Do you think that life --and our lives-- are just a complete random occurance?

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    Jan 30, 2009 10:58 AM GMT
    I think it's the devil's work for us to think and feel that way.
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    Jan 30, 2009 2:36 PM GMT
    Weird comment about the devil.

    I believe that there are too many coincidences for this all to be a random occurrence, but I do think it's a combination of science and spirit. Things like soulmates & deja vu can be incredibly powerful. I don't know why the floating set of molecules that is my bf is someone I want to be around forever, but that's what it is.

    If you've seen 'Signs', I subscribe to that theory (but always questioning my beliefs in general - I think that's healthy).
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    Jan 30, 2009 4:28 PM GMT

    Funny, I just saw a rather dull public clip on Facebook called "Signs" early today...

    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=46809763745&ref=nf

    ...or the Mel Gibson movie?
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    Jan 30, 2009 5:59 PM GMT
    ZiMsTeR said
    Funny, I just saw a rather dull public clip on Facebook called "Signs" early today...

    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=46809763745&ref=nf

    ...or the Mel Gibson movie?


    Yeah I saw that on Facebook today too! (and added it to my profile - cute short film).

    But I meant M Night Shamalan's, yes...
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    Jan 30, 2009 6:07 PM GMT
    The WEASEL word in this one is "random" which means that events are independent, uncorrelated, distinct.

    In fact, our lives are highly correlated! It may have plenty of spontaneity, but because I'm an individual localized in the world, there is a powerful continuity condition that disintegrates this notion of "randomness".
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    Jan 30, 2009 7:12 PM GMT
    random |ˈrandəm|
    adjective
    made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.

    it is intellectually dishonest to think that life, the world, the universe, or existence is anything but a random occurrence.

    this makes everything that more beautiful and deserving of having worth when it is in existence.

    this is it. enjoy it while its here. i am.
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    Jan 30, 2009 7:35 PM GMT
    blinktwice4y saidit is intellectually dishonest to think that life, the world, the universe, or existence is anything but a random occurrence.


    In truth, I don't think "random occurrence" is really well-specified enough to debate :-( I just think it is a bit weaselly, that's all.

    If you mean that the existence of life is a "fluctuation", then I agree, but just as many systems in nature proceed to a state of self-organization through a random series of microstates, I think it's more relevant (at least from my view as a scientist) to discuss the question: within the constraints of the universe, how likely is "life" to occur within a certain timeframe? Science probably isn't capable at the moment of really answering this question.

    Our lives on the other hand are quite another matter. Even if individually our *existence* has a certain randomness to it (although again random is only valid within the phase space that is greatly constrained by the prior constraint of the existence of our parents), our lives really do not fit the definition of random as I discussed.
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    Jan 30, 2009 8:08 PM GMT
    im not speaking to organization.
    im speaking to how i defined "random" as to no conscious effort or decision is made.

    the fact that life has occurred at least once and speculated to have occurred more than once on this planet alone shows that it really isn't all that unlikely.

    life is merely an emergent property of random occurrences of inanimate objects that evolve to have the ability to organize and replicate.

    if you are proposing that life is not a random occurrence please state the method as to how a conscious decision is made to have created life.


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    Jan 30, 2009 8:12 PM GMT

    Dear blinktwice4y,

    Please go away.

    Love,
    FBfugitive



    icon_lol.gif

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    Jan 30, 2009 8:17 PM GMT
    zim,
    get out of the bitter brothel.
    i agree with you now that RJ has seen better days.

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    Jan 30, 2009 8:20 PM GMT

    Spirituality doesn't become you. Apparently. icon_wink.gif
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    Jan 30, 2009 8:24 PM GMT
    An impossible question to answer. There is some "randomness" to every human existence.

    Some of the most important events in one's life could be construed as "random". Which sperm manages to make it the egg is not a pre-planned conscious decision, it just happens. Even the decision for the parents to have sex is not necessarily pre-planned.

    My mom once told me that the only reason I exist is due to too much wine one night in Washington DC (hard to be arrogant when you realize your whole existence could be due to a bad Merlot).

    She also told me she tried to start the lawn mower once even though she suspected she may have been pregnant. She nearly lost the pregnancy. I was the lucky (or unlucky) fetus.

    The older we get, and the more we develop into separate and independent human beings, then the more our actions take out some of the randomness of life.

    I could write pages about such a complex question, but I would bore you to tears, and probably unintentionally start a flame war.

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    Jan 30, 2009 8:26 PM GMT
    Uhhhh zim, banana lumpia is too amazing to be a completely random occurrence. Chicken panang is all the proof that I need that there is a creator. Panang is too fugn' divine to be a random occurrence. Mabuhai!
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    Jan 30, 2009 8:29 PM GMT
    ZiMsTeR said
    Spirituality doesn't become you. Apparently. icon_wink.gif


    i dont subscribe to spirituality. however, i am able to appreciate the beauty, sacredness, and frailty of life and how we should constantly strive to conserve it and appreciate it.

    when i use words like spiritual, soul, or pneuma, i mean them completely restricted to their physical definitions.

    the fact that there is nothing beyond this life does not devalue it. it only makes life here that much more valuable and sacred.

    i champion anyone that works to preserve life and minimize suffering. i just ask that is done for life's sake, not for the after life's.

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    Jan 30, 2009 8:40 PM GMT

    Is this the same blinktwice4y who posted my private e-mail on the public forum? I really think that was distasteful and inappropriate. Sorry I was wrong about admiring you because of Sister Act OST but what you did was totally uncalled for and almost incomprehensible. I'm glad people here know how transparent I am and it all just got ignored. Did that make you a better person?

