The problems with second guessing history

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 26, 2015 5:34 PM GMT
    And so it begins.

    The Democrat Party in Connecticut said this week that it has scrubbed the names Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson from its annual fundraising dinner. The reasons? Jackson and Jefferson were slaveholders, and Jackson fought Native Americans.


    http://www.newsday.com/opinion/columnists/william-f-b-o-reilly/democrats-tiptoe-into-dangerous-territory-1.10674029

  • ASHDOD

    Posts: 1057

    Jul 26, 2015 6:28 PM GMT
    well ,werent they? icon_eek.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 26, 2015 6:50 PM GMT
    Ashdod saidwell ,werent they? icon_eek.gif


    Yes, and?
  • ASHDOD

    Posts: 1057

    Jul 26, 2015 7:03 PM GMT


    i guess its a problem with almost every historic figure , in their times things that are now considered bad were fine.... i guess it depends how much they contribute and how they would behave if they live nowadays.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 26, 2015 7:15 PM GMT
    desertmuscl saidThe Democrat Party in Connecticut said this week that it has scrubbed the names Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson from its annual fundraising dinner.


    I'm a little surprised they were invited, being dead'n all.

    [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson%E2%80%93Jackson_Day[/url]
    Jefferson–Jackson Day is the annual fundraising celebration (dinner) held by Democratic Party organizations in the United States. It is named for Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson; the Party says they are its founders...

    ...Many state Democratic Parties have used the day to highlight local party leaders. For example:
    the Democratic Party of Mississippi also honors civil rights leader Fannie Lou Hamer, with a Jefferson–Jackson–Hamer celebration,[3]
    the Democratic State Central Committee of Connecticut holds "Jefferson–Jackson–Bailey Day" in honor of state Democratic boss and Democratic National Committee Chairman John Moran Bailey.
    Florida Democratic Party renamed their key dinner event "Leadership Blue"
    Wisconsin Democrats renamed their dinner the "Founders' Day Gala." Minnesota Democrats renamed theirs the "DFL Founders Day Dinner."

    The candidates are forbidden to use notes or teleprompters in their speeches.


    Okay, well at first glance it did sound pretty stupid other than as a gimmick to get a conversation going and then to look at it further, this dinner naming does seem to have that aspect to it. Seems the name is not held sacrosanct, nor is its Republican counterpart which also goes by various names depending on where celebrated.

    So as dumb as I might think it, if not a practice, I could understand them honoring a request to make a point. Certainly not the out of whack, big deal Republicans are sure to try to make of this.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Jul 26, 2015 7:21 PM GMT
    please, in 1735, half the state of Connecticut was out killing Indians - on the bright side, now they have a really big casino icon_lol.gif
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Jul 27, 2015 12:31 AM GMT


    It's pretty obvious I'm the only commenter so far who's taken time to read the article. If they had they'd understand what a slippery slope this idiotic decision by Democrats in Connecticut is.

    This is Political Correctness morphed into Political Revisionist History: Make up your own fucking fairy tale to fit you own bullshit ideology.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 27, 2015 1:01 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidplease, in 1735, half the state of Connecticut was out killing Indians - on the bright side, now they have a really big casino icon_lol.gif


    Two really big casinos.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 27, 2015 1:33 AM GMT
    bobbobbob saidIt's pretty obvious I'm the only commenter so far who's taken time to read the article. If they had they'd understand what a slippery slope this idiotic decision by Democrats in Connecticut is.

    This is Political Correctness morphed into Political Revisionist History: Make up your own fucking fairy tale to fit you own bullshit ideology.




    Thank you. My thought was if we were to proceed with this line of reasoning we will need to modify Mount Rushmore and various other objectionable monuments. There is at least one inappropriate face on Mt Rushmore that could be erased. The Taliban have led the way in sniffing out untidy bits of history and we could perhaps learn from them:

    699771.jpg
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Jul 27, 2015 1:47 AM GMT
    desertmuscl said
    bobbobbob saidIt's pretty obvious I'm the only commenter so far who's taken time to read the article. If they had they'd understand what a slippery slope this idiotic decision by Democrats in Connecticut is.

