being Gay is normal to non-Gays. We have been here forever. So I have no problem pushing their faces in it a bit. I want them to feel uncomfortable for a while.

  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Jun 28, 2015 2:30 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    Musclefetish saidLOL....I couldn't be happier that we, the same tax paying citizenry, finally have the same rights as the rest!

    But there is a small part of me that almost wants our marriage to stand out from the breeder population. I want this in all of the religious right wing repukes's faces. I want them to know that we have the EXACT same benefits of their once morally superior cult(s).

    I know that seems vindictive. I make no apologies for it. I really want our triumph to be rubbed in EVERY objector's face. And when my time comes to get married, I will take out a HUGE wedding announcement in the NYT like my family members have done over the yrs. I really want EVERY religious repuke to be annoyed, "insulted", to feel not so morally superior any longer. I want them to face the fact that they are just small.

    I feel your emotions, and I'm of 2 minds on this. I certainly hate the religious right. But when you say "breeders", well...

    My parents were breeders, who gave life to me. And I honor their memories (not that we didn't fight like cats & dogs at times).

    I was a breeder myself, have 2 sons. One serving in the US Air Force. Following a family tradition of military service in this land that goes back unbroken over 350 years to colonial times.

    If it weren't for breeders none of us would be here. So I don't like to use that word myself, has negative overtones I don't support. And is disrespectful to my parents, grandparents, and so on.

    As for same-sex marriage & relationships, I think setting an enviable example is better than overtly flaunting. Actually I've been doing this for years, with BFs and with my late partner, that I continue today with my second partner.

    I may have been in deep denial to myself for half my life, but once I came out I hid nothing. BFs who were still in the closet, and expected me to be, too, didn't last with me.

    And it's in simple & subtle ways you communicate that intimate gay status to other people. You don't need to flash a certificate in front of their faces. It comes indirectly in conversational references, said casually & off-hand, like a straight couple would. Or maybe in an introduction at a party or event: "This is my husband...", spoken just as relaxed & unperturbed as if I had said: "This is my wife...".

    It's when you normalize being gay and being in a same-sex relationship that you demonstrate to straights how much like them we are. Not by rubbing their noses in it. When they see us being ordinary people, which of course we really are, the acceptance follows very quickly.


    "Breeders" and "marriage". Hmmmm...

    (1) "If it weren't for breeders none of us would be here." But that's got almost nothing to do with "marriage", right? 2012 figures show 40.7% of births in the U.S. were "out of wedlock", and 40.6% in the UK in 2013 (note how almost incredibly identical those two figures are..in two different countries?). In Sweden and Norway, that figure is approaching.... 80%.

    So let's dump the conflation of "marriage" and "breeding". If you go back 500 years... then 1,000 years....then 15,000 years...how many of us do you think were born...."in wedlock"?

    (2) "It's when you normalize being gay and being in a same-sex relationship that you demonstrate to straights how much like them we are." And there it is: the fatal flaw.

    "Being gay" was only ever secondarily (at best) about sex (men have been fucking men since time immemorial). "Being gay" was about being "not like THEM."

    "Not" like their binary, patriarchal, woman-debasing, cheating, lying, dominating, "all about my property" fucked-up power structures. It was about rejecting "their notion of what is normal", and being able to be accepted as "not like you", and being fine with that. It was bout being "not YOUR normal" and insisting it was just as good or, yes, better than "THEIR normal."

    Yet.... here we have it: Victory! Equality! I wonder how long it will take us to become... just....like....them.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14336

    Jun 28, 2015 2:31 PM GMT
    Musclefetish said^^^^

    I certainly don't need nor want a lesson in etiquette from you. It has not been the Gay population that has called being Gay; immoral, unnatural, sick, "sinful"
    It's been the breeders.

    I don't know why "breeders" is an offensive term. Simply what those that have children are. My parents included. As for you taking it personally? That's your problem.
    I can kind of see why a guy of your generation got married and pretended to be straight. But what I can't abide, nor even contemplate, is why you didn't have the stones not to bring children into this world. Into a family that wasn't genuine. (Not implying at all that you should regret your children. I'm sure they are, [at least I hope they are], Gay friendly.)

    There is nothing to normalize about being Gay. It's as normal to me as not being Gay is normal to non-Gays. We have been here forever. So I have no problem pushing their faces in it a bit. I want them to feel uncomfortable for a while.

    Also keep in mind that homosexuality exists in almost all forms of Mammal life. It is definitely not unnatural. But all the narrow minded bible thumping screwballs are scared shitless of scientific facts so they instead stick their empty heads into the mud or sand depending on the locale. Go figure.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19127

    Jun 28, 2015 3:04 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidIn due time this will eventually happen. Marriage will simply mean marriage. However this is going to take time.

