Spirituality Group Activity (Short Notice): Bart Ehrman will be at Collin County Community College - Frisco tomorrow 9/18, 6:30p

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    Sep 18, 2015 12:57 AM GMT
    For anyone in the Dallas area: On Friday (two days! Sept. 18 ) I will be having a public debate with Justin Bass, a Christian apologist and pastor with a PhD from Dallas Theological, on the question “Did the Historical Jesus Claim To Be Divine?” Dr. Bass thinks the answer is YES. I think the answer is NO. It should be an interesting back and forth. If you want to hear the arguments, come and see it. Free admission. And my arguments will be worth every dime you pay to hear them. (It will be at Collin College at 6:30 pm)

    Here’s all the information you need: https://www.facebook.com/events/1666142046937367/
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    Sep 20, 2015 3:34 AM GMT
    Did the historical Jesus claim to be divine?

    Justin Bass:

    Yes, Jesus claimed to be divine when he did not speak like a prophet who adds to his/her proclamations: "thus saith the Lord."

    The Son of Man is a divine figure. Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man, therefore Jesus was divine.

    Bart Ehrman:

    David and Solomon were each known as a Son of God; and, Enoch was a Son of Man. David, Solmon, and Enoch must also be divine.

    In the Gospel of John, Jesus makes I am statements, such as before Abraham, I am ( Jn 8: 58 ). This is unlikely to be historical because Jesus does not make that statement in the Synoptic Gospels.

    Justin Bass

    Back to the authority of the historical Jesus, not seen in prophets: Jesus has the authority to change Passover into Communion.

    Steefen (youtube video producer, WBFbySteefen)

    The biblical Jesus of the gospels written after Jesus foresaw the destruction of the Temple by Rome in the context of the defeat of the Jewish Revolt and after Jesus spoke the parable of the Wicked Tenant Farmers saw a diminished or defeated God of the Israelites. Power abhors a vacuum. That is where Jesus' authority came from, not because he was God but because he saw the God of the Israelites could not get respect for the prophets or the son.

    Jesus' authority came from an atheistic stand against his former God. In the Wicked Tenants: God abandoned/forsook the Jews. In response Jesus taught "body and blood" remembrance despite or because of Leviticus 17: 10. What would an atheistic stand against the God of the Torah look like? God, turn your face away from me; and, I do not want to have anything else to do with your people.

    ("I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people." - Leviticus 17: 10 )

    Not only did Jesus reject God's face and people, he saw that when scriptures are fulfilled, there isn't reward but punishment for those who believed in them.

    "For these days are the [days] of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled." Luke 21: 22

    Bart Ehrman

    Jesus did not claim to be the Son of Man.

    Steefen

    Your apocalyptic prophet did not claim to be the Son of Man?
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    Sep 23, 2015 1:40 AM GMT
    Steefen

    Your apocalyptic prophet did not claim to be the Son of Man?

    Bart Ehrman

    No indeed! I talk about this at length in a number of my books.
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    Sep 24, 2015 9:12 AM GMT
    StephenOABC saidSteefen

    Your apocalyptic prophet did not claim to be the Son of Man?

    Bart Ehrman

    No indeed! I talk about this at length in a number of my books.


    Steefen

    The one clash there is about the debate of whether or not Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man appears in the Gospel of John. It is the recording of Jesus asking the blind man he healed of blindness, Do you believe in the Son of Man ... the one who is speaking with you is he. In the Bass-Ehrman debate, Ehrman discredits the historicity of some of the self-identity statements of Jesus in the gospel of John on the grounds that these statements were not used by Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels. "The one who is speaking with you is the Son of Man" is probably a statement not spoken by the historical Jesus.

    This draws a distinction between the Son of Man and the international messiah of Zechariah. An international messiah would rank higher than a king. If King David or King Solomon or both were sons of god, the international messiah would be a son of god.

    Is there a question of whether or not Jesus saw himself as the international messiah of Zechariah?
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    Sep 24, 2015 9:25 AM GMT
    Another Person Who Attended the Debate

    Bart,
    My favorite part was when, in his zeal to refute you, your opponent wandered into the Sibellian heresy. It’s not easy to find that kind of entertainment these days!

    More seriously, his assertion that everything in the Gospels passes historical muster, save the zombie apocalypse, left me gobsmacked. I think it was brilliant of you to ask the question. I wonder if you were also surprised by the answer.

    Bart Ehrman

    Yeah, I’m afraid he hasn’t thought through that one….



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    Sep 25, 2015 11:56 PM GMT
    StephenOABC said
    StephenOABC saidSteefen

    Your apocalyptic prophet did not claim to be the Son of Man?