    This is Political Correctness morphed into Political Revisionist History: Make up your own fucking fairy tale to fit you own bullshit ideology.




    Thank you. My thought was if we were to proceed with this line of reasoning we will need to modify Mount Rushmore and various other objectionable monuments. There is at least one inappropriate face on Mt Rushmore that could be erased. The Taliban have led the way in sniffing out untidy bits of history and we could perhaps learn from them:

    699771.jpg


    Yep! There's a good essay written over 2000 years ago on how everything taken to excess turns into it's opposite... This is a great example of it. Liberalism morphs into the ideological intolerant Taliban..

    Rushmore...
    Jefferson and Washington would have to be removed since both were slave owners...
    At the same time the Civil War was going on Lincoln was had army in the territories west of Minnesota fighting Indians so he needs to be gone... Roosevelt started a war with Nicaragua to take part of their nation away to make a new one for his Panama Canal.. so he needs to go...

  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    Jul 27, 2015 2:05 AM GMT
    It won't be long before we scrub the likes of Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Genghis Khan, Ramses II, Alexander the Great, a multitude of Medieval monarchs, Thutmose III, Christopher Columbus, the Aztec, the Mayan, Chinese emperors, General Sherman, a number of US presidents, the British for the Opium Wars, and whoever else has done bad deeds from the history books. icon_rolleyes.gif

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 27, 2015 3:08 AM GMT
    To me this is very similar to my concerns around the call to boycott of Chick-Fil-A, or the pulling out of endorsements from Trump and athletes over controversies. Yes you want to stand up for equality, morality, fair treatment of people etc. But these topics are a bit complicated and interconnected. If we're honest, few people and organizations are all good or all bad as there are a litany of topics. This is my beef with our current 2 party system where you're encouraged to pick a party when there are tens of topics up for consideration.

  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Jul 27, 2015 4:34 AM GMT
    bobbobbob saidIt's pretty obvious I'm the only commenter so far who's taken time to read the article. If they had they'd understand what a slippery slope this idiotic decision by Democrats in Connecticut is.

    This is Political Correctness morphed into Political Revisionist History: Make up your own fucking fairy tale to fit you own bullshit ideology.




    desertmuscl saidThank you. My thought was if we were to proceed with this line of reasoning we will need to modify Mount Rushmore and various other objectionable monuments. There is at least one inappropriate face on Mt Rushmore that could be erased. The Taliban have led the way in sniffing out untidy bits of history and we could perhaps learn from them:


    bobbobbob said Yep! There's a good essay written over 2000 years ago on how everything taken to excess turns into it's opposite... This is a great example of it. Liberalism morphs into the ideological intolerant Taliban..


    I've been looking for an online translation of the piece Cicero wrote on things take to their excess and haven't found it yet. It's really very applicable to this. It starts off with "iubet Platone ut a nimiam animi licentiam vocant libertatem..... " (Plato tells us from the exaggerated license people call liberty..... )

    Here's what inspired Cicero..
    PlatoExcess generally causes reaction, and produces a change in the opposite direction, whether it be in the seasons, or in individuals, or in governments.


    I don't know why I can't remember it.
    It's only been 49 years since I translated it in Mrs. Bremer's Latin III class at Sun Prairie High School.


    LOL.

  • mar0302

    Posts: 273

    Jul 27, 2015 4:48 AM GMT
    sunjbill said
    woodfordr saidTo me this is very similar to my concerns around the call to boycott of Chick-Fil-A, or the pulling out of endorsements from Trump and athletes over controversies. Yes you want to stand up for equality, morality, fair treatment of people etc. But these topics are a bit complicated and interconnected. If we're honest, few people and organizations are all good or all bad as there are a litany of topics. This is my beef with our current 2 party system where you're encouraged to pick a party when there are tens of topics up for consideration.