    ^^^^THIS^^^^

    Regarding the use of the term "Breeders", I don't necessarily find it offensive, but using that term, in my opinion, does come off as condescending bordering on disrespectful. Not real crazy about gays being referred to as "fudge packers" or "cock suckers" either.
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    Jun 28, 2015 4:34 PM GMT
    WrestlerBoy said.. I wonder how long it will take us to become just like them


    we are already there:

    -dont never think your parents, if they married & divorced several time, each time gave it the big effort.

    -no matter how old we are, we drag our parents with us all through our lives.



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    Jun 28, 2015 5:21 PM GMT
    WrestlerBoy said
    Art_Deco said
    Musclefetish saidLOL....I couldn't be happier that we, the same tax paying citizenry, finally have the same rights as the rest!

    But there is a small part of me that almost wants our marriage to stand out from the breeder population. I want this in all of the religious right wing repukes's faces. I want them to know that we have the EXACT same benefits of their once morally superior cult(s).

    I know that seems vindictive. I make no apologies for it. I really want our triumph to be rubbed in EVERY objector's face. And when my time comes to get married, I will take out a HUGE wedding announcement in the NYT like my family members have done over the yrs. I really want EVERY religious repuke to be annoyed, "insulted", to feel not so morally superior any longer. I want them to face the fact that they are just small.

    I feel your emotions, and I'm of 2 minds on this. I certainly hate the religious right. But when you say "breeders", well...

    My parents were breeders, who gave life to me. And I honor their memories (not that we didn't fight like cats & dogs at times).

    I was a breeder myself, have 2 sons. One serving in the US Air Force. Following a family tradition of military service in this land that goes back unbroken over 350 years to colonial times.

    If it weren't for breeders none of us would be here. So I don't like to use that word myself, has negative overtones I don't support. And is disrespectful to my parents, grandparents, and so on.

    As for same-sex marriage & relationships, I think setting an enviable example is better than overtly flaunting. Actually I've been doing this for years, with BFs and with my late partner, that I continue today with my second partner.

    I may have been in deep denial to myself for half my life, but once I came out I hid nothing. BFs who were still in the closet, and expected me to be, too, didn't last with me.

    And it's in simple & subtle ways you communicate that intimate gay status to other people. You don't need to flash a certificate in front of their faces. It comes indirectly in conversational references, said casually & off-hand, like a straight couple would. Or maybe in an introduction at a party or event: "This is my husband...", spoken just as relaxed & unperturbed as if I had said: "This is my wife...".

    It's when you normalize being gay and being in a same-sex relationship that you demonstrate to straights how much like them we are. Not by rubbing their noses in it. When they see us being ordinary people, which of course we really are, the acceptance follows very quickly.


    "Breeders" and "marriage". Hmmmm...

    (1) "If it weren't for breeders none of us would be here." But that's got almost nothing to do with "marriage", right? 2012 figures show 40.7% of births in the U.S. were "out of wedlock", and 40.6% in the UK in 2013 (note how almost incredibly identical those two figures are..in two different countries?). In Sweden and Norway, that figure is approaching.... 80%.

    So let's dump the conflation of "marriage" and "breeding". If you go back 500 years... then 1,000 years....then 15,000 years...how many of us do you think were born...."in wedlock"?

    (2) "It's when you normalize being gay and being in a same-sex relationship that you demonstrate to straights how much like them we are." And there it is: the fatal flaw.

    "Being gay" was only ever secondarily (at best) about sex (men have been fucking men since time immemorial). "Being gay" was about being "not like THEM."

    "Not" like their binary, patriarchal, woman-debasing, cheating, lying, dominating, "all about my property" fucked-up power structures. It was about rejecting "their notion of what is normal", and being able to be accepted as "not like you", and being fine with that. It was bout being "not YOUR normal" and insisting it was just as good or, yes, better than "THEIR normal."

    Yet.... here we have it: Victory! Equality! I wonder how long it will take us to become... just....like....them.


    A little phlegmatic, perhaps, WB, but accurate nevertheless. I also like the prior comment about the other side defining gay marriage. I'll define my own terms, TYVM, no matter where they fall on the political spectrum, as long as they're rationally placed there.

    Careful with the revenge factor, MF; you're fulfilling Justice Alito's "turnabout is fair play" prediction. And, not surprised at all to see Artless fessing up to his hatred for yet another group he disagrees with. Takes one to know one, to keep the proverbs flowing.
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    Jun 28, 2015 6:07 PM GMT
    ^^
    "Careful" nothing you fat repuke douchebag. You and the other pcs of shit repukes on here need to get lost.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 28, 2015 6:32 PM GMT
    Musclefetish said^^
    "Careful" nothing you fat repuke douchebag. You and the other pcs of shit repukes on here need to get lost.


    Here's some more advice: change your handle to "Angerfetish." icon_biggrin.gif