    Bart Ehrman

    No indeed! I talk about this at length in a number of my books.


    Steefen

    The one clash there is about the debate of whether or not Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man appears in the Gospel of John. It is the recording of Jesus asking the blind man he healed of blindness, Do you believe in the Son of Man ... the one who is speaking with you is he. In the Bass-Ehrman debate, Ehrman discredits the historicity of some of the self-identity statements of Jesus in the gospel of John on the grounds that these statements were not used by Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels. "The one who is speaking with you is the Son of Man" is probably a statement not spoken by the historical Jesus.

    This draws a distinction between the Son of Man and the international messiah of Zechariah. An international messiah would rank higher than a king. If King David or King Solomon or both were sons of god, the international messiah would be a son of god.

    Is there a question of whether or not Jesus saw himself as the international messiah of Zechariah?


    Bart Ehrman
    I’m not sure what you mean by international messiah or what texts in Zechariah you’re referring to.

    Steefen
    The international Messiah-King of Zechariah 8: 20-23 and 9: 9-10.
    20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”

    23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

    Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
    Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
    See, your king comes to you,
    righteous and victorious,
    lowly and riding on a donkey,
    on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
    10
    I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
    and the warhorses from Jerusalem,
    and the battle bow will be broken.
    He will proclaim peace to the nations.
    His rule will extend from sea to sea
    and from the River to the ends of the earth.

    These verses could relate to hopes before the mission of Jesus, but the Kingdom of God/Heaven/Righteousness likely under the reign of the Son of Man was picked up in Jesus’ preaching.
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    Sep 26, 2015 1:32 AM GMT
    An identity statement not coming from the Gospel of John but from Luke, chapter 4:

    …17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

    18"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

    19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."…

    20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.…

    21And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."…

    Isaiah 42:1
    "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations [hence, international messiah of justice].
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    Sep 26, 2015 10:45 PM GMT
    Dr. Bart Ehrman

    Ah, OK, thanks. My sense is that Jesus probably did think he was the messiah of that future kingdom.


    Steefen

    It's interesting that Jesus is not presented to the Ancient of Days in the gospels (he only has the Transfiguration) to construct conclusively his identity as one like a son of man in Daniel. That is how one like a son of man is given an international kingdom (Daniel 7: 14).

    "I am statements are in the Gospel of John, not the Synoptics." Not so fast, I say. As I edit my script for a revised version of my youtube video, I think on the important occurrence of Jesus's declaration: "I am." "Are you the Christ, the Son of God?" Jesus, said, "I am."

    In addition to that, he said, you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power. The elders saw that as a sacrilege and they tore their clothes. Man is not supposed to be that close to God. is my take on that. Who are you Job. Where were you Job ...? An earthling sits next to, not the Power of an Empire, not the Power of Earth, not the Power of the Sun and its Solar System, not the Power of the Milky Way Galaxy, ... but the Power of the Observable Universe. HA! It's going to take you 2,000 more years before you can send an un-manned probe to Saturn. You, not a machine can't even leave the solar system but though you've become knowledgeable of far distances does not make you powerful over what you've observed, powerful to maintain it, despite the power of observation in Quantum Physics.

    I am the Christ (anointed one) is bad because the elders could not support that under Roman occupation. I am Christ, son of God is bad, because as you, Dr. Ehrman, have said: a great Jewish king could be a son of God; but again, the elders could not support that under Roman occupation.

    As with Jesus, so with St. Stephen. humanity does not pull up a seat next to God. That's why Jesus and St. Stephen were killed. Man is not great enough to be seated at the right hand of God. Well, why wasn't there criticism against those verses in Daniel? I'd say it was because the verse said one like a human: a real son of man, Icarus, was not to aspire that high.
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    Sep 27, 2015 7:51 PM GMT
    Dear Dr. Ehrman,

    The Gospel of John explicitly has Jesus saying he is the Son of Man because he tells the man he has just healed of blindness: “You have seen him and the one speaking with you is he. [I am the Son of Man.]” The Gospel According to John 9: 35-37. This statement is supported by an implicit statement, with Markan Priority (to a certain degree). "For the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many." Mark 10: 45.

    Flowing the debate, you cannot score a point with the statement: "Jesus did not claim to be the Son of Man."

    In all fairness, you would have had to attack not only John 9: 35-37 but Mark 10: 45 as well.

    If the inference was not to Jesus, himself, who else had come, not to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many?

    We learn from you not just in debates, so please provide your book and chapter that discredits Mark 10: 45.

    We thank you, professor.

    Sincerely and on a Sunday, even,
    Steefen