    THIS!


    Perhaps a better solution would be to take some time out to recognise the good and the bad in the conference, rather than just throw them out..
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Jul 27, 2015 7:27 AM GMT
    woodfordr saidTo me this is very similar to my concerns around the call to boycott of Chick-Fil-A, or the pulling out of endorsements from Trump and athletes over controversies. Yes you want to stand up for equality, morality, fair treatment of people etc. But these topics are a bit complicated and interconnected. If we're honest, few people and organizations are all good or all bad as there are a litany of topics. This is my beef with our current 2 party system where you're encouraged to pick a party when there are tens of topics up for consideration.


    This gets even more complicated in the election process by the way so many people have evolved into single issue voters which makes them easy for politicians to manipulate with bullshit promises they never keep... Retrain (educate) voters to get out of the single issue mentality and politicians will have no choice but to do the same.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Jul 27, 2015 5:02 PM GMT
    It's one irrelevant local party dinner. Who cares?

    The paranoid "slippery slope" hysterics from modern day conservatives over little things is hilarious. This party can't muster any outrage about lives ended by bad cops, but they'll whine, cry and wet their pants about the name of dinner nobody gives a shit about? Get a grip, babies!
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Jul 27, 2015 8:15 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete saidIt's one irrelevant local party dinner. Who cares?

    The paranoid "slippery slope" hysterics from modern day conservatives over little things is hilarious. This party can't muster any outrage about lives ended by bad cops, but they'll whine, cry and wet their pants about the name of dinner nobody gives a shit about? Get a grip, babies!


    Hahahhahhaha! Okay you want to play it that way?

    It wasn't one irrelevant party but the whole Democratic/Progressive/socialist hen house that was squawking about Marco Rubio's wife having 14 traffic tickets and him having THREE in seventeen years.

    It was that same whole Democratic/Progressive/socialist hen house that was squawking about Marco Rubio paying $80,000 for a puny 19 foot fishing boat while some jackass from Massachusetts who took James Taylor to France to sing a song after Charlie Hebdo has been evading taxes on his TWO MILLION DOLLAR yacht for more than 10 years by keeping it docked in Rhode Island.

    Oh yeah. let's not forget that this same petty sacks of crap were criticizing Rubio FOR THE NUMBER OF WINDOWS HE HAD IN HIS HOUSE.....

    All that's JUST examples of ONE outbreak of liberal hen house psychosis... Don't come around here trying to act like some high and mighty self righteous something that you're not when the same type shit you're dumping on others is the same shit up to your own knees and you just forgot to look down.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 27, 2015 10:35 PM GMT
    Mankind is evolving. Things that were common place and acceptable decades and centuries ago are now unacceptable. Things we do today may very well be abhorrent to future generations. I just hope they are more understanding of us than we are of our ancestors.

    What people fail to remember is that there was more than enough blame to go around for the slave trade as there were both black and white slave traders and slave owners.
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2937

    Jul 27, 2015 11:57 PM GMT
    Amazingly stupid move. To a point, PC is shorthand for showing respect for anther person/group. But this is way, way beyond intelligence or good manners.
  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Jul 28, 2015 1:50 AM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidMankind is evolving. Things that were common place and acceptable decades and centuries ago are now unacceptable. Things we do today may very well be abhorrent to future generations. I just hope they are more understanding of us than we are of our ancestors.

    What people fail to remember is that there was more than enough blame to go around for the slave trade as there were both black and white slave traders and slave owners.


    .... And slave trade and ownership goes on TO THIS DAY in Africa.... but of course, there's no one wants to talk about that...

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2015 3:39 AM GMT
    bobbobbob said
    UndercoverMan saidMankind is evolving. Things that were common place and acceptable decades and centuries ago are now unacceptable. Things we do today may very well be abhorrent to future generations. I just hope they are more understanding of us than we are of our ancestors.