    Anyway... I'm over it.
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    Jan 30, 2009 8:46 PM GMT
    i believe it was deserved.
    the email was completely uncalled for.
    making a group where you talk shit about other people? no thanks.


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    Jan 30, 2009 8:55 PM GMT

    It.is.not.shit.

    ...but what you did was. Spoke volumes about you.

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    Jan 30, 2009 8:56 PM GMT
    blinktwice4y saidlife is merely an emergent property of random occurrences of inanimate objects that evolve to have the ability to organize and replicate.


    errrr..... this is exactly what I claimed when I said: "many systems in nature proceed to a state of self-organization through a random series of microstates"

    I am pleased we agree.

    The definition of "random" as requiring conscious effort is totally at odds with the statistically motivated one: it seems highly problematic to describe as "random" an emergent property that is an *inevitable* result of processes that nonetheless might be strictly random in themselves.
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    Jan 30, 2009 9:22 PM GMT
    I don't think life is random in so much that it will just "happen" but that life, in the universe is suppose to exist.. but not because of some divine intervention but because I think that the universe needs life as much as life needs the universe and that the two can not exist without each other..

    but.. dats just my thoughts.. I wanna go back to bed!
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    Jan 30, 2009 9:22 PM GMT
    I think the more important question is, what do you believe in otherwise zim?

    Destiny/Fate (Divine or not)?

    And why blame the Devil? icon_rolleyes.gif

    I say yes it is relatively random, if you are using it as a counterpoint against some sort of manipulation (be it by God or through choices).

    Otherwise, as TigerTim says, events are all interconnected. There is always cause and effect, cycles, patterns, etc that it is not at all impossible that if given omniscience, then we could probably predict everything. Problem is we can't know everything which is why there are fields like probability or logic etc. To at least know what little we can by studying patterns or tracing paths and measurable values. It's prediction in a way. Even most of the seemingly spontaneous events that can disrupt patterns, if you look back far enough you'll see they are also part of a larger pattern. So no, probably nothing is 'random' in the scale we are talking about, from the nanosecond-long frantic game of billiards of the smallest of subatomic particles to the billion-year dance of the stars. However, they may be truly random events that spark all of this off, so yes it will still be random in a sense.

    However, belief in supernatural destiny is a different matter. It implies that everything has to follow a set path by the command of someone or something - i.e. set, unchangeable, inevitable, linear. Asides from being a rather blatant contradiction to 'free will' supposedly given by God, it's very easy to fall into false logic with this. A coincidence becomes destiny, a missed or misfired connection from stimulus becomes Deja Vu, a seemingly higher incidence of one event in correlation with another becomes evidence of divine intervention, temporarily unexplainable phenomena become miracles. The fallacy of this, is that we tend to ignore the fact that these happen very rarely.

    One of my sisters and my Mom is kinda like this. They're big believers of Feng Shui and old-wives' tales among other things (as well as being devout Catholics, go figure). For example, if a bird flies into the house, they go frantic trying to let it out because it is said that it's an omen of death. Doesn't matter that in the dozens of times this has happened no one has died soon after.

    Same with soulmates. Whenever we see someone really suited for each other, we say they are soulmates. And yet we ignore the fact that soulmates are probably breaking up with each other everyday, and then we shrug and say 'then they were probably not soulmates'. Don't you see the sheer contradiction in that. How then can you determine soulmates?

    The same false correlation is used in fortune telling. Notice that they use the broadest and most ambiguous terms possible? Ladies and gentlemen, Sylvia Brown:



    The woman who got rich by taking advantage of the gullibility of people.

    And then there are the hippie psychics who tell you of your past lives, that you were Cleopatra in your past reincarnation. I mean, come on! She probably says that to everyone she 'mediums' for, because she knows no other historical figure other than Cleopatra and Jesus Christ. And then there's the erm.. postponed doomsday prophecies, the elaborate rituals said to bring about a certain event which fails miserably (so they'd have to sacrifice a virgin to appease the gods and do the ritual again), or the daily zodiac predictions which really only fits vaguely (if ever) about once every 2 years, etc.

    Consider one thing. Everything eventually comes back to your own filter of perception. Gullibility often comes from an innate desire to want to believe. Regardless of the fact that there ARE legitimate studies on these, and they may contradict your own deductions.

    Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha

    Note how common sense is also part of it. Not only your own beliefs. Objectivity in wanting to know the truth requires not only others to be honest to you, but you to be honest to yourself.

    If you want to see signs, you will see signs... everywhere! I only hope that you'll realize how ridiculous it is when you start counting the number of blue cars passing by in the span of 5 minutes as indication of how many babies you will have someday, or when you click send on the hundredth make-a-wish-to-Momma-Mary-and-send-this-to-40-other-people-to-make-it-come-true chain emails.
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    Jan 30, 2009 9:23 PM GMT
    Bakejenson saidUhhhh zim, banana lumpia is too amazing to be a completely random occurrence. Chicken panang is all the proof that I need that there is a creator. Panang is too fugn' divine to be a random occurrence. Mabuhai!


    I agree. Totally. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Jan 30, 2009 9:29 PM GMT
    Er... there's no such thing as 'Banana' Lumpia. It's called Turon. icon_rolleyes.gif LOL
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    Jan 30, 2009 9:33 PM GMT

    I just realize that after all this, I should just be worried only about my own salvation. icon_cool.gif
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    Jan 30, 2009 9:40 PM GMT
    Sedative saidEr... there's no such thing as 'Banana' Lumpia. It's called Turon. icon_rolleyes.gif LOL


    Ninang, stop making up words. Next you are going to call my Filipino fried noodles some crazy name like panciticon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jan 30, 2009 9:47 PM GMT
    They're called The Devil's Own. icon_cool.gif ...starring Harrison Ford and Brad Pitt. icon_lol.gif