    What people fail to remember is that there was more than enough blame to go around for the slave trade as there were both black and white slave traders and slave owners.


    .... And slave trade and ownership goes on TO THIS DAY in Africa.... but of course, there's no one wants to talk about that...




    More word vomit. Show me the books, movies, statues, and flags waving for the heritage and celebrating the honor of the black slave owners like it does for non-black slave owners. If the blame is to be shared, should not the glory be shared as well? Does the confederate flag wave for the black slave owner too?

    I want to be clear, I am all for moving on and running with the baton given to you instead of being mired in the past. And I also don't believe that people who do bad/dumb things are all bad or all dumb. But, the empathy gavel doesn't clang the same way on here for grievances of race as it does for grievances of orientation. There were and are plenty of closeted gay people who vote against gay rights. I don't see any posts on here asking for "understanding" for them when history is written. We don't even ask for "understanding" of Republicans on here.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2015 4:02 AM GMT
    woodfordr saidMore word vomit.
    I was just checking this thread to see where it's evolved.

    Judging by your all-inclusive statement there, I have reason to believe it's evolved into a typical RJ thread. icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 28, 2015 4:17 AM GMT
    bobbobbob said
    This is Political Correctness morphed into Political Revisionist History: Make up your own fucking fairy tale to fit you own bullshit ideology.

    Oh, you mean like the Texas state board that's rewritten school textbooks to mirror a distorted, revisionist Conservative political view of US history, that no credible historians endorse?
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Jul 28, 2015 5:10 AM GMT
    bobbobbob said
    bobbobbob saidIt's pretty obvious I'm the only commenter so far who's taken time to read the article. If they had they'd understand what a slippery slope this idiotic decision by Democrats in Connecticut is.

    This is Political Correctness morphed into Political Revisionist History: Make up your own fucking fairy tale to fit you own bullshit ideology.




    desertmuscl saidThank you. My thought was if we were to proceed with this line of reasoning we will need to modify Mount Rushmore and various other objectionable monuments. There is at least one inappropriate face on Mt Rushmore that could be erased. The Taliban have led the way in sniffing out untidy bits of history and we could perhaps learn from them:


    bobbobbob said Yep! There's a good essay written over 2000 years ago on how everything taken to excess turns into it's opposite... This is a great example of it. Liberalism morphs into the ideological intolerant Taliban..


    I've been looking for an online translation of the piece Cicero wrote on things take to their excess and haven't found it yet. It's really very applicable to this. It starts off with "iubet Platone ut a nimiam animi licentiam vocant libertatem..... " (Plato tells us from the exaggerated license people call liberty..... )

    Here's what inspired Cicero..
    PlatoExcess generally causes reaction, and produces a change in the opposite direction, whether it be in the seasons, or in individuals, or in governments.


    I don't know why I can't remember it.
    It's only been 49 years since I translated it in Mrs. Bremer's Latin III class at Sun Prairie High School.


    LOL.



    Cicero didn't write "a piece on things take to their excess", he wrote "a piece" called "De re publica", ("On the Republic" or "Commonwealth"), and you're trying to reference the dialogue between Laelius and Scipio in its Book II, where they quote Plato, from HIS "Republic".

    http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/546

    That seems to be a halfway decent "translation". Knock yourself out icon_biggrin.gif


  • bobbobbob

    Posts: 2812

    Jul 28, 2015 5:12 AM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    bobbobbob said
    This is Political Correctness morphed into Political Revisionist History: Make up your own fucking fairy tale to fit you own bullshit ideology.

    Oh, you mean like the Texas state board that's rewritten school textbooks to mirror a distorted, revisionist Conservative political view of US history, that no credible historians endorse?


    Yeah .. sort of like the way when you pass out drunk sitting at the desk and bang your head on the floor it morphs into an Epileptic seizure when you tell about it.